22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

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22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by Mechphisto » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:50 pm

I'm considering getting a Smith & Wesson M&P15-22 Sport 22LR for both target shooting (because I plan on shooting it a LOT and ammo's cheap), but I'd also like to have it for home defense.
I would never consider a 22LR pistol for that, but in my meager knowledge of guns, the same round from a rifle has a higher muzzle velocity and kinetic energy when it hits the target, yes?
So, presuming the home invader isn't wearing body armor, and embracing the idea of defense is getting the aggressor to stop as opposed to murdering the guy...
Is a 22LR (perhaps with specific ammo type in mind) reasonable for home defense?

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by SRO1911 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:21 pm

A 22 long rifle will absolutely put down a 2 legged varmint. The question is will it put them down before they do unspeakable things to you you unmentionables?
Nobody wants to get shot, it hurts - trust me I know. But ouch factor doesn't play in to stopping the threat. Structural damage, cns disruption and, massive volume change tend to be more effective - a . 22 has the potential to do all 3, but so does a well thrown rock... With similar outcomes.
Get a 22 to train and play, but work on getting into something more appropriate for serious social purposes. We all had to start somewhere, and I'm not about to mock or disparage anyone starting down the right road - think of you ar22 as a first step, not the whole journey.

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by raptor » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:23 pm

Well said SRO1911!

I do not think anyone here would chose a .22lr as their most desired self defense firearm.
Rimfire ammo is noted for its less than desirable levels of reliability.

That said the first rule of self defense is to have a fire arm.
So to the extent that you have a fire arm that is lot better than nothing.

I offer as proof a test on that very premise. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w4Z5azEPWk

So if I had choice of a .22lr pistol or harsh words for self defense I would gladly take the .22lr.

I would suggest use of higher quality ammo like CCI stingers or Velociters to reduce the odds of ammo issues. The stingers in a rifle tend to expand very well but not penetrate deeply on small game. They also have a lighter bullet wight so I would likely go with the Velociters or even a solid point with the intent to get better penetration.

The key in my mind to this is practice and decent shot placement.

I agree get the .22lr and a lot of practice.

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by lailr » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:11 pm

While .22 can kill, I think it's way too underpowered for self defense. The idea (at least from a legal perspective) is to stop the threat as quickly as possible.

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by raptor » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:16 pm

This is an article complete with gel tests by Lucky Gunner with a good discussion of using a .22lr in a short barrel pocket pistol.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why- ... estimated/

It should provide one perspective on the use of a .22lr.

This article discusses .22lr reliability:
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/is-2 ... f-defense/

This site also has a good and comprehensive set of gel tests on a wide variety of ammunition.

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by MacWa77ace » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:39 pm

How much money are you saving buying a dedicated 22 AR vs an AR with a 22 conversion kit?

Is there a budget your working to stay within? Because if you have $700-800 you can buy an actual AR plus buy a 22 conversion for it in that price range. But if you buy the dedicated 22 AR, you can't really go the other way up into 223/556 IIRC. So if you ever wanted to go that way you have to buy another rifle.

Starter ARs can be had in the 400-500 range these days and the conversion kit is in the $150-250- range. Aren't MP 15 22 sports in the $350 400 range these days?

I think you're only out the price of the conversion kit plus maybe $50 to do it this way; Buy the AR this month and the conversion kit next month to spread it out if necessary.

And then down the road you can buy different caliber uppers for the lower you already have to get into pistol calibers, or 7.62x39, 300 BO, different barrel lengths, etc, etc. but by that time you'd be addicted and have 3 or 4 AR's anyhow. :mrgreen:
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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by RickOShea » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:50 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:39 pm
How much money are you saving buying a dedicated 22 AR vs an AR with a 22 conversion kit?

Is there a budget your working to stay within?

viewtopic.php?f=109&t=123621
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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by lailr » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:53 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:39 pm
How much money are you saving buying a dedicated 22 AR vs an AR with a 22 conversion kit?

Is there a budget your working to stay within? Because if you have $700-800 you can buy an actual AR plus buy a 22 conversion for it in that price range. But if you buy the dedicated 22 AR, you can't really go the other way up into 223/556 IIRC. So if you ever wanted to go that way you have to buy another rifle.

Starter ARs can be had in the 400-500 range these days and the conversion kit is in the $150-250- range. Aren't MP 15 22 sports in the $350 400 range these days?

I think you're only out the price of the conversion kit plus maybe $50 to do it this way; Buy the AR this month and the conversion kit next month to spread it out if necessary.

And then down the road you can buy different caliber uppers for the lower you already have to get into pistol calibers, or 7.62x39, 300 BO, different barrel lengths, etc, etc. but by that time you'd be addicted and have 3 or 4 AR's anyhow. :mrgreen:


Again, PSA'S Daily Deals, my buddy just got an AR in OD Green for $350. You just have to by the upper and lower separate, and usually put a rear sight on it.

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by Mechphisto » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:05 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:39 pm
How much money are you saving buying a dedicated 22 AR vs an AR with a 22 conversion kit?
Is there a budget your working to stay within?
(...)
Weird, thought I'd replied already but it's not showing...
Anyway, yeah, $350 is my top range (so I'm also thinking Hi-Point 995TS 9mm), so I know I could get the S&W M&P 22LR for that and it's good quality (so long as I use only CCI rounds in it, it looks like).
But if I want and AR, I really would have to spend closer to a grand for quality.
That said, I really do like the idea of having an AR and converting to .22 ... sounds like a pretty excellent compromise... if I can get the extra to spend on it and let it sit for a while til I can get the conversion kit since I can't afford 5.56 ammo LOL

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by lailr » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:10 pm

Mechphisto wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:05 pm
MacWa77ace wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:39 pm
How much money are you saving buying a dedicated 22 AR vs an AR with a 22 conversion kit?
Is there a budget your working to stay within?
(...)
Weird, thought I'd replied already but it's not showing...
Anyway, yeah, $350 is my top range (so I'm also thinking Hi-Point 995TS 9mm), so I know I could get the S&W M&P 22LR for that and it's good quality (so long as I use only CCI rounds in it, it looks like).
But if I want and AR, I really would have to spend closer to a grand for quality.
That said, I really do like the idea of having an AR and converting to .22 ... sounds like a pretty excellent compromise... if I can get the extra to spend on it and let it sit for a while til I can get the conversion kit since I can't afford 5.56 ammo LOL

Man, their is NOTHING wrong with PSA quality. I know of two local Sheriff's Offices using them for patrol Rifles. A grand is super high for an AR nowadays. Even like a S&W AR is going for like $450 nowadays. And won't stay like that forever

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by MacWa77ace » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:06 pm

Mechphisto wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:05 pm
MacWa77ace wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:39 pm
How much money are you saving buying a dedicated 22 AR vs an AR with a 22 conversion kit?
Is there a budget your working to stay within?
(...)
Weird, thought I'd replied already but it's not showing...
Anyway, yeah, $350 is my top range (so I'm also thinking Hi-Point 995TS 9mm), so I know I could get the S&W M&P 22LR for that and it's good quality (so long as I use only CCI rounds in it, it looks like).
But if I want and AR, I really would have to spend closer to a grand for quality.
That said, I really do like the idea of having an AR and converting to .22 ... sounds like a pretty excellent compromise... if I can get the extra to spend on it and let it sit for a while til I can get the conversion kit since I can't afford 5.56 ammo LOL
S&W AR's are mid market in 22 or multi-cal IMO. Similar quality brands can be had for almost exactly the same price as the S&W 22 AR, but in 223/556.
lailr wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:53 pm
MacWa77ace wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:39 pm
How much money are you saving buying a dedicated 22 AR vs an AR with a 22 conversion kit?

Is there a budget your working to stay within? Because if you have $700-800 you can buy an actual AR plus buy a 22 conversion for it in that price range. But if you buy the dedicated 22 AR, you can't really go the other way up into 223/556 IIRC. So if you ever wanted to go that way you have to buy another rifle.

Starter ARs can be had in the 400-500 range these days and the conversion kit is in the $150-250- range. Aren't MP 15 22 sports in the $350 400 range these days?

I think you're only out the price of the conversion kit plus maybe $50 to do it this way; Buy the AR this month and the conversion kit next month to spread it out if necessary.

And then down the road you can buy different caliber uppers for the lower you already have to get into pistol calibers, or 7.62x39, 300 BO, different barrel lengths, etc, etc. but by that time you'd be addicted and have 3 or 4 AR's anyhow. :mrgreen:




Again, PSA'S Daily Deals, my buddy just got an AR in OD Green for $350. You just have to by the upper and lower separate, and usually put a rear sight on it.


So that's $350 this month for a real AR and $150 next month to convert it to a 22. That works out to $250 / month for the next two months or $500 total and you've basically got two guns. You can't beat that deal.
[not including tax, shipping, transfer, and accessories]

First kit i could find, google/bing for better prices. https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/cmmg-br ... 17129.html
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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by lailr » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:53 pm


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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by Mechphisto » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:02 pm

OK, THAT'S intriguing! Though a quick look I'm finding .22LR uppers for the same cost as a S&W M&P 15-22 complete. Though I imagine if I look around careful I could find something as cheap as that 5.56 upper.

But the big question is... What kind of quality is that??
Yeah, I can't spend much, but I don't want to find a great deal only to find it's really poor quality.

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by Mechphisto » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:15 pm

Also, I've never owned an AR before, so I'm not very knowledgeable... Am I correct is understanding all I'd need would be that $130 lower you linked, this $340 22LR upper I'm linking, and aside from magazines, that's a complete and functioning gun?
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16- ... 46934.html

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by RickOShea » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:40 pm

Mechphisto wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:15 pm
Also, I've never owned an AR before, so I'm not very knowledgeable... Am I correct is understanding all I'd need would be that $130 lower you linked, this $340 22LR upper I'm linking, and aside from magazines, that's a complete and functioning gun?
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16- ... 46934.html
That lower lailr posted has a pistol buffer tube and pistol "brace", instead of a buttstock. This lower comes with the collapsible buttstock:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/complet ... ition.html
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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by woodsghost » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:53 pm

Mechphisto wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:15 pm
Also, I've never owned an AR before, so I'm not very knowledgeable... Am I correct is understanding all I'd need would be that $130 lower you linked, this $340 22LR upper I'm linking, and aside from magazines, that's a complete and functioning gun?
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16- ... 46934.html
You could, but you would have a .22 rifle. And only a .22. if you got a different barrel and a .22 adapter, you can have both a .22 LR rifle and a .223/5.56 rifle in one. That opens up options if you decide you want more punch than a .22 can provide.

By the way, the upper that was linked further above lacked a "bolt carrier group." When you see "no BCG," that is what that means. A bolt carrier would be another $100. However, PSA has some kits for about $320-$350 which include everything but the receiver. So you pay $320 for most of the rifle, $40+FFL fee ($25-$45, depending on your local prices, $65-$85 total), and have a .223/5.56 rifle for a little less than $400. Then you get a .22 LR adapter for $150 (next month, or whenever you can afford it) and have what is essentially 2 guns for a total of around $550. That is what was suggested further above, and that gives a LOT of flexibility for hunting, defense, plinking, or whatever. Anyway, just a thought.

Or get the upper you linked to and get another upper some other time when you decide on another caliber. You will have flexibility. It will just cost a little more.
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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by lailr » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:24 pm

BCG'S can be had for $40

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by lailr » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:27 pm


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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by lailr » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:28 pm

Or buy a stripped lower, and this kit. Youtube will tell you how to put it together

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16- ... e-kit.html

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by lailr » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:33 pm

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-gen ... g-ch1.html

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-px9 ... 49942.html



Or go back to your pistol caliber. That's more like $500, but an AR in 9mm.



*Actually, sorry, I wasn't paying attention, but you need a pistol type lower, and I posted a rifle type

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by woodsghost » Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:54 pm

lailr wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:24 pm
BCG'S can be had for $40
Oh! I didn't realize that. I have not been shopping for them in a while. Thanks!
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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by moab » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:34 am

Mechphisto wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:15 pm
Also, I've never owned an AR before, so I'm not very knowledgeable... Am I correct is understanding all I'd need would be that $130 lower you linked, this $340 22LR upper I'm linking, and aside from magazines, that's a complete and functioning gun?
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16- ... 46934.html
You asked for advice. And got excellent advice. And then thoroughly ignored it. lmao. Dude. A .22lr for self defense is terrible at best. You can get a VERY GOOD AR in 5.56 for $350-$400. And I mean VERY GOOD. Again, in 5.56. Which IS AN EXCELLENT DEFENSIVE ROUND. UNLIKE THE .22LR!

Palmetto State Armory makes VERY GOOD AR's. So does S&W (Smith & Wesson). And no they are not "really poor quality". I think at least 4 or 5 people have told you that in this thread.

The advantage to .22lr is training. Your right it's a cheaper round. So once you buy your VERY GOOD defensive weapon from PSA or S&W in 5.56. You save up another hundred and fifty and buy the .22lr conversion kit for your 5.56 AR. Then you can shoot .22lr out of it for training. And 5.56 for an actual defensive round. The best of both worlds.

But what slays me is you've been told the above like three or four times now. And you continue to come back to "does anyone know if this .22 caliber AR will work?".

What EVERYONE has told you is an AR in .22lr sucks. And it's real simple. For about $350 you can buy an AR that can be both a 5.56 and a .22lr. Or you can spend $350 on a .22lr AR that CAN NOT BE CONVERTED TO 5.56. Which sucks.
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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by emclean » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:34 am

the only thing I have to add to moab's post, is that the only reason to pick a 22lr for self defense is if you have a condition that makes you too recoil sensitive to shoot anything else.

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Re: 22LR in a rifle, ok for defense?

Post by lailr » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:57 am

S&W MP for sale in your price range

https://palmettostatearmory.com/s-w-m-p ... 3a00+Email

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