Pistol Carbine for BOB

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Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:12 am

Been lurking for some time but thought I'd like to get opinions on an Idea.

How do you guys feel about a Pistol Carbine in a Bug Out scenario where the only wildlife to be worried about is the 2 legged variety or smaller.
I'm currently looking into a Kriss Vector as an option, what I very much like is the compatibility between the Vector and Glock Magazines
sharing the same ammo and magazines is a big plus. If either the glock or vector has to be discarded I can still retain the ammo and mags.

I also like the logistics of only needing a single ammo supply.

My only sticking point for the moment is the calibre, I personally would much rather have it in 9mm due to carry capacity.
(Per lump of weight 9mm provides more rounds) I'm very much in the placement over power belief.
Also I find the glock 21 too big with a double stack 45 mag, I can shoot it just fine so may just bite the bullet and get them.

One of the reasons why I feel an M4 isnt suitable, is that if I'm in a pitched battle out to 100m and beyond, I've done something stupid.
I'm more than willing to withdraw and lose the battle, than have to patch up holes in myself.

The compactness and weight is also something I'm fond of, but I really would need to try it out to ensure the folding stock isn't springy.

For the moment I have neither the Kriss Vector nor the Glock 21, but I'm proposing them as a combo for a BOB usage.
I've used the Glock, but not the Kriss.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:35 am

If you have the money for a Vector and a Glock, then I guess you should be giving financial advice and not asking firearm advice :awesome:

I have never held a Vector, let alone shot one. I have heard that the engineering is state of the art, though. Definitely worth looking at if you want one. I think the "civilian/compliant/non-sbr" version is kinda silly with its long barrel, but that's just my taste. It kinda takes away the PDW uses of the carbine... but again, if you have that kinda money, just SBR it.

Other options to consider:
-HiPoints with their "single mag simplicity".... ok, ok, kinda half joking. Ugly is as Ugly does
-The Just Right Carbine: uses Glock mags and some AR components. Doesn't have a ridiculous looking long barrel
-The Beretta CX4 Storm carbine: uses Beretta mags in different calibers. Doesn't have a ridiculous looking long barrel
-The KelTec SUB2000: light, folds in half, uses Glock or Beretta or S&W or SIG mags. Doesn't have a ridiculous looking long barrel

Personally, I'd look ino the KelTec if its for a BOB and not a "battle rifle" that everyone seems to need. But good luck on your research, and if you get the Vector, I hope to read a review from you so I can dream of shooting it!!!

P.S. Keep an eye on the SIG Sauer MPX if you're gonna go big on the price tag, might be worth looking into even if it has proprietary mags
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Sworbeyegib » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:45 am

I'm not the biggest fan of pistol caliber carbines for anything other than fun times at the range. The sharing of magazines and caliber is outshined by the performance of a real rifle caliber.

I understand the mindset that most engagements will be too far off to matter, but I'd rather have the capabilities and not need it, than need it and not have it. Turning tail and running may not be an option.

In regards to the Kriss... well it is way too overpriced and overhyped. The recoil mitigation is pretty moot when you are stuck firing on semi-auto. And with a full length barrel, doesn't pack down much smaller than any of carbine with a folding stock. It's just one of those guns with a fanbase from pop culture. Unless I get to play with one with a giggle switch, I'm not really interested.

What are they going for nowadays? $1600-$1800? That's quite a bit of cheddar. Especially for something in a caliber you don't want. If you want an easy to store 9mm carbine, why not go with the classic Sub-2000? It isn't as sexy as the Vector, and not as comfortable to shoot... but it folds in half, can use 9mm Glock magazines, and they only run between $300-$400 bucks.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by zero11010 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:47 am

I like the root of this question very much!

I honestly think that in most BoB situations you would not need a firearm at all. I think that in most of the BoB situations that have occurred within the last 50 years in this country a pistol would have been more than enough. I'm saying this because on an annual basis a steady quantity of people in this country need to leave their home with minimal gear (hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, wild fires). This happens to people in this country every year! How many of those people have made use of a firearm? How many of those people made use of their credit cards?

I think that the increased capabilities of a pistol caliber carbine would be more than enough in most situations.

What do you imagine shooting at where a 9mm round just won't do? People can hunt with a bow and arrow just fine, this makes a 9mm round pretty amazing (if hunting is what you're worried about). People can murder other people with a 9mm round just fine (if that's what you're worried about).


How many separate "what if" statements would be involved in a situation that actually required you to make use of a substantial rifle round for survival? Nope, you don't only want access to 9mm rounds in war with a force that is equipped with modern technology. But, people sure did live with less for tens of thousands of years just fine, and if you go to most warzones in 2014 a 9mm round would be extremely effective as most people in a warzone do not wear body armor of any kind, and most gunfights happen at relatively close range (there are so many different "wars" going on in central america, south america, the middle east, and Africa, and body armor isn't anything that get supplied to most soldiers in these conflicts).


I will say that the Kel-Tec Sub2000 is much more appealing to me as a pistol caliber carbine than the Kriss Vector. I'd rather get the Kel-Tec and spend the left over $1,100 on other supplies. But, if you already have the Kriss and are an awesome shot with it, then keep it and enjoy!

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:15 am

I work in Europe and get paid pretty well, so I'm working to the "buy once, cry once" philosphy :) so cost isnt an overriding factor. Reliability and Suitability are the important credentials.
(Also my costs are considerably higher than the States, Glocks are $1000 :shock: )

I've fired the Keltec... urg... wiggles more than a drunken cyclist :roll: .

I've been looking at the SIG Sauer MPX, but the biggest turn off for me is the AR-15 style controls.
(Not fond of drawing the bolt into my face)

I also live in a country with different freedoms, while an SBR(Pistol or rifle calibre) for us is easy a suppressor is a no-go. (If suppressors were easy it would be a no brainer for the 45).

If I were to go the Kriss route, short and long barrels with stock options are available for no additional admin.

A factor that I hadnt really considered but perhaps should, is Resupply. 5.56 and 9mm are probably a lot more available(post SHTF sense) here than 45 ACP.

On a side note, I love the American expression "Giggle Switch", but I can never really see a practical use for one for me. Training Costs and Skill upkeep costs are too high to justify. I've fired an LSW (Bipoded SA80) in full auto and just thought med :? gimme a scoped bolt action any day.

Regards

Dioxin

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Sworbeyegib » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:08 am

On the list of priorities for a firearm, post shtf/emergency ammo "pick ups" should be near the end of it. The fact is, once any sort of poop hits the fan, the only ammo you can rely on is what you already have before it starts. Some people have the illusion of ammo just laying around for the taking.

I'm a bit unfamiliar with firearm availability, price and legalities out of the US. So I'm not sure what is available, and what options you have. Have you had any trigger time with the Kriss yet? That is a huge factor on whether or not it is the right gun for you.

Are 100+ yard engagements a likely scenario? No, they aren't. But then again, neither is using a firearm at during most emergencies. If things are so bad, that I really feel the need to a carbine, then I want the most capable platform that offers me as many advantages as I can get.

After all, you're not the one that gets to choose the distance at which you will need to defend yourself. And you don't get to choose what the other guys are packing.

Are you looking for a gun that can be fit in a pack, or something that will be either carried or loaded with your gear when you do bug out?
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:18 am

zero11010 wrote:I like the root of this question very much!
*SNIP*
I'd rather get the Kel-Tec and spend the left over $1,100 on other supplies. But, if you already have the Kriss and are an awesome shot with it, then keep it and enjoy!
Quick point on the $1,100, I'm in a position to get the Kriss AND spend the $1,100.

I think your comments are perhaps most inline with what I had in my head.

My thought process behind grabbing a Carbine of any description is the belief that I will better be able to get on target and stay there with a Carbine vs a Pistol, this is more to do with the ergonomics than anything else.

Let play out a few "Ready States" and see if we have the same thinking process.

Equipment:
on Body:
Glock21 Holstered standard belt postion, full mag (13 rounds), empty chamber.
2 more Glock Magazines(2x 13 rounds) on belt
On Back:
Eberlestock Gunslinger 2 backpack
Kriss Vector Long Barrel folding Stock, stowed in rifle compartment. 25 Round Magazine fitted.
4 more 25 round magazines within the pack.

Ready State One:
Equiped as above.
Escalation Draw Glock + Cock
2 Reloads available.

Ready State Two:(To transition chamber round)
As above round chambered.
Escalation Draw Glock, ready to rock. (13 rounds)
2 Reloads available. (26 rounds backup)

Ready State Three:(To transition remove Kriss from Backpack)
Kriss in low ready, chambered.
Escalation Raise Kriss, ready to rock. (25 rounds)
2 Reloads available, + Full Pistol (39 rounds backup)

Ready State Four:(To transition remove backpack and access magazines.
Kriss in high ready, chambered. Bag off back, all magazines at the ready.
Escalation Raise Kriss, ready to rock. (25 rounds)
6 Reloads available, + Full Pistol (139 rounds backup)

What I would like to point out here is the simplicity of the transitions, if I were to use a 5.56 AR RS3 only allows 30 rounds out of my Primary weapon before I switch to pistol, I would need to add a RS3.5 to cover retrieving more than 1 magazine for the AR which would also include changing my magazine carrying methods to include the AR mags.
(I really dont envisage rocking 2-6 AR mags on my immediate body when the AR is in my pack)

Regards
Dioxin

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:59 am

Sworbeyegib wrote:On the list of priorities for a firearm, post shtf/emergency ammo "pick ups" should be near the end of it. The fact is, once any sort of poop hits the fan, the only ammo you can rely on is what you already have before it starts. Some people have the illusion of ammo just laying around for the taking.

Are 100+ yard engagements a likely scenario? No, they aren't. But then again, neither is using a firearm at during most emergencies. If things are so bad, that I really feel the need to a carbine, then I want the most capable platform that offers me as many advantages as I can get.

Are you looking for a gun that can be fit in a pack, or something that will be either carried or loaded with your gear when you do bug out?
Pickups
I live in Switzerland, every town has a 300m range, and each range will have a large amount of GP90 and GP11 as its supplied by the government/military for training purposes (Civvies and Conscripts) there may also be spare weapons that use these calibers.

Engagement range
At ranges 100+ yards I'd want a full size rifle, sure I've used an 12"-16" AR15 out to 100m and enjoyed its balance and pointability, but at the same time I used a 20" heavy matchbarrel and the only position that was worsened was standing unsupported.

What am I looking for
Looking for a sensible approach for self-defence in a world all gone wrong. A pistol is a given, its worth the weight. After that weighing up the options, overlapping the ammo/mags seemed like a strong idea considering I'd be expecting to have to carry it myself.

Examples: guesstimating similar weights
9mm Pistol, couple of spare magazines and 200 spare rounds
45 ACP Pistol, couple of spare magazines, Pistol Carbine 45 acp, 4 loaded magazines, 50 spare rounds
9mm Pistol, couple of spare magazines, 5.56 Semi-Auto + 4 loaded Magazines, no loose ammo.


Maybe I'm just trying to justify a shiny :(

Regards

Dioxin
Last edited by Dioxin on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:22 am

Definitely seems like you've done your homework and have thought about it for a while. I say if you want it and your mind is made up, go for it. If you don't like it, you can always sell or trade it (assuming Switzerland let's you do that kinda stuff)
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by NamelessStain » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:28 am

You talk about weight, well we already have a thread discussing weights for ammo: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=103469

You'll notice 9mm and .223 are close to identical in weight. Jumping up to a .45ACP and keeping the same number of rounds almost doubles your ammo weight over a 9mm/.223 option. Ammo commonality is a double edge sword. If you stock enough you only have to stock 1 caliber, positive. If you are ever forced to trade for more ammo, you can only trade for 1 caliber to use, negative. That's the rub. Also I agree with sworb and rather have a rifle and not need it.

So, I personally would rather a .223/7.62x39 for a rifle 9mm for a pistol for moving to a BOL and have a heavier stuff (.308, .45 ACP, 12g) located at the BOL. There are lots of other factors when moving to your BOL like: How many days on foot is it in case you can't drive? Can you carry enough food/water or will you have to live off the land? Availability of water to refill containers? Climate and temperatures?

In a world gone terribly wrong, revolvers don't have magazines so no need to stock up on them (speed loaders would still be nice), many bolt actions have internal magazines, and there are all kinds of other weapons without detachable magazines. Hell, I'd rather have a single shot breach loading rifle than an AR without a magazine.

The decision is always up to you, I'm just giving you my 2cents. Good luck!

I have some question about Switzerland if you don't mind....
What are the most common calibers in rifles? pistols?
Are their any law restrictions such as magazine capacity?
What does the military use for their small arms?
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Sworbeyegib » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:31 am

Dioxin wrote:
Maybe I'm just trying to justify a shiny :(
You don't ever need to justify a reason for a shiny. :mrgreen:
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by procyon » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:38 am

Sworbeyegib wrote:
Dioxin wrote:
Maybe I'm just trying to justify a shiny :(
You don't ever need to justify a reason for a shiny. :mrgreen:
My wife often disagrees with that viewpoint... :roll:
:lol:
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by NamelessStain » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:43 am

procyon wrote:
Sworbeyegib wrote:
Dioxin wrote:
Maybe I'm just trying to justify a shiny :(
You don't ever need to justify a reason for a shiny. :mrgreen:
My wife often disagrees with that viewpoint... :roll:
:lol:
Just point at the jewelry box :)
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:01 am

NamelessStain wrote: Just point at the jewelry box :)
She would just give me puppy dog eyes and say "But there arent any diamonds in there"
(not married but living together and it still applies.
NamelessStain wrote: I have some question about Switzerland if you don't mind....
What are the most common calibers in rifles? pistols?
Are their any law restrictions such as magazine capacity?
What does the military use for their small arms?
What does the military use for their small arms? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland
Rifle: 5.56 Sturmgewehr 90, aka PE 90, FASS 90 and Sig 550 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550
Pistol: P220 9mm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_P220

Most common calibre in
Pistols: Probably 9mm due to it being military issue.
Rifle: 5.56mm and 7.5 x55 Swiss due to it being military issue (including historical weapons Stgw57 and K31)
Are their any law restrictions such as magazine capacity? none

Please bear in mind I'm a foreigner in Swiss :)

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Sworbeyegib » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:05 am

Knowing how seriously the Swiss take their rifles and marksmanship skills, I certainly don't want to be the guy running a <100yard gun in a country full of some of the most serious riflemen in the world.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:51 am

Sworbeyegib wrote:Knowing how seriously the Swiss take their rifles and marksmanship skills, I certainly don't want to be the guy running a <100yard gun in a country full of some of the most serious riflemen in the world.
I shoot at a Swiss Rifle Range, 300m 4 inch groups on irons is the norm. I'm still working up to that I've some issues getting consistant cheekweld, and possibly sight picture. With optics I'd probably be poking the rounds through the same hole :D (not allowed to use optics tho :cry: )

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Stercutus » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:56 am

Swiss Mountains? I'd rather have just about any rifle other than a PCC. You can hardly go wrong with a PE90 either. It is one heck of a rifle. Nothing wrong with the K31 either.

Look at it this way; would you buy a car that can only go 5KPH under the maximum speed limit or would you rather have one that can go faster even though you only "plan" on going 5KPH under the speed limit everywhere you go? Cause you may be in a situation where you would want to go faster.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:12 am

Stercutus wrote:Swiss Mountains? I'd rather have just about any rifle other than a PCC. You can hardly go wrong with a PE90 either. It is one heck of a rifle. Nothing wrong with the K31 either.

Look at it this way; would you buy a car that can only go 5KPH under the maximum speed limit or would you rather have one that can go faster even though you only "plan" on going 5KPH under the speed limit everywhere you go? Cause you may be in a situation where you would want to go faster.
My BOB wouldnt get me to the mountains, and if I were packing for the mountains I'd be taking my skis!

I'm not sure the Car analogy works well with guns, some people have high performance cars but only the skill to take Granny out for bingo.

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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by woodsghost » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:02 pm

Sworbeyegib wrote:Knowing how seriously the Swiss take their rifles and marksmanship skills, I certainly don't want to be the guy running a <100yard gun in a country full of some of the most serious riflemen in the world.
+1 man.

I have seen pics and movies of different parts of Switzerland. I would choose a rifle there. Even in the urban areas. You can get into >100m engagements in cities. I can take 100+ meter shots outside my apartment. If I was in a swamp or jungle where I could not see more than 15-30m, I would have different views.

Unless you are ambushing someone, you do not get to pick the engagement range. It is nice to think we could dodge and hide and not get in fights beyond 100m, but the reality is, if you are looking at needing a long gun for SHTF, you are looking at situations in which you can't predict or choose the engagement range. If I need a long gun in a SHTF situation, I"ll be dodging and hiding with the best of 'em, but there is no guarantee that will work 100% of the time. Not one thing in life is guaranteed, except death.

I would consider something which uses current military weapon parts or very popular sporting weapon parts. If it breaks, you want to be able to fix it. I carry an AK in the US, so my "use what the locals have" is kinda hypocritical, but I carry spare parts and tools on my rifle and have installed those parts multiple times. So I would invest in spare parts and know how to install them if you get something other than what the locals use. Second point: I have lost parts while cleaning rifles out in the woods. Having spares is not just important because of breakage, but also because of loss.

As was said above, in most situations you can get away with just having a pistol. Incidentally, I personally know some people who went through natural disasters in the US. One family during one disaster in particular, experienced looters tromping through the wreckage of their home on multiple occasions over the next several weeks. We can question how often we actually need firearms in a bad situation. My answer is there are situations in which people NEEDED firearms and did not have them. Granted, the people I"m talking about likely would not have used a firearm due to personal beliefs. *I* would have used a firearm in those situations. [and one could respond with "but it's just stuff,' and you would be right to say that. However, one does not know looters are after "just stuff" till after the situation is over]

As was mentioned above, 5.56 (or 5.45x39, for that matter) weighs about the same as 9x19.

A big chunk of the issue here seems to be Ready States and not wanting to run rifle mags on your person. Consider these as an option:

Image

Image

Image

Image


If you mount one mag to the weapon and run two mags side by side, you get 90 rounds (obviously, less with 20 rounders, more with 40 rounders) ready to go when you draw your rifle. Without any mags attached to your person.

Now, if what you want is a shiny, then by all means, GET THE SHINY! Have fun with it! Enjoy life. Odds are, you will not need to bug out in some zombie infested world. If you DO have to, a Vector and Glock will be better than pointy sticks, which is where you are right now. As someone else said some other place, this is about being better prepared. We can never be perfectly prepared.
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:43 pm

zero11010 wrote: What do you imagine shooting at where a 9mm round just won't do?
People more than 50-100m away, people wearing any type or armor, people behind most any type of barrier, and there's the issue of effective velocity windows, or, at what ranges does your 9mm load from a carbine barrel perform well and at what ranges does it turn back into a ballistically "meh" FMJ?

OP: given location, I would absolutely want a 300m gun. In fact, if ym engagement envelope was beyond 25m, I would want a 300m gun. Inside a structure, okay, a 3-5" barrel PCC certainly has it's merits. MP5K, IMO, wins many scenarios because even with a can on it it's about the same length as my KSG, and yet it's quiet. Like all of the quiets.

Image

Blurry-ass picture. Whatever. You get the point. Yeah, the .300blk could be running a shorter can and a slightly shorter barrel, but so could the 9mm. Point being, the intersection of short+quiet goes to the PCC SBR.

For everything else, switch up to a rifle caliber. Why are MP5s being phased out? Because they begin to suck when you're shooting, say, across a ship's deck. They're also expensive to maintain, etc.
Equipment:
on Body:
Glock21 Holstered standard belt postion, full mag (13 rounds), empty chamber.
2 more Glock Magazines(2x 13 rounds) on belt
On Back:
Eberlestock Gunslinger 2 backpack
Kriss Vector Long Barrel folding Stock, stowed in rifle compartment. 25 Round Magazine fitted.
4 more 25 round magazines within the pack.
I have a GSII. No need for a folding stock. I can run it with a full-sized 18" AR with a rifle-length stock with the "cap" on, or a collapsible-stock AR without the "cap" on. Also, round in the chamber. If you had time to chamber a round, you had time to do something other than draw a pistol.
Ready State One:
Equiped as above.
Escalation Draw Glock + Cock
2 Reloads available.

Ready State Two:(To transition chamber round)
As above round chambered.
Escalation Draw Glock, ready to rock. (13 rounds)
2 Reloads available. (26 rounds backup)

Ready State Three:(To transition remove Kriss from Backpack)
Kriss in low ready, chambered.
Escalation Raise Kriss, ready to rock. (25 rounds)
2 Reloads available, + Full Pistol (39 rounds backup)

Ready State Four:(To transition remove backpack and access magazines.
Kriss in high ready, chambered. Bag off back, all magazines at the ready.
Escalation Raise Kriss, ready to rock. (25 rounds)
6 Reloads available, + Full Pistol (139 rounds backup)

What I would like to point out here is the simplicity of the transitions, if I were to use a 5.56 AR RS3 only allows 30 rounds out of my Primary weapon before I switch to pistol, I would need to add a RS3.5 to cover retrieving more than 1 magazine for the AR which would also include changing my magazine carrying methods to include the AR mags.
(I really dont envisage rocking 2-6 AR mags on my immediate body when the AR is in my pack)
Keep one in the rifle and an AR gives you 30 on tap with no reload. If it's so bad that you'll need to fight with your pack off, or reload the pistol, or draw the rifle, it's bad enough to be rocking arm or and a full battle-rattle, which means rifle mags on your body, not in your pack.

I understand the appeal of logistical simplicity, but a dose of reality is going to introduce a lot of friction and turn that apparent simplicity into a logistical nightmare.

Not on to the KRISS. I have one, short barrel, folding stock. Meh. It's a fun toy, and running Glock mag is great, but I'd take this ragged-ass MP5 wannabe any day, or if I had a chance, an AR platform. One of them has a half-century of T&E, the other has starred in a few movies.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
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clarence
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by clarence » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:48 pm

I went with the 9mm Beretta CX4/PX4 pair and Eberlestock Cherry Bomb (if SBR, Secret Weapon if do not), myself, as I assume indoor use as likely as outdoors (short ZPAW).

I can see the (less likely) need for something with greater range though, and so am now looking at a second longarm.

If you can find them and ammo available, you might like the FN PS90/FiveseveN pair: reliable, compact (BOB concealable), lightweight, share very lightweight ammo, great carrying capacity, more capable than 9mm at a a distance.

But Switzerland being Switzerland, maybe open carry is a possibility? If so, go with what the locals use.

As an aside, I imagine I'd rather run rifle mags on my person than add weight to and throw off the balance of my rifle.
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woodsghost
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by woodsghost » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:46 pm

For the sake of options, have you considered getting a pistol and putting it in a rifle stock?



My view is you really need a rifle, but hey, everyone needs options. One possibility is getting a pistol, a stock, and then taking some more time to think about whether you need a rifle or not while improving your hit capability.

If you decide to go this route, really look at the different options and read reviews. The video maker above experienced reliability issues with all the stocks he tested, but found some to be more reliable than others. Other users might have different experiences, and there might be fixes. So please be sure to do some homework.

Good luck!
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Gingerbread Man
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Gingerbread Man » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:15 pm

How about a Daisy Red Rider in 44 magnum?
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Dioxin
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Re: Pistol Carbine for BOB

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:47 pm

clarence wrote: If you can find them and ammo available, you might like the FN PS90/FiveseveN pair: reliable, compact (BOB concealable), lightweight, share very lightweight ammo, great carrying capacity, more capable than 9mm at a a distance.

But Switzerland being Switzerland, maybe open carry is a possibility? If so, go with what the locals use.
Switzerland is far from Free regards Gun Laws, Open carry is prohibited and concealed carry is NY style may issue. (i.e your life needs to be documented underthreat or you are on Close Protection Detail, I'm neither)

Getting 5.7 ammo after the proverbial has hit the fan would be like looking for pixie dust, so that means you are limited to what you can carry, which can be easily classified as "not enough"

"to everyone else"
I've read a lot of your comments, I can honestly say that engagements beyond 75m, probably even 50m are not a reality for me. If I wished to travel 40 km in any direction from where I reside I can get there without exposing myself to 100m+ killing fields. Only time I'm expecting to be shooting that far, is for food. And there aint nowhere to hunt nearby. Any moving food sources closer than that would allow me to get within knife distance(domesticated farm animals).

The 2 legged predators I would place in 2 categories, trained and untrained. I would like to place myself in the "trained" category. Therefore my real threats are full-time military types and large groups, those with the same level of training as myself would be a 50/50 crapshoot. Against full-time military I'm a dead man, against large groups a pitched battle will have me dead. I intend to pick my battles and keep them close, I feel my survivability is higher this way, irrespective of my equipment.

Perhaps the only doomsday scenario I can depicted with necessitating an Assault Rifle or greater would be "Occupied Resistance" in this scenario I'm going to opt for a silenced rifle in a minimum of 308 and being a damn long distance from the target. I've had a good life I don't need 40 virgins in the afterlife.

In my preparation I'm trying to cater for different response times. From when I hear the alarm/call/SHTF, how long do I have to prepare.

My First category is 15 minutes:
Here I have 15 minutes starting from my home address, to get out the door on my way to some predetermined destination.
I envisage grabbing the pack by the door, filling a water container, jacket, boots, better clothing, and then out the door.

My second category is 3 hours:
Now I have 3 hours to be out the door, I now have more time to consider my options and adjust my packing based on needs and situation.
I also consider this category being compatible with starting my exit strategy from work.(I can be home in 15 minutes by foot, walking).

My Third Category is 3 days:
I may have considerably longer to prepare, but I may have bugging in concerns about water supply and food supply. My BOB may be stashed
with 4-5 days of food but using that when I have standard house foods available would be insane. I may also need to consider some sort of Home Defense
strategy in case others are less well prepared.

My final Category is worst case scenario, 3 minutes:
Here I expect to have to survive off whatever I'm wearing and carrying as part of my daily routine, I dont think its reasonable to expect to be home
for this category. I would also lump a 15 minute warning from my work address to also be in this category.

Regards

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