Glock 21, a hand-full of 45 acp goodness.

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Grin Reaper
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Glock 21, a hand-full of 45 acp goodness.

Post by Grin Reaper » Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:57 pm

Glock 21
I’ve been meaning to write this for a while, as I understand it’s traditional to post soon after the first trip to the range with a new firearm. I’ve taken my new Glock model 21 for 3 outings, all with very positive results.
Mrs. Reaper had asked me what I wanted for Christmas back in November; I told her I just wanted a couple of hundred bucks to spend. So, a week before Christmas, I visited my local gun shop (Smoky Mountain Trader) to pick up the cash for a Ruger Blackhawk 357/9mm I’d had them sell on consignment. The proceeds from that, plus my Xmas cash, put a brand new .45acp Glock model 21 in my hands. I went “old-school” on mine – all black (some might say “tactical black”). There’s nothing wrong with the olive drab ones, they just don’t appeal to me.
Make no mistake about it, this handgun is a hand-full. I have a medium-sized hand, with fingers that are probably just slightly longer than average (I wear a size 8 surgical glove, and can barely squeeze into a medium-sized non-sterile glove).
I was a little apprehensive about firing it, at first. I owned a Glock model 36 (also a .45acp) a few years ago. It was very comfortable to carry, and the grip (sized for the single-column magazine) fit the hand every bit as well as a Commander-sized 1911 does (which is to say, really, really well). However, the felt recoil from this lightweight, short-barreled monster was just short of brutal. It wasn’t just a harsh shove like I was expecting; it actually twisted in the hand with every shot. I sold it to a fellow grad-student for what it cost me, after firing only 100 rounds through it.
Unlike the model 36, the model 21 was a real pleasure to shoot. The extra weight (compared to the model 36) does an excellent job of absorbing the amount of recoil that is perceived by the shooter, and the longer slide keeps some of that weight down front, minimizing muzzle rise. Overall, felt recoil was comparable to that of a full-sized 1911. Very comfortable shooting.
Accuracy was what I’ve come to expect from Glock (this is my 6th): just fine for putting all your rounds into the center mass of a man-sized target at 7-10 yards, even with rapid fire. Accurate enough for us non-pro shooters, but not exactly what the gun-writers call “a tack-driver.” I haven’t posted any measured groups, since I wasn’t firing from a rest. All shooting was done off-hand (Weaver stance, with a few dozen rounds devoted to weak-hand-only).
(Below is the Glock 21 compared to the Kimber CDP II. Although the Glock is considered a full-sized weapon, and the Kimber is the more compact [Commander-sized] 1911 in that company’s product line, they are essentially the same length and height. The Kimber’s width [thickness] is noticeably smaller.)

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Glocks are famous for their reliability, and this one was no exception. Over the course of 3 shooting trips, I’ve put between 350 and 450 rounds of Wolf FMJ, Winchester Silvertip HP, and Remington Golden Saber ammo through it. So far, there has not been a single malfunction of any kind. This is a welcome change from the performance my Kimber CDP-II gave. True, the Kimber was eerily accurate. However, you could count on a failure to feed or a failure to fully extract somewhere between the 6th and 8th magazine with the Kimber (and that was using Wilson Combat mags, not the cheap no-name ones). For reliability, you would be hard-pressed to beat a Glock.
While shooting with my brother-in-law at his rural property, we decided to test our ammunition’s performance against a junked 1956 Chevy that is quietly rusting in the woods about a half-mile from his home. 230 grain Wolf FMJ, I learned, will penetrate the rear quarter-panel, both walls of both wheel-wells, and dimple the quarter-panel on the far side of the trunk at a distance of about 8 or 9 yards. I deeply regret that I didn’t have my camera with me for that outing.

On my most-recent trip to the range, a departing rifleman joked that he was leaving his target at the 100 yard line, in case I wanted to give it a try. Now, I’ve never hunted with a handgun, and I’ve never attempted a shot greater than maybe 50 feet with a pistol. But, since I had the chance, and since the range was, for the moment, deserted (Monday afternoon), I decided to give it a shot. Firing a 230 grain pistol cartridge at a target that far away is as much an exercise in indirect fire as it is in marksmanship. Fortunately, the earth berm behind the target was quite dusty, and I was able to adjust my fire based on the puffs of dirt that showed my initial near-misses. For future reference, a 230 grain Wolf FMJ slug will hit center mass if you aim just over a foot high at 100 yards. I just wish there would have been a steel plate to shoot at. The “clang” that signifies a hit would have been superbly satisfying.
Summary: my experience with the Glock model 21 has been 100% positive. If you are in the market for a reliable sidearm that won’t break you financially, I’d encourage you to give one a try.
I picked up a pre-owned holster at ebay, so I’ll have to post what it feels like to carry it soon. -- Reaper

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Post by mattman42 » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:18 pm

Excellent range report! Glad to know you're satisfied with your Glock. :)

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Rus
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Post by Rus » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:43 pm

Nice write up!

I'm the proud owner of a Glock 21 myself, and am glad to see others have similar experiences.

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Grin Reaper
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Post by Grin Reaper » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:08 pm

My love of the Glock 21 has led to the following question:
Anybody have any experience with the Glock 30? My Glock 21 needs a little companion.

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Post by gapriebe » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:13 pm

Carrying a 21 can be a trial. It weighs so much loaded that a shoulder rig is the only option for me, if I try it on my waist it pulls my pants down!

that said, I love my Old 21 and wouldnt trade it for all the Sigs in Saskatoon, or all the CZ's in Cieziyn, or all the 1911's in Mexico City

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Post by Firedan » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:30 pm

heh heh

My buddy has a Glock 21. He just purchased a 25 round mag, a pistol foregrip that attaches to the picatinny rail and collapseable folding stock that inserts in the hole in the bottom of the Glock. The stock attaches to a sling that lets the whole thing dangle under his arm, right up in his armpit. It is a really sweet set up.

Public service announcement: A 16" barrel will be required to use this set up in compliance with federal law unless you register the weapon as a shortbarreled rifle, which needless to say requires a lot of paperwork. After making a quick phone call, I now know my buddy has both the 16" barrel and the required paperwork, (through his department).
Last edited by Firedan on Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards,

Dan


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Grin Reaper
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Post by Grin Reaper » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:58 pm

I don't quite know what to make of those accessories.
Smart-Ass-Comment-Generator System Failure. Too many options. Overload.

Damn.

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Post by Nightside_Eclipse » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:08 pm

Um.... isn't that illegal EVERYWHERE in the US with that stock on it?!?!
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Rus
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Post by Rus » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:11 pm

Grin Reaper wrote:My love of the Glock 21 has led to the following question:
Anybody have any experience with the Glock 30? My Glock 21 needs a little companion.
Been wondering that myself. Was also thinking of the Glock 36, even though I wouldn't be able to swap mags.

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Rus
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Post by Rus » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:12 am

Grin Reaper wrote:I don't quite know what to make of those accessories.
Smart-Ass-Comment-Generator System Failure. Too many options. Overload.

Damn.
Does look schweet though.

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Post by ais » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:33 am

Firedan wrote:ILLEGAL CONTENT WAS HERE
Just a note, your friend is in violation of federal firearms laws with these modifications.

To my understanding, adding a pistol grip, and/or a stock, to a pistol changes its categorization to SBR/AOW under the current definitions, set by the federal government. Once said modifications are made, a 200 dollar transfer tax is applied, and the appropriate paperwork needs to be filled out to make such a set up legal.

Personally, i don't care if you have a set up like this or not, i'm just saying be wary. If a headstrong ATF agent happens to be a local range when you pick up one of those things and starts asking questions, i don't know. I just think you should be aware of what you're doing when you do it. I still plan on getting one of those grips for my AK, though ;)

[edit]BAD COP! Encouraging this sort of thing! :P[/edit]
Last edited by ais on Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Coal-Cracker » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:08 pm

ais wrote: Just a note, your friend is in violation of federal firearms laws with these modifications.

To my understanding, adding a pistol grip, and/or a stock, to a pistol changes its categorization to SBR/AOW under the current definitions, set by the federal government. Once said modifications are made, a 200 dollar transfer tax is applied, and the appropriate paperwork needs to be filled out to make such a set up legal.[/edit]
Same thing I thought when I saw the picture. I'm not sure if it would be the SBR ($200 tax stamp) or an AOW ($5 tax stamp), though. Either way, you need to go through the hassle of paperwork to stay legal.
ais wrote: Personally, i don't care if you have a set up like this or not, i'm just saying be wary. If a headstrong ATF agent happens to be a local range when you pick up one of those things and starts asking questions, i don't know. I just think you should be aware of what you're doing when you do it. I still plan on getting one of those grips for my AK, though ;)
Agreed. Better to play on the safe side when firearm legality is concerned. I always have a copy of the NFA paperwork/stamp with my select-fire subgun at all times. I keep it in the gun case. Police frequent one of the ranges I shoot at, though I have yet to have a police officer ask to see the paperwork to prove it is legal. (DO NOT take that as encouragment to commit a felony.)
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Post by Sturmwehr » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:18 pm

Coal-Cracker wrote: Same thing I thought when I saw the picture. I'm not sure if it would be the SBR ($200 tax stamp) or an AOW ($5 tax stamp), though. Either way, you need to go through the hassle of paperwork to stay legal.
Actually, since he MADE (illegally, I may add) the AOW, he'd have to pay $200 for a AOW construction - not the $5 transfer fee.

EDIT: Gun laws, jebus...
The AOW is a unique category for the AR-15 as the AR-15 will have a forward and rear pistol grip. An AOW is defined to be "...any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or more, less than 18" in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition." 26 USC sec. 5845(e). The ATF has made the decision that a handgun with more than one grip is an AOW based on the gun a) being concealable and b) not meeting the definition of a "pistol" in the regulations promulgated under the NFA, since they say a pistol has a single grip at an angle to the bore. However, at least one federal court has decided that if the grip is added later, the gun is not "originally designed" to be fired by holding in more than one grip, and thus putting a second grip on a pistol does not make it an AOW.
http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html

I bet the ATF wasn't happy with those rulings. However, legal precident aside, I still wouldn't do it.

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Post by Firedan » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:03 pm

hmmm,

Opps.

Forgot about that whole shortbarreled rifle thing. I will edit the original post so as to not promot this kind of equipment. I should have mentioned that my friend is an LEO as well so he probably has some official paperwork on it. I don't run with a crowd that tries to circumvent the law on a regular basis. I have been edumacated, thank you.
Regards,

Dan


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Post by ais » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:59 pm

Edited my post, as well.

Interesting post on the AOW sturm, i was curious about that, and the ruling does seem to side in our favor, but i doubt explaining that to someone who's rather commited to disarming you, via legal channels, would do much good at the time. Smarter to avoid the situation all togther.

Firedan: Good cop :)
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Post by Grin Reaper » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:44 pm

Damn. Terrorists with box-cutters have hi-jacked the thread!

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Post by Sturmwehr » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:23 pm

Firedan wrote:I will edit the original post so as to not promot this kind of equipment.
I don't think anyone thinks you advocate breaking the law (you're a police officer, afterall! that means you'd have to do more work! :lol: ).

Gun laws are tricky things, and it's easy to very accidentally do something illegal... especially with the legalese that many BATF documents include.

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Post by Brianww2e45 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:59 pm

I have SP89's I was going to pay to make the AOW standard, according to precendent, this is no longer required? Or am I missing something? I REALLY hope so, oh man my hopes are up...

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Post by Sturmwehr » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:04 pm

Brianww2e45 wrote:I have SP89's I was going to pay to make the AOW standard, according to precendent, this is no longer required? Or am I missing something? I REALLY hope so, oh man my hopes are up...
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

That was a ruling on ONE case. That doesn't mean it's legal now. In your area, a judge might side with the ATF. It's STILL illegal unless you pay $200 for the AOW manufacture.

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Post by Brianww2e45 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:09 pm

yea... I just reread the article, I thought it stated precedent was set. Damn....

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Post by Grin Reaper » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:29 pm

Can't believe I left this out. This nut's thread was one of my reasons for the G21 purchase:
Glock 21 Ultimate Torture Test (I think we have a link on AR15.com somehwere on the ZS site, too)
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=8 ... did=462537

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Post by Rus » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:38 pm

Grin Reaper wrote:Can't believe I left this out. This nut's thread was one of my reasons for the G21 purchase:
Glock 21 Ultimate Torture Test (I think we have a link on AR15.com somehwere on the ZS site, too)
http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=8 ... did=462537
Yeah, seen that myself. While I'd never put my Austrian Princess through such an ordeal, it does give me confidence in Glocks in general.

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Post by froggybottom » Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:31 am

Anybody have any experience with the Glock 30?
I am getting ready to purchase my third gun and this one is going to be my carry gun. I have been renting the Glock 30 and I honestly love it.

I have grown to prefer the lighter weight of the plastics over the metal guns and the Glock 30 fits in my hand with a nearly perfect fit. The sights on the 30 line up nice and the white on black high contrast of the sights are easy to see. All in all I found it to be a very comfortable pistol.

As for the 36 I like the slimmer gun but after 100 rounds it starts to hurt my hand a bit. The ergonomics are just not perfect. Besides that it is basically just like the 30.

It will be a few weeks before I commit and I plan on shooting both two more times just to be sure but at the moment I am leaning towards the Glock 30. My dad however prefers the 36 for his carry gun because it is slimmer and easier to carry and he brings up the point that if you need to use it you probably won't need to send 100 rounds through your carry gun.

To each his own. :wink:

Froggy

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Post by Bear_B » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:26 pm

The only difference between the 30 and 36 is one is single stack and the other is double stack... The single stack is a bit slimmer, and thus easier to carry and the double stack is thicker, and to me a bit easier on the wrist to shoot.
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