Saiga 12 vs Remington 870 for Home Defense

[152dbs]

in response to rube79
With out the correct and highly expensive modifications of the Saiga 12, its not worth it. not needed to protect a house

1. You will have to have the BC locked back inorder to load a magazine.load it 1 round less, then its not prob
2. The magazines are Free floating = dont grab = ftfnot sure what ur meaning...never thought a mag was a vertical grip
3. Unless you convert it to a pistol grip it kicks like a mule.nothing is changed in the gas system in the conversion
4. With the modification the magazine changes are 2-3x faster easy.nothing is changed w/ the mags or the mags release in the conversion
5. Must be broke in, because it does not like light loads at first.depends on the shotgun, and how well they did the ports...mine ate everything in site, like a fat kid with a bag of skittles

[rube79]

in response to rube79
With out the correct and highly expensive modifications of the Saiga 12, its not worth it. not needed to protect a house

1. You will have to have the BC locked back inorder to load a magazine.load it 1 round less, then its not prob
2. The magazines are Free floating = dont grab = ftfnot sure what ur meaning...never thought a mag was a vertical grip
3. Unless you convert it to a pistol grip it kicks like a mule.nothing is changed in the gas system in the conversion
4. With the modification the magazine changes are 2-3x faster easy.nothing is changed w/ the mags or the mags release in the conversion
5. Must be broke in, because it does not like light loads at first.depends on the shotgun, and how well they did the ports...mine ate everything in site, like a fat kid with a bag of skittles

I have owned a Saiga 12

152dbs i dont think you have used/owned one. You will be amazed when i clarify what i was trying to say. ( im not the best w/ words )

This is for a non Modified Saiga 12
1. You must have the Bolt carrier locked back/all the way back in order to load a magazine. You can not load it w/ 1 less rd in the magazine, you must have the BC back w/ no rd in the chamber.

2. If you grab the magazine while firing there is a good chance of a failure to feed. Shit happens and chances are that you could fuck up. Using the mag as a VG is easy to do, even on accident. I use my mags as a VG w/ my AK, thus they are not FF mags.

3. The pistol grip adds a new point of contact and does reduce felt recoil on the shoulder.

4. With the proper modification to the mag well, mag reloads are now like your ARs. The BC does not have to be back and the magazine can be full w/ 1 rd in the chamber. This also means that you can place your VG even closer because you dont have an AK mag change.

5. I have shot 3 different new Saiga 12s that did not like light loads. Once broke in, we were able to shoot light loads w/o FTFs.

The Molot Vepr-12 come stock w/ all of these mods, but again we may never have these in the US.

Thats a friend's mod'ed Saiga 12 and its damn near as close to a Vepr-12 as you can get in the US. I wish i had the money for the mods and to short barrel it

[doc savage]

for stopping burgulary, either would do.
for home invasion, i'd want the saiga.
comparing my saiga-12 to my pump guns ( m97 clone, and a mosberg-500...close enough to the 870 for comparison.) i'd take it any day of the week. (you can do a home pistol grip conversion if you're handy with a dremel tool in about an hour. pistol grip, g2, tapco stock, kvar grip bolt, and a press rivet for the trigger guard ,$110 so it's not blindingly out of reach.).

it's damned fast. ( can you bump fire a pump gun?). semi auto = less fumble with slide in the dark in a panic, and faster into action. ( bump the stock on the floor and the BHO releases).
mag changes are fast. ( rack bolt, engage bho, mag swap, tap bolt handle...bang)
come on: 5 ,8, 10 , 12 or 20 round mags? which wins firepower wise?
no frantic combat reload after running dry. 10 rounds loaded, in 3 seconds VS. seven rounds thumbed into the tube one at a time ? ( not that you should be spraying lead with shotgun of any variety into your livingroom in the dark, but which will run dry faster, and which takes longer to reload if you do?
also, i would not ever have a gun ( pump OR semi) that is not properly broken in and tested with a variety of ammo as my home defense gun...ever. so i don't see this as an issue.

all things even, either would do. a pump gun leaning in the corner with a loaded tube, or a loaded saiga in the corner with the bolt locked back over a loaded mag...seems about equal for first shot response.

just my opinion.

[rube79]

Good post Doc

It took me a bit before i was able to perform quick mag changes. The next one i get w/ be short barreled and i want that mag well mod!!!!! Most people dont train or actually know there weapon very well. I just wanted to throw a few extra thoughts out there.

[nimdabew]

You can have all the good stuff from a S-12 and all its evil features you like and they all seem to come standard with an AR-15. 30 > 20, don't like AK reloads? GET AN AR!!!!

That being said, R870 for a shotgun, AR for everything else.

[Paladin1]

in response to rube79
With out the correct and highly expensive modifications of the Saiga 12, its not worth it. not needed to protect a house

1. You will have to have the BC locked back inorder to load a magazine.load it 1 round less, then its not prob
2. The magazines are Free floating = dont grab = ftfnot sure what ur meaning...never thought a mag was a vertical grip
3. Unless you convert it to a pistol grip it kicks like a mule.nothing is changed in the gas system in the conversion
4. With the modification the magazine changes are 2-3x faster easy.nothing is changed w/ the mags or the mags release in the conversion
5. Must be broke in, because it does not like light loads at first.depends on the shotgun, and how well they did the ports...mine ate everything in site, like a fat kid with a bag of skittles

I have owned a Saiga 12

152dbs i dont think you have used/owned one. You will be amazed when i clarify what i was trying to say. ( im not the best w/ words )

This is for a non Modified Saiga 12
1. You must have the Bolt carrier locked back/all the way back in order to load a magazine. You can not load it w/ 1 less rd in the magazine, you must have the BC back w/ no rd in the chamber.

2. If you grab the magazine while firing there is a good chance of a failure to feed. Shit happens and chances are that you could fuck up. Using the mag as a VG is easy to do, even on accident. I use my mags as a VG w/ my AK, thus they are not FF mags.

3. The pistol grip adds a new point of contact and does reduce felt recoil on the shoulder.

4. With the proper modification to the mag well, mag reloads are now like your ARs. The BC does not have to be back and the magazine can be full w/ 1 rd in the chamber. This also means that you can place your VG even closer because you dont have an AK mag change.

5. I have shot 3 different new Saiga 12s that did not like light loads. Once broke in, we were able to shoot light loads w/o FTFs.

The Molot Vepr-12 come stock w/ all of these mods, but again we may never have these in the US.

Thats a friend's mod'ed Saiga 12 and its damn near as close to a Vepr-12 as you can get in the US. I wish i had the money for the mods and to short barrel it

Just as a point of clarification, you can convert a Saiga 12 back to it's original configuration for less than $100.

It is possible, I've done it and others have also, to load on a closed bolt. The trick is to push upwards at the proper angle WHILE setting the front lug. I've practiced it, but frankly in a firefight I would not do it. The standard rock and lock gets a mag changed quickly. Or spend $125 and get a magwell.

I don't know what a AK style 'free float' mag is My S12 mags lock in just my AK mags do. I imagine the extra weight and length of the 12ga mag would preload the mag enough that any added pressure could cause problems. I have used the mag before as a VG and haven't had any problems, but I don't do it regularly.

Not sure about the pistol grip reducing felt recoil, you still have your hand on the standard stock. So your not adding another point of contact (unless you have a third hand ) Perhaps its just that you are in a more comfortable position with a better grip?

Breaking in a S12? so what? Many guns take a little breaking in. I usually take my guns apart and clean, lube, polish, etc. anyway. Or just shoot some full loads through it, done. If you have a "Vodka Special" then an adjustable gas valve might clear it up for you ($35)

Now you can spend a lot more money modding one (I know I have ) but then again you now own the worlds premier fighting shotgun. If a shotgun is not an important tool in your battery, buy a used, old school pump and be done with it.

If you think your ass may depend on it one day buy the best you can afford. I've seen many, many people with optics on their AR's that cost as much, if not more, than my heavily modded S12.

As to the OP, I use a handgun inside the house, the S12 for outside. Either would work for you in a typical HD situ.

But I don't count on "typical", so I would opt for the S12 and have the softer shooting, faster cycling, faster loading, more capacity of it working for me.

But hey, thats just me.

[152dbs]

in response to rube79
With out the correct and highly expensive modifications of the Saiga 12, its not worth it. not needed to protect a house

1. You will have to have the BC locked back inorder to load a magazine.load it 1 round less, then its not prob
2. The magazines are Free floating = dont grab = ftfnot sure what ur meaning...never thought a mag was a vertical grip
3. Unless you convert it to a pistol grip it kicks like a mule.nothing is changed in the gas system in the conversion
4. With the modification the magazine changes are 2-3x faster easy.nothing is changed w/ the mags or the mags release in the conversion
5. Must be broke in, because it does not like light loads at first.depends on the shotgun, and how well they did the ports...mine ate everything in site, like a fat kid with a bag of skittles

I have owned a Saiga 12

152dbs i dont think you have used/owned one. You will be amazed when i clarify what i was trying to say. ( im not the best w/ words )

This is for a non Modified Saiga 12
1. You must have the Bolt carrier locked back/all the way back in order to load a magazine. You can not load it w/ 1 less rd in the magazine, you must have the BC back w/ no rd in the chamber.

2. If you grab the magazine while firing there is a good chance of a failure to feed. Shit happens and chances are that you could fuck up. Using the mag as a VG is easy to do, even on accident. I use my mags as a VG w/ my AK, thus they are not FF mags.

3. The pistol grip adds a new point of contact and does reduce felt recoil on the shoulder.

4. With the proper modification to the mag well, mag reloads are now like your ARs. The BC does not have to be back and the magazine can be full w/ 1 rd in the chamber. This also means that you can place your VG even closer because you dont have an AK mag change.

5. I have shot 3 different new Saiga 12s that did not like light loads. Once broke in, we were able to shoot light loads w/o FTFs.

The Molot Vepr-12 come stock w/ all of these mods, but again we may never have these in the US.

Thats a friend's mod'ed Saiga 12 and its damn near as close to a Vepr-12 as you can get in the US. I wish i had the money for the mods and to short barrel it

i currently own a saiga12.


ive converted more saigas than uve seen...i was there when Raa sent short ones..and now some of the saigas ive seen lately have 3 ports and some with 2 ports. look me up on saiga-12 site, ull see my current one. it was in a batch that the safeties werent cut correctly.


what the hell is a freefloating mag? and u can insert a mag w/ the bolt forward. done it plenty of times to know.

adding the pistol grip changes the balance...u dont need to convert a saiga to do that. for instance, tapco makes a PG/collapsible stock combo that is currently sold by mississppi arms.

what fcg did urs have? if u got the extra cash, use redstar. its completely adjustible.


thers mine.
yes, the bolt is back, always have all my bolts back when not in use.

i still want to know where u got ur freefloating mags...ur just explain them better. i was always taught that a mag isnt a vfg.

[nimdabew]

i currently own a saiga12.


ive converted more than uve prob seen pics of...i was there when Raa sent short ones..and now some of the saigas ive seen lately have 3 ports and some with 2 ports. look me up on saiga-12 site, ull see my current one. it was in a batch that the safeties werent cut correctly.


what the hell is a freefloating mag? and u can insert a mag w/ the bolt forward. done it plenty of times to know.

adding the pistol grip changes the balance...u dont need to convert a saiga to do that. for instance, tapco makes a PG/collapsible stock combo that is currently sold by mississppi arms.

what fcg did urs have? if u got the extra cash, use redstar. its completely adjustible.


thers mine.
yes, the bolt is back, always have all my bolts back when not in use.

i still want to know where u got ur freefloating mags...ur just explain them better. i was always taught that a mag isnt a vfg.

I don't think he is using the correct terminology. I have never heard of a free-float magazine. That would imply the magazine only touches the reciever at one place and no other and the magazine is completly independent.

[Domino]

Whilst I agree, I don't see how the Saiga is more clumsy

The Saiga is kinda difficult to reload, the safety position sucks, and the charging handle position sucks. Its pretty much the same grievances I have with the AK but, other than that they are awesome shotguns. As much as I like them though, I kinda wonder if the 11-87 or other type of semi-auto is a more practical route. There is just too much of an investment considering the costs of magazines and conversion parts to make the Saiga a practical choice IMHO. I just don't see a huge advantage in the magazine fed shotgun considering how large and heavy they are with a very small increase in magazine capacity of typical HD type pump actions.

[152dbs]

nim,

i agree, i cant recall anything being free floating on a saiga/ak...

just wish he'd explained it better instead of using incorrect wording and then trying to insult me....


domino,

its not hard to relocate the charging handle to the other side...just involves a little cutting and welding.

[Paladin1]

Honestly, it's like any other weapon platform. At first it feels odd, then after thousands of rounds and endless hours of training it feels perfectly normal.

Then you go and buy another gun....

[rube79]

nim,

i agree, i cant recall anything being free floating on a saiga/ak...

just wish he'd explained it better instead of using incorrect wording and then trying to insult me....


domino,

its not hard to relocate the charging handle to the other side...just involves a little cutting and welding.

I didnt try to insult any one.

If you grab the magazine, your fingers will bind/grab the rounds in the magazine. If you place a little bit of pressure on the bottom on the magazine the it will cause a FTF often. I never said AK magazines do this.

The point of the magazine well modification is for quicker reloads and easier reloads, thus better than w/o.

Adding a pistol grip in any configuration helps in many different ways.

I have never been able to easily load a mag into a saiga 12 w/o the bc locked back. The mag well mod fixed that. No comparison b/t the two.

All the AKs i own, using the magazine as a VG is not an issue.

OP said customize, so i recommended.


O yeah, 152dbs you just made an interesting comment. I didnt think that it wasnt gassed as much as other Saiga12s. Thus, the reason mine took a lot of breaking in.

PS. sorry again people its not a free floating mag, but for lack of better words i couldnt figure out what to call it.

[Jeriah]

PS. sorry again people its not a free floating mag, but for lack of better words i couldnt figure out what to call it.

I understood what you meant. On an AK, the mag is stable, locked in place, and won't cause a problem if bumped, gripped, etc. On a Saiga-12, not so much, right?

[rube79]

PS. sorry again people its not a free floating mag, but for lack of better words i couldnt figure out what to call it.

I understood what you meant. On an AK, the mag is stable, locked in place, and won't cause a problem if bumped, gripped, etc. On a Saiga-12, not so much, right?

On the money

hehe pretty bad for a College graduate and business owner that can't get his point across. And again i apologize if i came off rude or disrespectful.

IMHO, it takes a bit more training/practice for a saiga12 than a r870, forgot to add that.

[Paladin1]

PS. sorry again people its not a free floating mag, but for lack of better words i couldnt figure out what to call it.

I understood what you meant. On an AK, the mag is stable, locked in place, and won't cause a problem if bumped, gripped, etc. On a Saiga-12, not so much, right?

On the money

hehe pretty bad for a College graduate and business owner that can't get his point across. And again i apologize if i came off rude or disrespectful.

IMHO, it takes a bit more training/practice for a saiga12 than a r870, forgot to add that.

With respect, the S12 mags are EXACTLY like std AK mags.

The only difference I already noted. They are much longer and heavier and so COULD FTF if used as a VG. My only experience is that it has not happened to me nor has been an issue that I have seen noted.

I would agree that if you are used to pump shotguns then it will take more time and training to master the S12. If you are used to AK's it will not, as their controls are exactly the same.

I will add that we are really comparing apples to oranges. There really is no comparison. With skill being equal, the 870 is simply no match for a S12 in any category.

[rube79]

I'm going to buy another Saiga12 soon and highly mod it for fun.

But my experience w/ my last was horrible. Multiple FTFs w/ light loads and using the mag as a VG. I also did not realize that other s12's had less issues w/ less ports. Me and another friend might have owned duds but my other friend's is a STUD.

Im ruff w/ my AKs and have very few FTF due to excessive force while prone on the magazine. Hell, i might have had a bad batch of S12 mags as well, thats my luck.

Paladin1 is right, pie or cake

I do still have a R870 and m500. I sold my s12 for a krink project.

gl OP

[Paladin1]

I've heard of everything from 2 ports to 4 ports. Mine has three and it eats cheap walmart shells like candy. It's been flawless since I built it.

Davepal's had issues with light shells until he put the adjustable gas plug in and now it runs fine.

Keep in mind these were designed as fighting shotguns, not clay busters. They are built around shooting military buckshot and slugs.

If you buy another, pull the gas valve and make sure it has at least 3 ports.

[That German Guy]

It all depends. On the face of it, a properly maintained and slightly modified saiga has all the good points of the 870, with added semi-auto, but then again any survivors will try to get damages, and they will try their best to paint you as a run-to-the-hills evil black assault murder shot grenade gun launcher w/ barrel shroud militia kind of guy.

[doc savage]

but then again any survivors will try to get damages,.

survivors?
j/k
i'd rather be the one in court than the one in pieces. they will try to make you the monster in any case, no matter what type of gun you use.

[FelixArchon]

S12. Hands down.

Reliability Issues
Going with an 870 instead of an S12 because of "reliability issues" is like going with a revolver instead of an automatic pistol. Yes, there is a difference. But unless you're carrying your gun through swamps, sand, or something else that fouls the action, the difference in reliability is so small as to make no matter under nearly all circumstances. Aside from one issue with storing a loaded S12, it will cycle about as reliably as any automatic pistol, rifle, or shotgun.

Public Perception
As for the "black weapon" public perception, would you really choose the second-best option because of the spin a lawyer might put on it after the fact? Really? If someone is coming at you in such a way that you need to defend your life, legal proceedings that might or might not happen down the road seem a pretty poor reason to avoid maximizing your chances of survival.

Changing Loads
The idea of being able to change loads with removing the magazine seems minor as well. If we're talking about a home defense weapon, do you think you're going to be juggling loads while someone is kicking your door down?

Just my .02, and I do acknowledge the 870 as a fine shotgun, but this debate is the same as milsurp vs. AR. People who are choosing the 870 seem to be coming up with questionable reasons to side with a first-rate shotgun that is a second-rate weapon, just because they have it and/or like it. The ONLY time an 870 would come out ahead is for people who can honestly assert something like "I've used an 870 for years, and can wield one like an extension of my own body."

The shooter matters more than a weapon. But assuming equal experience (or inexperience) with the platforms, anyone willingly going with an 870 over an S12 as a defensive weapon is making the wrong choice.

[imrcly]

have both
Wife likes the one she can point and click doesn't catch on clothing and takes up least amount of room and will not jam if she holds it wrong

the 870 will fire and load the next round and it has no magazine to catch on things or break off if you drop it

If you are worried about needing more than what a pump can hold then you probably should also have a pistol nearby. just as easy to grab as another mag and it is already loaded

[Spindrift]

I see it's a flat out tie in the vote, so I HAD to sign up to vote. I have BOTH, tricked them out myself. The reason I bought the 870 was that at the time, its dependability as a work horse was second to NONE, and outweighed the sheer overwhelming power of a semi auto. The Saiga has made that obsolete. If my 870 wasn't pure porn, I'd sell it. The Saiga is my go to gun with a Beretta 92fs Inox on my hip, watch out I'm coming through!

[HKTackDriver]

I own both, I like both and I have both stashed in different areas of my house. The Saiga 12 is in the bedroom, what does that tell you? The 870 is in the basement in a location I'd be unlikely to go to, but is there nonetheless.

I simply believe the saiga 12 will run like a raped ape until I'm either incapacitated or dead. For NY, it's quite possibly the most lethal NY compliant shotgun made. I wish I could get another.

[We'reWolf]

home defense i would go with a pump action because the sound from the pump. In a defensive situation i want the other person to know that its loaded and ready to go and if you don't stop what your doing we are going to have a problem...
but this is coming from a guy who has a Winchester 1300