SHTF- is there a role for SA pistols AND revolvers?

[Sig_Ocelot]

Trebor, I will try to respond to your points. Thank you for teaching CCW, we need more folks like you out there.

When comparing .38spl to 9mm, I am comparing feet pounds of energy. Admittedly, I load all of my 9mm to +P levels, a 115grn bullet traveling 1,290fps according to my chrony. I use FMJ for 9mm reloads. The feet pounds of energy of my loads, and other +P ammo is 429 ft/lbs. A .38 special normally has a little over 200 ft/lbs of energy
(110 gr JHP 980 ft/s 235 ft·lbf ). I know this doesn't translate into twice the lethality, but it sure gives an edge to 9mm IMO.

For .40s&w I use 155grn Remington hollowpoints. I've never had a FTF or FTE in any Sig, Glock, or Walther. I will admit I don't shoot my Walther more than a few hundred rounds a year. My Sigs and Glocks typically see anywhere from 2-5k rounds of .40 s&w fired out of them in any given year. I've been shooting since around late 2003.

I still maintain that a quality 1911a1 or Sig can be more accurate than 99% of revolvers on the market. I have seen this with my own eyes, and until someone outshoots me with a revolver, I will continue to believe this. I also KNOW that no revolver could take the abuse that my Sigs could and keep on ticking.

Revolvers have some flaws that make them inherently inaccurate also. Cylinders not being perfectly aligned for each round. Cylinder gap can cause spreads of velocity, though I don't often observe this being a problem with my chrony on most revolvers I shoot. The frame on some revolvers is often structurally weak (compared to an auto-frame) an causes flexing and harmonic vibrations. This is to be expected when making room for a cylinder.

I think most people shoot better with revolvers simply because the triggers are often of a better quality than those of most semi-autos. A fine tuned S&W has a better trigger pull than even my most well worn Sig.

I give you ease of use... but 30 minutes at a range and an instruction manual should negate that. I don't think I could reload a revolver for the life of me in a fire fight. If you look at the 1986 Miami FBI shoot out, most of the FBI agents couldn't reload their revolvers either. The agents with semi-autos got off far more rounds. Now that's what I call ease of use.

I can't really compare Rugers (which I think are total crap) to revolvers. I'm not into mouse guns. I pack a Sig p226r or a Glock 31 depending on how I feel.

[Yaivenov]

Hmm, I'd have to say in a PAW type situation, I'd take a semi-auto, and preferably an older style semi. The reason is maintenance. I'm fully confident I could repair a 1911 with nothing more than a cleaning kit, small hammer and a couple of punches and jeweller's files. A new model (read plastic) semi or a revolver? Not so much.

[bonanacrom]

Is somebody else's state different than mine ? There is no law about how you load your gun, if you want one in the barrel than do it I do. Hell there's no law about keeping your gun cocked and locked !

[Trebor]

Sig Ocelot,

Well said. You made your points well. I still disagree on several levels, but, well said.

Btw, you only started shooting in 2003? You've packed quite a bit of experience and evidently knowledge into five years. Well done.

[Trent]

Plus, you can get a high quality revolver for a fraction of the cost of a Glock, Kimber, Sig, etc. Vintage S&W 10s, Detective Specials, Colt Agents, and Webleys can be obtained for as little as $200.

[Fire]

On the subject of the PAW, the revolver has one advantage, that being that the revolver will run with black powder cartridges, something to consider in a real PAW- it may be that it gets down to home made black powder and hand cast lead.... at that point a revolver becomes far superior- likewise, whatever a person is comfortable using will be superior in their hands if its needed, and if that is a revolver is what one likes, and has practiced with, I believe it will kill just as well.....

[SamuraiBobX26]

Revolvers still have a palce in the world or firearms.

Revolvers, like Trebor already stated are accurate. There is no moving slide to change the point of aim, no barrel shifting, nothing to get in the way of the gun functioning. I definetly shoot more consistently with my revolvers then my semi-automatics. But in the end, accuracy is in the hands of the shooter.

Like what has been stated already, they don't fire as fast, re-loads take longer, but other than that they are just plain relaible. I have never had one fail to funtion, but I still prepare for that eventuality. Hell, I shoot a S&W 625 for IDPA and IPSC and it never misses a beat. Granted, I do have faster times using my semi-autos, but I actually have better shot placement with my revolver. There are flaws in every gun, and a revolver is no exception, but these flaws have been stated already and can be overcome with time and practice.

Sig_Ocelot, I have a hard time believing that you have never had a jam out of your firearms. I have seen several well maintained firearms malfunction (including my own), including Glocks, Sigs, and even the fancy STI Raceguns. Every weapon, will eventually have a malfunction at one point, and we must be prepared to deal with that when it happens. I understand that you have had two revolvers malfuntion on you, but that should not discourage you from using them. Hell, I used to hate Glocks with a passion, especially after all of the trouble a friend of mine had with his, but that was due to poor maintenance practices. After spending more time with another friends' Glocks I have come to appreciate them and I am seriously looking in to getting one to add to my collection and to replace my CCW Weapon.

In the end, what type of pistol that you carry is all a matter of personal choice. Me, I like both weapons. I like the firepower of the revolver, but I also like the ammo capacity of the semi-auto. I shoot both well and either carry one or the other, most of the time a 1911. Its all boils down to choice and preference, and what you feel comfortable using.

[bark-eater]

On the subject of the PAW, the revolver has one advantage, that being that the revolver will run with black powder cartridges, something to consider in a real PAW- it may be that it gets down to home made black powder and hand cast lead.... at that point a revolver becomes far superior- likewise, whatever a person is comfortable using will be superior in their hands if its needed, and if that is a revolver is what one likes, and has practiced with, I believe it will kill just as well.....

Thats an interesting point. I don't know much about reloading but it seems to me that revolvers might give a greater margin of error for an inexperienced hand loader working out of necessity. Every time a KB happens with a semi-auto pistol its hand loads that are blamed. Revolvers blowing up stories don't show up on the internet so much, or maybe just don't get the attention......

[crypto]

At Z-con 2006 I saw a guys Glock 21 lock up not-quite-in-battery so bad he had to take it to a gunsmith. No amount of pulling on the slide would clear it.

Failures happen.

Personally, I carry a Glock every day, but the most accurate gun I own is still my k-frame .38, a Model 67. It's a work of metal art, and utterly reliable.

I do believe that a revolver is inherently more reliable than an auto, specially if it's going to be sat dry for years, or neglected. There are no high-speed reciprocating parts to hang up, and fouling doesnt get into the lockwork of a wheelgun like it gets into the action of an automatic.

Just my $0.02.

And not to shit in your wheates, Sig_Ocelot, but the first few production runs of the GSR 1911's have a poopy reputation for reliability.

[ProstheticWeasel]

When you run out of ammo you can put the revolver in a pillow case and swing it like a club.

I have been tempted to pick up a 357 revolver only because it is the only thing that will take 2 kinds of ammo and if you are in a world without retail stores flexibility is nice. But I keep figuring I am more likely to be able to scrounge or trade 9mm since there is so much of it so I never do. Plus I don't like how revolvers feel. But they are nice in that they can be left loaded and not fatigue any parts.

[mr.trooper]

more reliability,

That's pretty questionable. I'm not sure how a DA semi-auto is more reliable then a revolver, either SA or DA.


Revolvers are pretty idiot proof, just point and shoot. No safeties, slide releases. Of course, spend a couple minutes with a semi and they're easy to learn, but for someone who's never shot a gun before, and they're in a situation where they need one, a revolver would be a decent choice.

That said, the capacity, ease of loading, and ease of carrying ammunition are pretty major bonus' to having a semi. Reliability isn't much of an issue with most semi's these days.


Weigh out the pro's and cons for yourself, and make your decision based on that, and what's comfortable. IMO, a semi auto would be the way to go, but a revolver does have its place.

Revolvers are also harder to shoot, at least in my experience. I own a revolver (6" S&W .357) but Im shooting 5 or 6" groups with it, when at the same distance i would be chewing a one hole group with ANY auto loader (1911, Glock, or Sig). The same holds true for the .38 special i used to own.

People like to tout the revolver as the epitome of reliability. Iv got news for you: revolvers can and DO fail. Iv had it happen to me more than once. I had an old Smith & Wesson snubby that has seen far too many trails; it developed timing problems and became dangerous to shoot. I had ANOTHER revolver, that after about 200 rounds, started to have light primer strikes in DA mode; essentially devolving into a SA revolver. Anyone here ever tried to screw with the internals on a revolver? If so, then you know its a PITA compared to most auto loaders.

The opinion i have developed after years of shooting both types of handguns, is that a reliable autoloader (Glock, Sig, CZ) is a far more desirable weapon than a revolver.

[Yaivenov]

Anyone here ever tried to screw with the internals on a revolver? If so, then you know its a PITA compared to most auto loaders.

+1

[Artisan]

I have been lurking this forum for a few months but this thread, specifically several posts by Sig Ocelot, made me decide to register.

Some of what I have to say has already been mentioned by a few other people.

Ocelot, I will grant you you a few points in favor of your semis: They do typically hold more ammunition, and reloading is generally faster in a typical scenario.

Modern semis have come a very long way in terms of reliability and durability, particularly with reliable ammo that the gun likes. However, my wheelguns have no FTF or FTE to worry about, and the only failure to fire I ever have to deal with is due to a bad primer, not the gun. I will also grant you the point that if and when a revolver does royally fuck up it is something that usually must be repaired by a gunsmith. The semi is more likely to fail in the short term, but when the wheelgun fails in the long term it is generally out for the count until it can be reworked by a smith. I say that at this point in gun evolution, between a quality revolver (Smith, Ruger) and a quality semi (Sig, H&K, Beretta, Glock) reliability and dependability is pretty much a wash.

With that being said, here are the reasons why revolvers are not dead and why there is a place for them in the modern as well as SHTF/PAW/Zombie Uprising world.

1. First, several of your statements about revolvers are your opinions, not facts. Revolvers don't have good sights? Give me a break. There may be more aftermarket sights available for semis, but that's not to say that revolvers have lousy sights, particularly when you look not just at the aftermarket options available but also to the ones that come on the guns from the factory. Look at S&W's entire revolver inventory. It runs the gamut from fixed sights (durable and reliable in the PAW), adjustable sights, fiberoptic front sights and if I'm not mistaken tritium sights as well. Your dislike of revolvers' sights is personal preference, and I would say that you haven't handled enough of the many options out there to make your argument. Additionally, better accuracy in semis? I would give the slight edge to the revolver, particularly one with a six-inch barrel (with a nice, long sight picture), but this is an academic argument. You like the accuracy of semis because that is what you shoot best. But just because you are more accurate with a Sig (arguably one of the most accurate semis on the market today) doesn't mean that it is more accurate than all revolvers. There are plenty of people out there who would happily compete with you in a bullseye match using a revolver and would happily take your money on a bet. You may be the finest, most accurate handgunner on this forum, but there are wheelgun professionals in the world that are better than you are. To take the human factor out of the equation we could perform an experiment by testing several quality semis with several quality revolvers, lock them down in Ransom rests, and check their groups at 25 yards. Likely, they would all shoot ragged one-hole groups. Your argument of accuracy again comes down to personal experience and opinion. Moreover, when talking about reliability and never having had a FTE or FTF in any of your semis, you're talking about your personal experience. Your experience with your particular guns do not represent all experiences with all semis. If no semis ever had FTE or FTF, then nobody would be practicing clearing drills. Likewise, your two bad experiences with revolvers were isolated incidents with two particular guns, and they do not represent all modern revolvers. At some point you have to realize that you're talking about opinions, not facts.

Meanwhile, here are some facts.

2. I've already covered dependability, and I think the choice between semis and double-action revolvers largely comes down to personal preference. My preference as far as dependability is concerned is the wheelie. As I've already stated, I don't have to worry about a failure to eject or a failure to feed. I don't have to worry about fumbling with any safeties when I'm woken up in the middle of the night by an intruder in my apartment and I'm still half-groggy and my contacts aren't in and I have to point and shoot right now. Or if I'm accosted in the street, same thing: draw, point, fire. No racking a slide, no safeties to worry about. When every last fraction of a second counts, the DA revolver's manual of arms helps even the odds when someone has the drop on you. Additionally, when the hammer is down on a DA revolver, all the internal springs are at rest, with only enough tension on them to keep them in place. They do not weaken over time. If you keep all of your magazines fully loaded all the time then the springs will weaken over time, and that will lead to feeding failures. Not so on a wheelgun.

3. Speaking of dependability, that brings up the subject of ammunition. A semi must be tested with various ammunition to find out which particular brand and bullet the gun likes before the gun can be relied upon as a life-saving tool. And even then, it is limited to certain types of bullets: FMJ or a JHP that feeds reliably in the gun. With my revolver, I can pick up anything off the shelf, load the gun and shoot. This is probably a good time to point out that my personal handgun that I intend to have with me in a SHTF scenario is a S&W 686+ with the 4" barrel. Seven shots of .357 magnum goodness in a quality gun with an excellent trigger. I have a wide variety of power levels to choose from, from light .38 special up to raving-lunatic .357 magnum handloads. I can put any of them into the gun and they will fire. Concerning power levels (muzzle energy as you pointed out when comparing .38 special to 9mm) I have a wider range of power to use in my gun than you have in any of your semis. And at the upper end, I have more power available than anything you can load in your 9mm, your .357Sig, your .40S&W, or your .45ACP. The .357 magnum's upper end reaches into the 700 ft-lb range or higher, something that you won't get with any of your Big 4 semi calibers. You have to move up to 10mm to eclipse my .357 wheelie's power levels. And I must admit that a Glock 20 with 15+1 rounds of 10mm is an awesome amount of firepower. But I can come back with .41 mag, .44 mag, and on up to the absurdly powerful .500S&W. In addition to the energy level envelope of my .357, I also have a wider selection of bullet types: FMJ, hollow-points, wadcutters, semi wadcutters, semi wadcutter hollow points, truncated cone, and any other type of bullet type I may have left out. The point is that in a PAW I will be able to find something to put in my gun, and .38 special and .357 mag are stocked everywhere. I will not be lacking for ammo. Oh, and I can also shoot all of them out of my Marlin 1894CB in .357 magnum, which happens to be my SHTF rifle. I have ammo commonality for both my long gun and my side arm.

4. Regarding the reloading times of semis and autos: A magazine is fast to change out, but so is a revolver with a speedloader or moonclips. Just as fast, in fact. Moreover, what happens if you run out of ammo in both of your magazines and have to reload the magazines themselves in the face of a threat? What, are you going to walk around with ten mags? Let's be reasonable here. Reloading those mags once they're empty takes time, and if you're faced with an adversary it will be the longest time of your life. Meanwhile, I can throw seven shells in my revolver faster than you can load your magazine. If I find myself facing a threat, out of ammo, and come across a box of ammo in a department store, I can reload my revolver faster than you can reload your semi if you were faced in that exact hypothetical situation. Far-fetched scenario? Sure. But so is the idea of SHTF/PAW, and in that situation this scenario just might present itself.

5. Finally, lets look at the guns themselves. Again, look at S&W's offerings of DA wheelies. You have everything from basic fixed-sight models for durability in a harsh environment, stainless models for corrosion resistance and durability in said environment, up to and including high-end models made of lightweight alloys for ease of carrying and concealment, night sights available on a wide range of models, and even some specialty models with accessory rails.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=51525&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

There's a scandium-frame (lightweight) revolver with a tuned action, an integral rail under the barrel, an included removable rail for the top, chamfered charge holes for ease of loading, machined for moon clips, fiber optic front sight, adjustable rear sight, etc. Oh, and it's an eight shot .357 magnum. You don't think a gun like that helps to bridge the gap between the "old-fashioned" wheelgun and the "21st century semi?"

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=43926&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

How about that one? That's a combat revolver if there ever was one. Concealable size, seven shots of a powerful caliber, tuned action, chamfered charge holes, machined for moonclips, tritium sights, and a ported barrel for less muzzle flip allowing for faster follow up shots. There's not a place for this gun in the PAW?


As I've already stated, the choice between semis and wheelies comes down to personal preference. There are pros and cons to each. I like revolvers, you like bottom-feeders, and that's cool. But the OP specifically asked if there was a role for SA pistols AND revolvers in a SHTF scenario, and you have said:

"Revolvers are dead. They are fun range toys, that's about it."

"So to answer your question, no, there is no role for revolvers."

And that's bullshit.

I know my tone in this message is rather angry, and I apologize for that. I tend to get a little riled up when people try to pass off their personal experiences and opinions as incontrovertible fact.

The DA wheelgun absolutely does have a place in SHTF/PAW. As long as there is a need for a gun that people absolutely must depend on to go BANG every single time then there will be a place for the double-action revolver.

[Big A]

Artisan,

For a guy with one post on this Forum under his belt, you most
definately have come across as someone who knows how to make
a point, are knowledgeable of your subject, and put it out in a
well-written and thought-out post.

Underscoring the point I was trying to make is nice, too.

Bra-vo.

[chitown2k]

Here is an opinion from a newb (although I have been shooting casually for 20 years on and off)

I rent range guns, it's my only option living in Chicago - I can't legally own a handgun. Or I should say I can legally own one, but I can't register it in the city...so to my point.

I rent range guns about twice a month. I shoot a lot of different pistols and revolvers, depending on my mood and what I am trying to accomplish that day. I have had Glocks 19, 17 & 22's, fail to eject. I have had a Kimber and Springfield 45's, fail to eject and stove pipe (yesterday as a matter of fact with the Springfield - FTE and SP). I have had a cylinder fall out of a S&W Model 66 revolver, and I have had a S&W Model 617 (22lr) fail to strike the round - the firing pin was not lining up to the round.

I think the PAW will most likely present those conditions that present themselves at my local range. Dirty guns that need maintenance, shooting what ever ammo you can get your hands on (range reload quality, or low end mass produced stuff if you are fortunate - think UMC). You won't be shooting quality ammo all of the time, with your well maintained fire arm. Every thing that has moving parts will fail at some point and will need to be maintenanced. There are just too many factors when you talk about reliability.

My 2cents

[Tyler Durden]

I think autos are much better choices for fighting. However, in a true PAW situation, I want this gun:

....

One overlooked point in all this discussion is that a revolver only spits out one piece of evidence per pull of the trigger, and it goes into the target (at least it should). An auto spits one piece of evidence at the target and where does the other one go?

I think this is the biggest reason why so many people still CCW revolvers. I'm not sure if it's as big of a concern in a PAW situation, though.

[roscoe]

In a ZPAW, the .357 revolver is gotta be one of the best choices, especially if the cylinders are reamed to accept 9mm and moonclips. The issue of reloading and blackpowder has already been mentioned. You can use .38, .357, 9mm, .380, plus some oddball .38 caliber rounds. Sure, for a Lethal-Weapon type shootout, a hi-cap autoloader is the way to go, but this is a ZPAW forum, and even in most normal emergencies, 6 shots is plenty.

I should also add that in .357 you can get a range of ammo that can do things no autoloader other than 10mm can do. I am specifically thinking of heavy hunting ammo as well as the heavy hardcast loads that penetrate engine blocks, bear skulls, etc.

Also, the .357 is easy for non-firearm users to learn.

If I were allowed only one firearm to survive the ZPAW, it would be my .45LC Blackhawk. It can do it all, including accurate shots with extremely powerful loads at 100 yards. Plus, those big cases are easy to reload, and don't go zinging all over the place.

[Paladin1]

To the OP question is their a role for both? The answer is yes if you want to use a revolver because your better with them than a semi-auto.

But frankly, if you're a better shot with a wheelgun it's because you're haven't found a semi-auto you like as well. They both are accurate, reliable weapons.

But for a PAW situ, there is no freaking way I'm packing a wheelgun around. If I'm going to hunt I'll use a rifle or a shotgun, it's a hell of a lot better for hunting than a handgun. We're talking food here people not sport.

If we're talking self defense, there's just no comparison, sorry nostalgic dudes.
Giant, magnum handgun calibers are for shits and giggles. They cost a shit-ton to stock pile, slow follow up shots, you get 5-6 shots. C'mon.

I just came back from a 3 gun match not an hour ago and an experienced shooter who has done a lot of cowboy action was using his revolver just because he wanted too.

He's very good with it, fast speed loads, accurate, nice rig altogether. I would love to have it myself. But it's not what I'm reaching for when SHTF. The smallest round count stage was like 16 shots. He had to stop and reload 4 times. Everybody else just ran the whole course with no, or 1 reload.

A wheelgun gives no advantages, but has the disadvantage of limited capacity and slow reloads.

[GoSlash27]

Revolvers are dead. They are fun range toys, that's about it.

Sacrelige!

There is a place for revolvers for anybody who prefers them, and I know a few.

[Artisan]

But frankly, if you're a better shot with a wheelgun it's because you're haven't found a semi-auto you like as well. They both are accurate, reliable weapons.

The same is true if you reverse your position. If you're a better shot with a semi it may just be that you haven't found a wheelie that you like as well.

A wheelgun gives no advantages, but has the disadvantage of limited capacity and slow reloads.

No advantages? You must not have read my previous post. The humble DA revolver offers many advantages. Sure, it has limited capacity, and slowER reloads in most situations that I haven't already outlined, but for many of us the advantages outweigh these two drawbacks.

Giant, magnum handgun calibers are for shits and giggles. They cost a shit-ton to stock pile, slow follow up shots, you get 5-6 shots. C'mon.

Oh, sure. They are for shits and giggles.

They're also for blowing ginormous holes in bad guys with awesome amounts of expansion and penetration. If you absolutely must have the most powerful handgun cartridge available, then the revolver is your only choice. Slow follow-up shots? Maybe slowER, again, but with practice the revolver offer's quick follow-ups. I practice double-taps with my S&W 637 loaded with the "FBI load", Remington's 158 grain lead semi-wadwcutter hollowpoint (LSWCHP) +P. At seven yards both shots land inside the seven ring of a standard bullseye and the time between both shots is about half a second, probably a little sooner. Not bad for a lightweight aluminum snubby with heavy +P rounds capable of expanding to .6" and penetrating to 11-12 inches.

Oh, and capacity in compacts like the S&W J-frames or Ruger's SP101 are 5 shots (for .38 and .357) or six shots (for .32 H&R or the new .327 Federal Magnum). In the medium to large frames of Rugers and Smiths, the ammo capacity in the .38 or .357 is between six and eight. Wheelguns are no longer restrained to five or six shots before a reload. The extra seventh or eigtht round (or even sixth in the J-frame .32 calibers) offers a significant increase in firepower.

I am not doubting the capabilities of modern semis, but those of you who are arguing that the DA revolver has no place in modern combat are deluding yourselves. As I have stated previously, both semis and wheelguns have their pros and cons.

Neither of them are outdated. Both have a place in the hands of a populace willing to defend itself.

[Kalash_NICH_ov]

A Revolvers not my first choice, but if you know how to use one effectively, it will still put a hole in a something. Besides, take a real look at what you'd really be up against in the PAW. For some, and maybe most, a rev. should do just fine.

[Sig_Ocelot]

I have been lurking this forum for a few months but this thread, specifically several posts by Sig Ocelot, made me decide to register.


Okay, the plot thickens.

Ocelot, I will grant you you a few points in favor of your semis: They do typically hold more ammunition, and reloading is generally faster in a typical scenario.

Typically and generally? Find me a semi-auto that holds less than six and is slower to reload than a revolver. (Mouse guns don't count.)

[b]With that being said, here are the reasons why revolvers are not dead and why there is a place for them in the modern as well as SHTF/PAW/Zombie Uprising world.

1. First, several of your statements about revolvers are your opinions, not facts. Revolvers don't have good sights? Give me a break. There may be more aftermarket sights available for semis, but that's not to say that revolvers have lousy sights, particularly when you look not just at the aftermarket options available but also to the ones that come on the guns from the factory. Look at S&W's entire revolver inventory. It runs the gamut from fixed sights (durable and reliable in the PAW), adjustable sights, fiberoptic front sights and if I'm not mistaken tritium sights as well. Your dislike of revolvers' sights is personal preference, and I would say that you haven't handled enough of the many options out there to make your argument. Additionally, better accuracy in semis? I would give the slight edge to the revolver, particularly one with a six-inch barrel (with a nice, long sight picture), but this is an academic argument. You like the accuracy of semis because that is what you shoot best. But just because you are more accurate with a Sig (arguably one of the most accurate semis on the market today) doesn't mean that it is more accurate than all revolvers. There are plenty of people out there who would happily compete with you in a bullseye match using a revolver and would happily take your money on a bet. You may be the finest, most accurate handgunner on this forum, but there are wheelgun professionals in the world that are better than you are. To take the human factor out of the equation we could perform an experiment by testing several quality semis with several quality revolvers, lock them down in Ransom rests, and check their groups at 25 yards. Likely, they would all shoot ragged one-hole groups. Your argument of accuracy again comes down to personal experience and opinion. Moreover, when talking about reliability and never having had a FTE or FTF in any of your semis, you're talking about your personal experience. Your experience with your particular guns do not represent all experiences with all semis. If no semis ever had FTE or FTF, then nobody would be practicing clearing drills. Likewise, your two bad experiences with revolvers were isolated incidents with two particular guns, and they do not represent all modern revolvers. At some point you have to realize that you're talking about opinions, not facts.[/b]

G&A, to my knowledge, does test guns in a ransom rest. Except for Patrick Sweeney, who does not. Most revolvers reviewed generally get between 2-4" groups at 25 yards. I have two Sigs that I can shoot sub 1" groups at 25 yards with. The only revolver that comes to mind that is more accurate is a BFR. You obviously didn't read why revolvers aren't dead on accurate just because their barrel doesn't move. Oh well. As far as sights, I have NEVER seen a revolver with front and rear tritium. I've only seen a .38spl with a front tritium sight. I have a 357pd in .41 mag that has a red fiber optic front and black V-notch rear, I really do like that. Generally speaking, a semi-auto will have better sights than a revolver, especially in dimmer light. Secondly, I never did say all modern revolvers jam. I said that MY two MODERN REVOLVERS did jam. Learn to read more carefully.

Meanwhile, here are some facts.

2. I've already covered dependability, and I think the choice between semis and double-action revolvers largely comes down to personal preference. My preference as far as dependability is concerned is the wheelie. As I've already stated, I don't have to worry about a failure to eject or a failure to feed. I don't have to worry about fumbling with any safeties when I'm woken up in the middle of the night by an intruder in my apartment and I'm still half-groggy and my contacts aren't in and I have to point and shoot right now. Or if I'm accosted in the street, same thing: draw, point, fire. No racking a slide, no safeties to worry about. When every last fraction of a second counts, the DA revolver's manual of arms helps even the odds when someone has the drop on you. Additionally, when the hammer is down on a DA revolver, all the internal springs are at rest, with only enough tension on them to keep them in place. They do not weaken over time. If you keep all of your magazines fully loaded all the time then the springs will weaken over time, and that will lead to feeding failures. Not so on a wheelgun.

LMAO, your facts have more conjecture and opinions than mine do, and some of your facts are flat out false. Leaving a magazine loaded will not jack with the springs or weaken them in any way. That is total and complete bullshit. Sorry. Springs weaken from one of two ways A) extreme heat or B) constant loading and unloading. With a Sig or a Glock, I don't worry about fumbling with safeties either. I have never had a spring go bad in any of my semi autos.

3. Speaking of dependability, that brings up the subject of ammunition. A semi must be tested with various ammunition to find out which particular brand and bullet the gun likes before the gun can be relied upon as a life-saving tool. And even then, it is limited to certain types of bullets: FMJ or a JHP that feeds reliably in the gun. With my revolver, I can pick up anything off the shelf, load the gun and shoot. This is probably a good time to point out that my personal handgun that I intend to have with me in a SHTF scenario is a S&W 686+ with the 4" barrel. Seven shots of .357 magnum goodness in a quality gun with an excellent trigger. I have a wide variety of power levels to choose from, from light .38 special up to raving-lunatic .357 magnum handloads. I can put any of them into the gun and they will fire. Concerning power levels (muzzle energy as you pointed out when comparing .38 special to 9mm) I have a wider range of power to use in my gun than you have in any of your semis. And at the upper end, I have more power available than anything you can load in your 9mm, your .357Sig, your .40S&W, or your .45ACP. The .357 magnum's upper end reaches into the 700 ft-lb range or higher, something that you won't get with any of your Big 4 semi calibers. You have to move up to 10mm to eclipse my .357 wheelie's power levels. And I must admit that a Glock 20 with 15+1 rounds of 10mm is an awesome amount of firepower. But I can come back with .41 mag, .44 mag, and on up to the absurdly powerful .500S&W. In addition to the energy level envelope of my .357, I also have a wider selection of bullet types: FMJ, hollow-points, wadcutters, semi wadcutters, semi wadcutter hollow points, truncated cone, and any other type of bullet type I may have left out. The point is that in a PAW I will be able to find something to put in my gun, and .38 special and .357 mag are stocked everywhere. I will not be lacking for ammo. Oh, and I can also shoot all of them out of my Marlin 1894CB in .357 magnum, which happens to be my SHTF rifle. I have ammo commonality for both my long gun and my side arm.

I've never found a brand of ammunition that didn't go bang every time in any of my Sigs, Glocks, or Walthers. I can't defend other brands however. The ability to shoot .357 mag or .38 is an advantage, but I'm pretty sure that .40 and 9mm are just as well stocked as the two calibers you mentioned. You mentioned power levels, but I'm plenty comfortable with my .40 S&W 155grn HP packing 500 ft/lbs of energy. If you want .357mags, then more power to ya brother.

4. Regarding the reloading times of semis and autos: A magazine is fast to change out, but so is a revolver with a speedloader or moonclips. Just as fast, in fact. Moreover, what happens if you run out of ammo in both of your magazines and have to reload the magazines themselves in the face of a threat? What, are you going to walk around with ten mags? Let's be reasonable here. Reloading those mags once they're empty takes time, and if you're faced with an adversary it will be the longest time of your life. Meanwhile, I can throw seven shells in my revolver faster than you can load your magazine. If I find myself facing a threat, out of ammo, and come across a box of ammo in a department store, I can reload my revolver faster than you can reload your semi if you were faced in that exact hypothetical situation. Far-fetched scenario? Sure. But so is the idea of SHTF/PAW, and in that situation this scenario just might present itself.


That is complete and utter bullshit. You cannot reload a revolver faster with moonclips than I can load a mag. Unless your first is Jerry... Anyhoo, do me a favor, and google the 1986 Miami FBI shoot out. You can see how fast trained federal agents could reload their revolvers in the firefight... I can reload a magazine (12 rounds of .40 in my Sig) in around 10 seconds. I typically carry 3 magazines, doesn't take up much space, and it's much less bulky than 6 speed loaders. I revolvers were just as fast to reload, why don't police departments still carry them? I'm listening...


5. Finally, lets look at the guns themselves. Again, look at S&W's offerings of DA wheelies. You have everything from basic fixed-sight models for durability in a harsh environment, stainless models for corrosion resistance and durability in said environment, up to and including high-end models made of lightweight alloys for ease of carrying and concealment, night sights available on a wide range of models, and even some specialty models with accessory rails.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=51525&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

There's a scandium-frame (lightweight) revolver with a tuned action, an integral rail under the barrel, an included removable rail for the top, chamfered charge holes for ease of loading, machined for moon clips, fiber optic front sight, adjustable rear sight, etc. Oh, and it's an eight shot .357 magnum. You don't think a gun like that helps to bridge the gap between the "old-fashioned" wheelgun and the "21st century semi?"

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=43926&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

How about that one? That's a combat revolver if there ever was one. Concealable size, seven shots of a powerful caliber, tuned action, chamfered charge holes, machined for moonclips, tritium sights, and a ported barrel for less muzzle flip allowing for faster follow up shots. There's not a place for this gun in the PAW?



Nice guns sure, but neither holds a candle to my Sigs or Glocks. They're just better than other revolvers, that's all. (That sights, I definitely want them!)


As I've already stated, the choice between semis and wheelies comes down to personal preference. There are pros and cons to each. I like revolvers, you like bottom-feeders, and that's cool. But the OP specifically asked if there was a role for SA pistols AND revolvers in a SHTF scenario, and you have said:

"Revolvers are dead. They are fun range toys, that's about it."

"So to answer your question, no, there is no role for revolvers."

And that's bullshit.

When compared to a fine tuned semi-auto, that is no bull shit. There's a reason why cops who are constantly in SHTF situations don't carry wheel guns, because there is no place for them. If the SHTF, I want a nice semi-auto on my side. Somehow, I imagine your the kind of guy who wears 'real tree' to gunshows, uses rem-oil, and loads #9 birdshot in a side by side because it won't go through walls.

[Georgian]

Ah here we go with know-it-alls again...... I mean really, who gives a shit about what you can and can't do with "your semi-autos"? Forgive me if I didn't realize "you" are now the self-appointed expert on these forums pertaining to semi-auto handguns. I mean damn, with 5 or 6 new experts on here every week, who can?

[Sig_Ocelot]

I am not doubting the capabilities of modern semis, but those of you who are arguing that the DA revolver has no place in modern combat are deluding yourselves. As I have stated previously, both semis and wheelguns have their pros and cons.

Neither of them are outdated. Both have a place in the hands of a populace willing to defend itself.

Oh really? And how much modern combat have you seen outside of an XboX360? NM, I don't want to come off like I hate revolvers, because I don't. Here's my favorite six-gun in the whole wide world. And my favorite semi. It's a 357pd S&W in .41 mag and a Sig p226r in .40.