Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Stercutus » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:49 am

NT2C wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:17 pm
Just a reminder to be extra cautious about firearms in your vehicles:

Carjacker used teen's own rifle to rob him of vehicle at Little Rock park, authorities say
This guy was epic fail. :clap:

Man shot with own gun while trying to rob man on Detroit's west side

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/man ... -west-side
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by NT2C » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:16 am

Ordered some ammo late this afternoon and was shocked when an hour later I got an email saying it had been shipped. Looks like someone wanted the orders cleaned out before the weekend. UPS, of course, is going to take their sweet time with it. It's coming from Shreveport, LA but they don't expect to deliver it until Wednesday.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by NT2C » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:20 am

Some firearm owners just shouldn't be...

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by flybynight » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:08 am

NT2C wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:20 am
Some firearm owners just shouldn't be...

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With the exception of the bubba scope mount . I LIKE IT a lot :crazy:
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by Stercutus » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:24 am

Makes me yearn for a .50AE tommy gun. That would be a bad ass gun. You would need to take out a house note to buy ammo though.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by MPMalloy » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:38 am

Stercutus wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:24 am
Makes me yearn for a .50AE tommy gun. That would be a bad ass gun. You would need to take out a house note to buy ammo though.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by MacWa77ace » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:46 am

Can anyone help me identify the mfr of this front rail?

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and in case the hotlink goes away. https://floridaguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=747029
I wouldn't buy this gun, there seems to be a timing issue with the barrel nut but I like the rail.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by RickOShea » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:40 pm

MacWa77ace wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:46 am
Can anyone help me identify the mfr of this front rail?
Davidson Defense 17" Ultra Lite Slant Pro M-Lok Handguard and/or Vector Optics M-LOK Free Float 17" Slim Slant Handguard.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:12 pm

I am sure everyone has see the excellent Lucky Gunner tests on ammo. They updated for a new HST Micro round that Federal has produced in .38 special. I saw these and really liked them for various wheel guns I have. This test is interesting since this round performed on par with many 9mm rounds for penetration and expansion in the 2 test fire arms. A Kimber with a 2 inch barrel and a Ruger with a 4 inch barrel.

However, as lagniappe, the tester also used a S&W 342 with a 1 7/8 inch barrel and got significantly reduced test results.

This is an example of barrel length is not everything that determined velocity.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/test ... special-p/
With the 2-inch barrel, we got an average penetration depth of 13 inches — that’s inside of the 12-18 inch standard used by the FBI. Average expansion was an impressive .73 inches. The 4-inch barrel gave us a velocity increase around 30 feet per second, but the gel test results were not much different. Penetration was an inch deeper and expansion was roughly the same. Compared to the 18 other .38 Special loads we have tested so far, this is excellent performance. The Remington Golden Saber and the Winchester PDX-1 were among the best .38s from our first batch of testing, but the HST looks to have a slight advantage in terms of expansion.

This is actually on par with the best expansion we’ve seen from even 9mm and .357 magnum. It’s not difficult to see how Federal was able to achieve this. The wide open front of the .38 HST bullet is almost what you might call “pre-expanded.” So it doesn’t get plugged up with the fabric and when it hits the gel, it doesn’t take much for it to open up.

I’ve been pretty impressed with this ammo so far, and in my experience, Federal has some of the best quality control in the ammo industry, so I prefer loading their stuff in my carry guns if at all possible. With that in mind, yesterday I went out to the range to run some of this HST through the Smith & Wesson 342PD J-frame that I carry sometimes. I wanted to check out the point of impact and the recoil in this little 11-ounce monster and at the last minute, I decided to get some chronograph readings too.

The barrel is only an eighth of an inch shorter than the 2-inch Kimber test gun, but every revolver is like a unique snowflake and you can’t always assume it will shoot within a specific velocity range based on barrel length alone. This turned out to be a perfect example. The Smith averaged 782 feet per second. That’s pretty slow — it’s 42 feet per second less than the Kimber, which I thought might be enough of a change to potentially have a measurable impact on terminal ballistics.

When fired from the S&W 342PD, the HST bullets lost a significant amount of velocity and performance in the gelatin suffered as well.
I actually happened to have one spare block of gelatin at the range and some pieces of our heavy clothing fabric barrier, so I did a quick gel test. The first shot looked really nice. Same kind of expansion as before with a respectable penetration depth of 12.8 inches. But (and here’s why we always do a five shot test), the next bullets did not penetrate quite as well. One of them hardly expanded and only made it to 10.4 inches.

So it looks like this bullet needs a minimum velocity around 800 feet per second in order to give it the best chance of meeting the FBI standard. Even though some of these were under the 12-inch ideal minimum, by .38 Special standards, this is actually not terrible performance overall. I probably would not carry it in this particular gun just because it’s so light and I’d rather have a standard pressure low recoil load that will let me get back on target quicker. With a slightly heavier gun, I would strongly consider using the HST, especially if the velocity clocked in at 800 or better.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by NT2C » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:40 pm

So, maybe use the +P version in those really short barrels? That should get the velocity back up there. (Edit: just saw that this was the +P)

I'd made the HST (Federal says it stands for "Hydra-Shok Two) my carry round in both my 9mm and my .45ACP, and then the Hydra-Shok Deep came out for the 9mm and I really liked the performance on those so I sprang for a few boxes and tested to ensure they'll cycle and feed properly in my 9mm, then made them my new carry round. I expect they'll probably also make a version for the .38 eventually, after maybe making them in .40 and .45ACP.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by woodsghost » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:35 pm

raptor wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:12 pm
I am sure everyone has see the excellent Lucky Gunner tests on ammo. They updated for a new HST Micro round that Federal has produced in .38 special. I saw these and really liked them for various wheel guns I have. This test is interesting since this round performed on par with many 9mm rounds for penetration and expansion in the 2 test fire arms. A Kimber with a 2 inch barrel and a Ruger with a 4 inch barrel.

However, as lagniappe, the tester also used a S&W 342 with a 1 7/8 inch barrel and got significantly reduced test results.

This is an example of barrel length is not everything that determined velocity.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/test ... special-p/
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by JeeperCreeper » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:04 pm

Speaking of .38 snubbies, MAC just did a test of 9mm, .38 spec, and .357 mag in 2" bbls. Basically, with normal-ish ammo, the 9mm bested all the others out of such a short barrel.

So no matter the round and platform, pick a good ammo for the application.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by raptor » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:27 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:04 pm
Speaking of .38 snubbies, MAC just did a test of 9mm, .38 spec, and .357 mag in 2" bbls. Basically, with normal-ish ammo, the 9mm bested all the others out of such a short barrel.

So no matter the round and platform, pick a good ammo for the application.
Lucky gunners gel tests also seem to validate that finding. The one thing the LG tests did show IMO was that 9mm (with the right load and projectile of course) is a very effective SD round.

38/357 tests
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolv ... tics-test/

.380/9mm/.40 S&W/.45 ACP

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-d ... tic-tests/

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by JeeperCreeper » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:40 pm

raptor wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:27 pm
JeeperCreeper wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:04 pm
Speaking of .38 snubbies, MAC just did a test of 9mm, .38 spec, and .357 mag in 2" bbls. Basically, with normal-ish ammo, the 9mm bested all the others out of such a short barrel.

So no matter the round and platform, pick a good ammo for the application.
Lucky gunners gel tests also seem to validate that finding. The one thing the LG tests did show IMO was that 9mm (with the right load and projectile of course) is a very effective SD round.

38/357 tests
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolv ... tics-test/

.380/9mm/.40 S&W/.45 ACP

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-d ... tic-tests/
I love that Lucky Gunner ammo testing. Def the best on the internet. Mix that with Ballistics By the Inch, and you have a complete library data to sift through.

I will say that I am disappointed in the .45ACP out of their short barrels. But then again, I think the .45ACP is not a CCW round as much as a home defense and woods round. Longer barrel (4"-5") with spicy loads (.45 Super and SMC)
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by NT2C » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:20 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:40 pm

I will say that I am disappointed in the .45ACP out of their short barrels. But then again, I think the .45ACP is not a CCW round as much as a home defense and woods round. Longer barrel (4"-5") with spicy loads (.45 Super and SMC)
I beg to differ. May I call your attention to the 230gr Federal HST results? Smack dead in the middle of the ideal penetration range with full expansion of every round. This is my carry load in my 45 Shield and I have every confidence in it being able to stop a threat if called upon.

That being said, I do tend to switch to my 9mm in the winter when it's easier to carry it concealed, but that's more for the capacity (17+1 vs 6+1) than anything else.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by JeeperCreeper » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:19 pm

NT2C wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:20 pm
JeeperCreeper wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:40 pm

I will say that I am disappointed in the .45ACP out of their short barrels. But then again, I think the .45ACP is not a CCW round as much as a home defense and woods round. Longer barrel (4"-5") with spicy loads (.45 Super and SMC)
I beg to differ. May I call your attention to the 230gr Federal HST results? Smack dead in the middle of the ideal penetration range with full expansion of every round. This is my carry load in my 45 Shield and I have every confidence in it being able to stop a threat if called upon.

That being said, I do tend to switch to my 9mm in the winter when it's easier to carry it concealed, but that's more for the capacity (17+1 vs 6+1) than anything else.
Oh, def those rounds were legit. But many of the other .45 were not. I think the extra velocity of the 9mm makes them more reliable for expansion across the board, even with more crappy ammo.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by RickOShea » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:43 pm

LOL. How does the old saying go...."Hopefully your 9mm will expand, but at least the .45 won't shrink." Image




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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by NT2C » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:50 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:19 pm
NT2C wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:20 pm
JeeperCreeper wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:40 pm

I will say that I am disappointed in the .45ACP out of their short barrels. But then again, I think the .45ACP is not a CCW round as much as a home defense and woods round. Longer barrel (4"-5") with spicy loads (.45 Super and SMC)
I beg to differ. May I call your attention to the 230gr Federal HST results? Smack dead in the middle of the ideal penetration range with full expansion of every round. This is my carry load in my 45 Shield and I have every confidence in it being able to stop a threat if called upon.

That being said, I do tend to switch to my 9mm in the winter when it's easier to carry it concealed, but that's more for the capacity (17+1 vs 6+1) than anything else.
Oh, def those rounds were legit. But many of the other .45 were not. I think the extra velocity of the 9mm makes them more reliable for expansion across the board, even with more crappy ammo.
You'll get no argument from me on the velocity being the main factor in getting proper expansion. Tests seem to indicate that the HST loads (in all calibers) need at least 800fps to expand, and the standard .45 load is just above that. I've considered switching to the +P loading because of that, but it's barely a 50fps increase for significantly more recoil. Since shot placement is the most critical factor in stopping a threat I decided to stay with the regular loads and faster follow up shots.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by JeeperCreeper » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:58 pm

NT2C wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:50 pm
JeeperCreeper wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:19 pm
NT2C wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:20 pm
JeeperCreeper wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:40 pm

I will say that I am disappointed in the .45ACP out of their short barrels. But then again, I think the .45ACP is not a CCW round as much as a home defense and woods round. Longer barrel (4"-5") with spicy loads (.45 Super and SMC)
I beg to differ. May I call your attention to the 230gr Federal HST results? Smack dead in the middle of the ideal penetration range with full expansion of every round. This is my carry load in my 45 Shield and I have every confidence in it being able to stop a threat if called upon.

That being said, I do tend to switch to my 9mm in the winter when it's easier to carry it concealed, but that's more for the capacity (17+1 vs 6+1) than anything else.
Oh, def those rounds were legit. But many of the other .45 were not. I think the extra velocity of the 9mm makes them more reliable for expansion across the board, even with more crappy ammo.
You'll get no argument from me on the velocity being the main factor in getting proper expansion. Tests seem to indicate that the HST loads (in all calibers) need at least 800fps to expand, and the standard .45 load is just above that. I've considered switching to the +P loading because of that, but it's barely a 50fps increase for significantly more recoil. Since shot placement is the most critical factor in stopping a threat I decided to stay with the regular loads and faster follow up shots.
Agreed. I came to a moderately similar conclusion with a different outcome from the same thought process. I carry 9mm for defense, but if I can have that extra weight of the handgun and barrel length, I go super hot in .45 to ensure that extra velocity and +p recoil won't matter
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by JeeperCreeper » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:59 pm

RickOShea wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:43 pm
LOL. How does the old saying go...."Hopefully your 9mm will expand, but at least the .45 won't shrink." Image




Image
It's only science!!!
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Her secondary offense will be nagging.

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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by RickOShea » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:11 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:59 pm
RickOShea wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:43 pm
LOL. How does the old saying go...."Hopefully your 9mm will expand, but at least the .45 won't shrink." Image




Image
It's only science!!!
I always liked the old Brass Fetcher gel tests, where they threw clothing and bone into the mix. IIRC, the majority of boolitz they tested (9mm and .45) failed to expand in the gel after passing thru the bone plate simulant....and there's a good bit of bone to consider in a COM shot.Image



Image
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by NT2C » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:27 pm

RickOShea wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:11 pm
I always liked the old Brass Fetcher gel tests, where they threw clothing and bone into the mix. IIRC, the majority of boolitz they tested (9mm and .45) failed to expand in the gel after passing thru the bone plate simulant....and there's a good bit of bone to consider in a COM shot.Image
And thus why mass and energy need to be taken into consideration. A 230gr. bowling ball to the sternum is gonna cause major trauma, regardless if it expands or not. I know a retired cop from Richmond, VA who took one to the sternum while wearing his vest and he says he was down for the count, couldn't get a decent breath and had to hope like hell one of the other LEOs took out the shooter, because there was nothing he could have done at that point.
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by chills1994 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:42 pm

according to Clint Smith (of Thunder Ranch fame)...something like 80% of all people shot by handguns survive.

Also, according to him "handguns put bullets into people...rifles put holes through people."
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Re: Firearms Chat 5: #pewpewlife

Post by w3rdtoyamama » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:51 pm

chills1994 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:42 pm
according to Clint Smith (of Thunder Ranch fame)...something like 80% of all people shot by handguns survive.

Also, according to him "handguns put bullets into people...rifles put holes through people."
Well probably because 80% are drivebys and barely hit the leg, let alone a vital organ. Kind of an exaggeration, but whatever :clap:
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