Home Invasion or RAID?

[Caenus]

In Austin a few months back there were guys driving around between Round Rock and Cedar Park (a 10 mile section that is fairly rural) pulling people over in black Crown Vics with red & blue lights. Then the guy, dressed in plain clothes, walks up to the driver, asks them to get out of the car. Basic traffic stop right? Well once the driver has stepped out of the car the other "officer" gets in their car and they both drive off. Leaving the motorist stranded. This happened a few times.

It got me thinking. Just because someone says they are a policeman, what rights would I have to protect my life and liberty? The news told the general public that if you ask for an officers ID, not their badge, but their ID, they have to show it to you. If you feel threatened, you're supposed to sit in your car with the window up and your hands visible and call 911 and ask for a 2nd car.


This doesn't work in all situations. Such as: (Please don't be the dick that nitpicks details, use your brain and also understand that I am not a professional writer so there may be some plot holes. If there is information not provided, include it in your answer.)

It's Tuesday morning, and you didn't feel well so you stay home from work. You decide to get some stuff done around the house. You live in a middle class neighborhood. Your 4x4 Tahoe "BOV" is parked in the garage and you're taking a leak and looking out your bathroom window.

As you finish "shaking it off" a van pulls up in front of the house and 5 or 6 guys pile out of it dressed in black BDU's and mismatched body armor and quickly move across your lawn. You see "POLICE" stenciled on their body armor. You notice that one person has an AR, one a Shotgun, one a door ram, and the others pistols. There are no marked police cars anywhere on the street. As they reach your front door you hear "POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT" Followed by the door getting knocked off it's hinges.

You are an average working Joe. You've never gotten a speeding ticket and you nor anyone you know is involved in any criminal activity to your knowledge. Why would the Police be raiding your house? There is no logical reason for it, unless it is a mistake. You only have a few seconds to make up your mind.

What do you do? Grab your AR and slip your interceptor vest on and prepare to defend yourself, or lay down with your hands behind your head?

On one hand, these guys don't seem to have the same setup as the guys do on "Dallas SWAT", but on the other hand you don't want to kill a Cop because of some bad intel they recieved. They could be doing a city wide raid and this is the "B Team". You certainly don't want to have to face a Judge and explain why you didn't believe that a group of guys in black clothing with "POLICE" stenciled on it were actually not cops. Expecially after they yelled "POLICE". You also don't want to be shot laying on the floor by a well organized gang (MS-13 type).

So I ask again, What would YOU do?

[Ranger0402]

Are you really going to take the chance that A.) These are really SWAT guys or B.) You're in the movie Heat.

I'm fairly certain that shooting it out with a SWAT team is going to earn you a first place Darwin Award.

[BHP]

There are worse things than death Ranger, you know that better than most.

I didn't see an option for flee, if they are a gang I wouldn't suspect them to have an effective perimeter but the cops will. This is one of the many reasons I am not in favor of no knock warrants, occasionally mistakes are made. If you shoot it out with cops that have the wrong address or bad intel you would be in the right (but probably still dead). If you fail to shoot it out with home invaders you may also die and even worse you will have taught them that their actions are successful and emboldened them to do it again.

[Caenus]

Probably, but you didn't say what you'd do? I've been in combat before (although never defensively against a well organized SWAT team.) So I could put up a fight. Especially if the guy with the AR goes down first. Interceptor body armor would give me a distinct advantage against the remaining shotgun and the handguns. I do have interceptor body armor, and a K-pot.

legal disclaimer: This is only hypothetical. If someone says they are a Policeman, I would give them benefit of the doubt and suggest you do the same.

I am just curious, if say, you put one or two down, they pull back and you find out they are cops. Would you have a legal leg to stand on in court when facing Murder 1?

[Jamie]

+1 to taking on 5-6 armed guys who are already in your house before you really know what's going on being a noisy way to commit suicide...

You should either lay down on the floor with your hand empty and in plain sight (on the assumption that the LEOs just got the wrong address or some such)...

or...

You should jump out of the bathroom window, and watch what happens from your neighbor's house while calling 911 to confirm the raid...

I would go with option #1 because I'd have my son in the house, and am not going to leave him...

nfa

[Ranger0402]

Serious? Are we now worried about mock-SWAT-MS/13 home invasions? You kind of have to play the odds. This isn't really a 50/50 chance that it's one or the other. Show me that (Gangsters Dressed as, and using SWAT tactics to rob average joe homeowner), is a viable threat, and I might change my mind. But I can guarantee if you shoot it out with real cops (which I say the chances are much better that these are REAL cops) you're either going to be dead or doing life in prison.

[Caenus]

Very reasonable nfa. Probably the most responsible choice, and what I'd do.

[Caenus]

Serious? Are we now worried about mock-SWAT-MS/13 home invasions? You kind of have to play the odds. This isn't really a 50/50 chance that it's one or the other. Show me that (Gangsters Dressed as, and using SWAT tactics to rob average joe homeowner), is a viable threat, and I might change my mind. But I can guarantee if you shoot it out with real cops (which I say the chances are much better that these are REAL cops) you're either going to be dead or doing life in prison.

Then back out of the thread if you don't have anything productive to add. I've already explained that fake cops were pulling people over and carjacking them. That actually happened. How much of a stretch is it for a gang to go down to the surplus store, grab some BDU's and some paint ball body armor, stencil "POLICE" on it and start home invasions?

That's your answer then. You play the odds that the Police made a mistake and raided a law abiding citizens house in a middle class residential neighborhood with a poorly armed and outfitted SWAT team with no backup. Good answer.

You are right. Policemen hopefully would win in a shootout and the perp would go away for a long time. By the way I used MS-13 as an example from a recent thread. It doesn't have to be a "gang". This is not a scenario I've attempting to prepare for. Give me SOME credit.

[AwPhuch]

This is why "NO KNOCK" warrants will get MANY people dead!

I would like to think I would fight...but 5 on 1 will just get you and yours dead really really quick.

You lost, whether it be the SWAT team or MS-13, its too late..they are already in your house

[Ranger0402]

I do have something constuctive to add. I think it's VERY constructive to advise people NOT to shoot it out with cops. I don't think you should run into the house, suit up and lay down fire under the assumption that you have correctly ascertained that these are fake cops, based off of what you've seen in a split second. My point is that if you are even slightly wrong, the consequences are so dire, as to not even risk it.

If you don't like what I have to add, then don't post situations where you could potentially be shooting it out with real cops, on a public forum.

[Politenessman]

Here are some examples of this type of criminal behaviour:

http://gothamist.com/2007/07/06/fakecop_bandits.php

http://gothamist.com/2007/05/18/fake_cops_shoot.php

http://www.timesledger.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18837097&BRD=2676&PAG=461&dept_id=551069&rfi=6

I don't know much about this news source.

As for cops hitting the wrong house:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188934,00.html

[thelight]

Normally I don't like the idea of saferooms built into closets and the like (I'm more of a concealed reinforced concrete "storage room" off of the basement kinda guy), but this is a situation where I think they would be the best course of action. If you have legitimate reason to suspect that they are armed robbers and not cops, run into the closet, lock the security door, and call the cops via cell or land line (I'd keep both in the closet, along with a panic button to my home security system). If they are cops, you will most likely get told so and you can walk out and surrender. If they are not cops, the real cops will be on there way, possibly with SWAT in tow. They can have a fire fight, and you'll be relatively safe. No hostage situation.

If this were a PAW scenario, you'd have to rethink everything.

[Aikibiker]

I have heard of the above scenario happening every once and a while. Every time something like that happens it makes the rounds on the High Road and The Firing Line and you see threads like this.

Personally I would engage the home invaders knocking down my door. I woul ddo this because I know I don't do the kind of illegal shit that would earn me th eattention of a real SWAT team, I know criminals have impersonated entry teams in the past, and I know it is standard tactics to have a marked unit in close proximity to the target house to avoid mistaken identities.

Given the above and that the scenario calls for me to have heavy body armor along with my rifle the odds are much more in my favor. It all comes down to a personal choice though.

[Caenus]

That's pretty much what I wanted to get a feel for. This would definately be a no win situation. Risk shooting it out with real cops. So a strategy of spending a $100 on fake body armor and a $5 can of white spray paint would be very effective if a group decided to carry out home invasions such as this.

As I previously mentioned, pretending to be a LEO is nothing new for criminals. I did not realize that somebody would think that the likelihood of this happening would be so remote that it is ridiculous to raise the possibility and illicit such a response.

I think it's VERY constructive to advise people NOT to shoot it out with cops

I agree, and did not advise it.

I said this:

legal disclaimer: This is only hypothetical. If someone says they are a Policeman, I would give them benefit of the doubt and suggest you do the same.

Try not to beat a dead horse okay?

My point is that if you are even slightly wrong, the consequences are so dire, as to not even risk it.

Point taken, lets move along...either course of action MAY result in dire results. BG's that organized will most likely not leave witnesses. So you're choice is "die laying down", that's cool.

If you don't like what I have to add, then don't post situations where you could potentially be shooting it out with real cops, on a public forum.

mmmkay are you trying to place a moral judgement on my hypothetical situation? Don't think it would actually happen? mkay....
http://www.nbc4.com/news/13473498/detail.html
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2007/aug/28/ ... sed-polic/
http://myfloridalegal.com/newsrel.nsf/n ... 790061BEE4
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21039916/

It is much more likely you'll be robbed by a home invasion by a cop-impersonator than a scenario you'd have to bug out and never come home. But we've considered that possibility...why not this one?

The reason I am asking this on a public forum is because I want to get a feel for what others consider reasonable defense of life and liberty. Before you go off the handle and try to label me as a cop-basher; My father is a Constable and was a Policeman for 27yrs. My uncle and cousin are both State Troopers. My best friend is local cop. All of them have answered this question directly. Of course their answers were "Since I know the SWAT guys, I'd know if those guys coming across the lawn were them." The cops all said they would defend themselves since they would then have taken the element of surprise away since the BG's will be operating under the assumption that the inhabitants will not resist. Defender has 3 to 1 advantage. They have Interceptor body armor (they all have LE equivalents) and they could take out the only weapon that could penetrate it in an environment that only they are familiar with...

I won't hold a grudge against you Ranger. If you are what your name implies then it would be against your training and personality to submit as it seems the only viable answer. It also means you're smarter than the average grunt so you can make a sound tactical decision. Facing a well organized breaching team with the element of surprise is a poor tactical situation that only someone who is confident that their course of action is correct and that believe they have the skills to survive should attempt to undertake. So I understand your hostility towards the scenario.

So what circumstances or pre-knowledge would persuade you into action? Perhaps a news report the night before that 5-6 guys in a black van with "POLICE" stenciled on toy vests invaded a home in a neighborhood earlier that day and killed the occupants before robbing them?

Again, not a far stretch from the ACTUAL events in my neck of the woods recently with the fake traffic stops and car jacking/robbery.

Thanks for the support guys.

[Caenus]

Normally I don't like the idea of saferooms built into closets and the like (I'm more of a concealed reinforced concrete "storage room" off of the basement kinda guy), but this is a situation where I think they would be the best course of action.

Very good idea. I did not think of that. That is a very reasonable course of action under all circumstances. Get in, call the good guys. Have them call you and tell you when to open the door. Everyone has a good laugh about how they kicked your door in....

[bae]

Well, I think they'd have to get past my private security force of ex-Israeli paratroopers and SEALS first, then through the small army of lawyers I keep in the entryway for exactly this purpose.

[Ranger0402]

In all of the instances you spoke of, the victims left with their lives. In two of the four instances, the people at the door weren't even dressed like cops. They simply identified themselves as cops. A guy at the door in a mask with a badge, does not a cop make.

But I'll play along with your scenario. You see what appear to be uniformed and outfitted SWAT officers in a stenciled vehicle. You don't see a marked car. That doesn't mean there isn't one just down the street. So let's analyze every possible outcome that starts with you pulling the trigger.

1: They're fake cops. You have now initiated a gunfight in a suburban neighborhood with rounds (on both sides) that have extreme penetration and range. How good are your chances of surviving a gunfight with 5 armed and armored assialants? As has been stated before, you could barracade yourself in a bedroom and they may just leave with some money and electronics. My point is that even if they are criminals, initiating fire isn't always the best case. Your goal in any criminal encounter should be to leave with your life. I don't like the idea of submitting either, but because this has happened in a few remote cases, I don't think this situation is likely.

2: They're real cops. You have now initiated a gunfight with LEO's based off of an error. Even if the error is not your fault, how is a court of law going to view this.? Further more, even if you are found "not guilty" you still get to live the rest of your life, knowing that you created a widow and/or orphan of a police officer. That is, if you make it out of the situation alive.

The conclusion I come to for either situation, is NOT to shoot. Baracade yourself in a room and call for uniformed officers. Just as most of us keep firearms accessible in the home, for any contingency, you need to be prepared for contingencies in which discharging your weapon is a bad option. Keep your dresser next to the door of your bedroom so can tip it to block yourself in. Have a phone in there to call the cops. Even if you're justified in firing, doesn't mean you should.

[Ben]

Well, I think they'd have to get past my private security force of ex-Israeli paratroopers and SEALS first, then through the small army of lawyers I keep in the entryway for exactly this purpose.

You could also release the hounds. Or the bees. Or the hounds with bees in their mouth and when they bark they shoot bees at you.

[Caenus]

Sounds good Ranger, and thank you for your opinion. It seems obvious that the most responsible course of action is to not engage to begin with. We should never shoot at someone entering our home. That is a debate left for a different time. Lets assume that you are willing to shoot someone with such obvious mal-intent. Which I think we all would agree is not desirable in any home defense situation due to the collateral damages possible you mentioned. Texas does have castle laws, but that does not mean the defender would not be liable for injury or damage done to neighbors. Thanks for the reminder. Luckily, in this fanciful scenario it is morning-ish and a lot of people should be at work and kids should be at school so stay at home Moms and young children would be primary concerns.

A agree that retreating to a position that allows you to evaluate the situation is prudent.

Once barricaded and even if you had a chance to make them pause, via a locked door, while they are bringing the door ram up front or clearing other rooms, it is plausible you'd have an opportunity to yell out "STOP! I AM ARMED AND I WILL DEFEND MYSELF. I NEED PROOF THAT YOU ARE POLICEMEN AND THEN I WILL SURRENDER IMMEDIATELY. I AM CONTACTING 911."

Now you have another similar situation. This is where I am going to get stupid...From what I've seen on TV (work with me here) SWAT teams will generally not force a gunfight. I have seen occasions where someone has barricaded themselves in a room and it ended with a gunfight AFTER the BG started shooting. Mostly I've seen SWAT hold their ground and re-assess the situation unless there is some pressing reason to proceede. My only reference here is my personal experiences in Iraq, in which case we would proceed, someone would probably put a few rounds through the door at that point... Plus we wouldn't know what the fuck the dude was saying anyway...

If after yelling out the above, they continue to attempt to breech your hold out spot WITHOUT attempting to come to a resolution that does not involve a firefight:

1. They do not want you calling 911 and they are trying to get in and out as quickly as possible.

2. They are LEO's and they are attempting to neutralize you (working under the assumption that you're the badguy). An entry team should not surrender momentum to a defender.

3. They don't hear you or believe you are attempting to stall them in order to get a weapon or destroy evidence.

4. You don't hear anything because the imposters decided cops would be there soon and someone is about to start shooting at them. Most criminals will not continue to attack a strong victim. They would get out and try again another day at another house.

Anybody KNOW what a SWAT team would do? Unfortunately when I asked my LE resources nobody knew what the SWAT team would do. They basically said the officer on the scene, in the situation, would have discretion.

Thanks for all the posts guys...I'm a little bored at work today and this is great entertainment.

By the way, legally, I'd assume a judge would side with the LEOs regardless of the plausibility of the whole thing being "a great big misunderstanding" in fear of setting a president and encouraging future resistance in LE raids.

[Ben]

I think Doc66 was SWAT.

[MICKPORNO]

i would wait until they are all inside the house and then i would push the button.....you know..."the button"....

the button that turns my house into a giant blue flame mushroom cloud....if i'm gonna die i'm taking those cocksuckers with me....

[Ranger0402]

Can we modify the poll? All of the options are either fight or submit. How about a flee or stall for time option?

[Ben]

Can polls be modified once people have voted?

[Caenus]

Can polls be modified once people have voted?

I tried to modify and add that option once the saferoom was suggested, but I cannot. So I assume a moderator could do it? Without that option it is definately skewing the results.