New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

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New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by Stercutus » Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:58 am

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/judge ... spartanntp


After the Measles outbreak I am calling this a win. If you want to make your kids a public health risk by not getting vaccines that is on you. Don't expect everyone else to think it is a good idea. Home school is always an option.
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by IANMCDEVITT » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:52 am

I agree. Buncha fruit cakes......friggin state's gone way down hill. They should issue everyone parachutes to evac that place.

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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by woodsghost » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:18 pm

Regarding New York: their political choices are something I cannot agree with. But I don't live there and so I say "as long as you don't try and force me to live by your rules, you keep being you."

Regarding the decisions on vaccination: I"m not real excited about governments or others telling me what to do. I think the ranks of homeschoolers will be glad to welcome them. Homeschoolers tend to be a counter-cultural crowd anyway.

Regarding vaccines: The research I"m seeing says there is not a link between "vaccines" and autism. There is a link between "vaccine fillers" and autism. Especially aluminum. There may also be a link between those vaccines which include "human particulate" and autism. Time will tell. I come from a family with an abundance of autism, so those kids/grand kids/great grand kids who display early signs of autism are not getting vaccinated against much. Those who don't show any early signs are getting the regular round, but on a slightly delayed schedule.

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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by Stercutus » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:57 pm

We will overlook the logical fallacy trap you have fallen in to for the moment.

Your first reference had Judy Mickovits on the front page. Not exactly a paragon of reliable scientific research there. And nothing about vaccines.

The second link I think had a listing of fetal tissues used (or in some cases previously used) in the production of vaccines. Of no use here in the context of what you are saying.

The third link had to do with some spectro results:
These are some of the highest values for aluminium in human brain tissue yet recorded and one has to question why, for example, the aluminium content of the occipital lobe of a 15 year old boy would be 8.74 (11.59) μg/g dry wt.? Aluminium-selective fluorescence microscopy was used to identify aluminium in brain tissue in 10 donors.
While that may indeed be interesting... Why would this person have such an elevated level of aluminum? Is there some kind of causal relationship with vaccines? There is absolutely nothing to indicate that at all. And if it is such an abnormal case how could it possibly be related to vaccines? The vast majority of the population would have it. But who cares? There is more aluminum in breast milk and 30 times as much in Baby formula. Are they saying the extra 4mg is going to throw it over the top? Having trouble suspending disbelief.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/201 ... /96454552/

In the end the aluminum thing is just another red herring in an endless line of red herrings from the anti-vaxers. Just like everything was supposed to be about mercury last decade until they got rid of the mercury and now it is about the aluminum because there is no more mercury. If the aluminum were gone it would be replaced with something else.


But back to the logical fallacy. The study proving vaccines are safe was done on vaccines with all the ingredient elements in it. Therefore...
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by emclean » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:51 am

woodsghost wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:18 pm
Regarding the decisions on vaccination: I"m not real excited about governments or others telling me what to do. I think the ranks of homeschoolers will be glad to welcome them. Homeschoolers tend to be a counter-cultural crowd anyway.
but the government isn't telling them what to do, it is just setting the minimum standards for attending public school. considering that they will likely be held accountable (in civil court) for what happens to the other students, I feel that is reasonable.

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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by CG » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:19 am

emclean wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:51 am
woodsghost wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:18 pm
Regarding the decisions on vaccination: I"m not real excited about governments or others telling me what to do. I think the ranks of homeschoolers will be glad to welcome them. Homeschoolers tend to be a counter-cultural crowd anyway.
but the government isn't telling them what to do, it is just setting the minimum standards for attending public school. considering that they will likely be held accountable (in civil court) for what happens to the other students, I feel that is reasonable.
And when it starts setting "minimum standards" for other things it does, like paying out Social Security and disability payments, entering government buildings like the DMV and the tax office, or hospitals, or...

Where is the line indicating where you would think it's a problem since this is "just setting the minimum standards for attending public school?"
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by JayceSlayn » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:27 am

CG wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:19 am
emclean wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:51 am
woodsghost wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:18 pm
Regarding the decisions on vaccination: I"m not real excited about governments or others telling me what to do. I think the ranks of homeschoolers will be glad to welcome them. Homeschoolers tend to be a counter-cultural crowd anyway.
but the government isn't telling them what to do, it is just setting the minimum standards for attending public school. considering that they will likely be held accountable (in civil court) for what happens to the other students, I feel that is reasonable.
And when it starts setting "minimum standards" for other things it does, like paying out Social Security and disability payments, entering government buildings like the DMV and the tax office, or hospitals, or...

Where is the line indicating where you would think it's a problem since this is "just setting the minimum standards for attending public school?"
I see that we are straying the line of politics for this forum within this thread, but I will try to back us away from specific politics somewhat...

The government already has minimum standards for the services you listed as well:
Social Security - You must be alive, etc.
Disability - You must be alive, and you must be disabled, etc.
Entering Government Buildings - No weapons allowed, etc.

The government in within its grant to enforce standards on the services it provides, for the benefit of the public to which it provides services. A perfect government has never existed - one without corruption or the failings of the humans who must run it - but in general we enjoy a mostly decent government here in the US (here I refer to "government" as not just the highest/showiest tier, but all the institutions down to your neighborhood letter carrier).

The charter of government (i.e. the philosophy of government) is to enforce laws (rules) for the benefit of its public. Taking such a broad view of "benefit" inherently means that compromises must be made in many areas, but under the auspices of benefiting public health, the government is correct in using the best available knowledge of the day to ensure that they limit risks to public health. Risk arising from a potentially lethal (and at least temporarily debilitating) transmissible disease is an important one. However, for the instance of measles (and a host of other diseases, e.g. smallpox, polio, etc.) whose risk has been demonstrated to be practically eliminated by an uncomplicated treatment (vaccination) with negligible side effects or contraindications (actually nearing zero - it is close to the safest medical procedure you can have done, including getting just a saline IV), is the kind of amazing solution that we used to only dream about. Thanks to decades of research and practice by tens of thousands of people who are genuinely interested in improving the lives of others and humanity in general, we no longer have to dream about the near magic bullet that is vaccination against diseases.

Unfortunately, we've taken a few steps backward lately from the few great leaps forward in recent years, and we haven't been able to kick measles the way of smallpox just yet. I encourage us to get to the point where we can start our Wikipedia article on measles and the rest with "Measles was...", just like the article of smallpox is today. "Was" is really a great word.
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by Stercutus » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:39 am

No need to conflate other issues here.

In this particular case the government is reflecting the overwhelming will of the people out of concern for public safety supported strongly by science and validated by over 130 years of positive results. The fact that some have fallen prey to a disinformation program is sad and concerning but a problem as old as society itself. I have always noted over the years that in the face of overwhelming evidence; people will believe whatever they want to believe.
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by CG » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:23 am

Stercutus wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:39 am
No need to conflate other issues here.

In this particular case the government is reflecting the overwhelming will of the people out of concern for public safety supported strongly by science and validated by over 130 years of positive results. The fact that some have fallen prey to a disinformation program is sad and concerning but a problem as old as society itself. I have always noted over the years that in the face of overwhelming evidence; people will believe whatever they want to believe.
I would argue that while we might have 130 years of positive results, there has been practically no investigation of the cumulative effects of the number and types of vaccines now recommended. This does not mean I'm anti-vaccine - it means I'd like to see studies done with good scientific method on the current recommended vaccine schedule before agreeing that the government has the right to withhold services for not following their directives.
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by Stercutus » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:44 am

It isn't 130 positive results. It is 20,000,000,000 positive results. It is completely changing the face of mankind from one scarred with pox and dying young to one of a long and healthy life. You want to see the shit hit the fan for real? Take vaccines out of society tomorrow and make us unable to have them for 25 years. Given our current living conditions (mostly closely packed urban societies) "the great die off" should begin in a 2-3 years. Within five we will spread disease unlike anything we have seen since the Black Death. Within 15 years the mortality rate of children under ten will be about 20%. Since it is so easy to travel there will be no place on Earth that is safe.

People seem to have forgotten how much life sucked "back then". It is has left living memory.
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by Sun Yeti » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:59 am

It's not out of living memory: my dad had a younger brother who died of polio when they were kids. And yet, my dad is still somewhat skeptical of vaccines, in spite of overwhelming evidence and personal experience.

It seems to only take a few years after a problem is pretty much solved before people forget it was ever a problem. I'm expecting the campaigns against handwashing/soap on my facebook feed any day now. There are already people that think that eating raw meat and drinking 'raw' water is healthier.
I find it uniquely frustrating that so many preppers have their heads in the sand about climate change.

But, I've come to realize there's no point in arguing with someone if there's no possible evidence you could present that would actually change their mind.

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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by CG » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:44 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:44 am
It isn't 130 positive results. It is 20,000,000,000 positive results. It is completely changing the face of mankind from one scarred with pox and dying young to one of a long and healthy life. You want to see the shit hit the fan for real? Take vaccines out of society tomorrow and make us unable to have them for 25 years. Given our current living conditions (mostly closely packed urban societies) "the great die off" should begin in a 2-3 years. Within five we will spread disease unlike anything we have seen since the Black Death. Within 15 years the mortality rate of children under ten will be about 20%. Since it is so easy to travel there will be no place on Earth that is safe.

People seem to have forgotten how much life sucked "back then". It is has left living memory.
This is the problem with arguing for any sort of research into vaccines. I'm not saying take vaccines out of society tomorrow. I'm saying maybe we should do more research before considering it standard practice to use children as guinea pigs for large numbers of them combined.
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by Stercutus » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:42 pm

CG wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:44 pm
This is the problem with arguing for any sort of research into vaccines. I'm not saying take vaccines out of society tomorrow. I'm saying maybe we should do more research before considering it standard practice to use children as guinea pigs for large numbers of them combined.
The experimentation phase is long over. It has been standard practice for decades. Your straw man in to equating it to a science experiment on children is like calling the people driving cars with internal combustion engines guinea pigs. Lots of people drive cars and die. Very seldom is it because the engine exploded. But at least there we can point to an observable relationship. With autism and vaccines there is none.
There are already people that think that eating raw meat and drinking 'raw' water is healthier.

The "raw" water thing is one of the most successful scams I have seen in years. Remember to drink it in 30 days or it will turn magically turn green because it is "raw". It's not algae growing in there we pinky promise.
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by emclean » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:33 am

Stercutus wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:42 pm
CG wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:44 pm
This is the problem with arguing for any sort of research into vaccines. I'm not saying take vaccines out of society tomorrow. I'm saying maybe we should do more research before considering it standard practice to use children as guinea pigs for large numbers of them combined.
The experimentation phase is long over. It has been standard practice for decades. Your straw man in to equating it to a science experiment on children is like calling the people driving cars with internal combustion engines guinea pigs. Lots of people drive cars and die. Very seldom is it because the engine exploded. But at least there we can point to an observable relationship. With autism and vaccines there is none.
this is true of many vaccines, but as an example, the HPV vaccine (first FDA approved in 2006), is one that the company that manufactured it is pushing to become mandatory. is doesn't have a long history.
the chicken pox vaccine is just now reaching decades of use.

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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by Stercutus » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:54 am

emclean wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:33 am
Stercutus wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:42 pm
CG wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:44 pm
This is the problem with arguing for any sort of research into vaccines. I'm not saying take vaccines out of society tomorrow. I'm saying maybe we should do more research before considering it standard practice to use children as guinea pigs for large numbers of them combined.
The experimentation phase is long over. It has been standard practice for decades. Your straw man in to equating it to a science experiment on children is like calling the people driving cars with internal combustion engines guinea pigs. Lots of people drive cars and die. Very seldom is it because the engine exploded. But at least there we can point to an observable relationship. With autism and vaccines there is none.
this is true of many vaccines, but as an example, the HPV vaccine (first FDA approved in 2006), is one that the company that manufactured it is pushing to become mandatory. is doesn't have a long history.
the chicken pox vaccine is just now reaching decades of use.
That is true there have only been about 100,000,000 doses administered in 13 years with no serious side effects. Who knows maybe it is waiting for us around the corner?

However, I am of the opinion that HPV should be voluntary. While it is very likely to prevent you from getting an infection and seriously reduces your risk of cancer these are much less of a risk to the public than a highly communicable disease like measles. I may think you are an idiot not to get the vaccine but the odds of you killing me, my wife and kids through ignorance is extremely low.
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by raptor » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:46 pm

What is interesting about this case and one most are missing here is that kids which are not vaccinated are primarily hasidic Jews. They are not worried so much about autism as they are concerned about vaccines as contrary to religious belief

Personally I do not agree with the .gov mandating vaccines. This despite the fact i personally stay current on my personal vaccinations.

There are risks to everything including vaccines. You have to weigh the risk of the vaccine against the risk of contracting the prevented illness as well as the risk from the illness. Some are no brainers like hepatitis, pneumonia, flu, MMR; all fit in the category of high probability of contraction and potentially serious consequences. Others like rabies, yellow fever and cholera fall at the other side of that spectrum in terms of risk of contraction. Still the consequences from contracting them are quite severe.

People should make thier own choices...me I will be in the vacinne line because I know others will skip it. ..and if they get infected that is thier consequence for thier choice.

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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by Stercutus » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:55 am

I'd like to point out that since this thread has started Measles has spread to a number of states, some of which have had no cases in years. At some point we should be able to move this thread to DICE. :(


https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html

From January 1 to April 19, 2019, 626** individual cases of measles have been confirmed in 22 states. This is an increase of 71 cases from the previous week. This is the second-greatest number of cases reported in the U.S. since measles was eliminated in 2000, second only to the 667 cases reported during all of 2014. In the coming weeks, 2019 confirmed case numbers will likely surpass 2014 levels.
Merica' Bringing back the Measles "just because".
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by boskone » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:34 pm

raptor wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:46 pm
What is interesting about this case and one most are missing here is that kids which are not vaccinated are primarily hasidic Jews. They are not worried so much about autism as they are concerned about vaccines as contrary to religious belief

Personally I do not agree with the .gov mandating vaccines. This despite the fact i personally stay current on my personal vaccinations.

There are risks to everything including vaccines. You have to weigh the risk of the vaccine against the risk of contracting the prevented illness as well as the risk from the illness. Some are no brainers like hepatitis, pneumonia, flu, MMR; all fit in the category of high probability of contraction and potentially serious consequences. Others like rabies, yellow fever and cholera fall at the other side of that spectrum in terms of risk of contraction. Still the consequences from contracting them are quite severe.

People should make thier own choices...me I will be in the vacinne line because I know others will skip it. ..and if they get infected that is thier conseqience for thier choice.
I'd agree, if their choice were restricted to themselves. Make a private school, maybe.

However, as vaccines only increase one's resistance it's quite possible to fall ill even when vaccinated, and being around unvaccinated people increases that risk.

Some people can't be vaccinated (e.g. immunocompromised), or can't take specific vaccines (I think pregnant women are advised to avoid some?). That's a risk, but I doubt there are (in this case) 44 people in the entire school--and possibly the entire school system--who for whatever reason can't be vaccinated. So those 44 who can but won't (or wouldn't) be vaccinated represent a huge general risk increase to the population.

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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by raptor » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:16 pm

IMO with regard to the risk a person has from an MMR vaccine, the drive in the car with the requisite stop at the fast food du jour for a sympathy kids meal is about 10x the risk from the MMR vaccine.

I deal with this issue with my employees. I want them to get the flu vaccine ( as well as others). I want them healthy and working. I could say get one or else. I don't.

Instead I offer an inventive. It varies each year but a carrot is generally more effective than a stick.

In this case not surprisingly the pwers that be demonstrate thier inability to use anyhing but a stick.What NY should do is quarantine the in vaccinated kids in separate classes. They should not allow them to mingle at all. Not at recess, studyhall lunch...no co-mingling.




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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by flybynight » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:00 am

raptor wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:16 pm
IMO with regard to the risk a person has from an MMR vaccine, the drive in the car with the requisite stop at the fast food du jour for a sympathy kids meal is about 10x the risk from the MMR vaccine.

I deal with this issue with my employees. I want them to get the flu vaccine ( as well as others). I want them healthy and working. I could say get one or else. I don't.

Instead I offer an inventive. It varies each year but a carrot is generally more effective than a stick.

In this case not surprisingly the pwers that be demonstrate thier inability to use anyhing but a stick.What NY should do is quarantine the in vaccinated kids in separate classes. They should not allow them to mingle at all. Not at recess, studyhall lunch...no co-mingling.


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Separate rest rooms, separate drinking fountains. Hmm I seem to remember a picture of something similar
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Re: New York denies request to allow 44 unvaccinated students back in class

Post by raptor » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:21 am

Yep...separate everything...that is the point.
That is exactly what they are doing now by not admitting them.
It simply is easier for them to suspend them. The optics look better to the public.
No one can invoke the"separate yet equal" line that way.

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