Riots in St Louis?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Richter » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:18 am

Valarius wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:NATIONAL GUARD ARE BEING DEPLOYED! I FUCKING REPEAT, NATIONAL GUARD IS BEING DEPLOYED
Source?
It's literally everywhere. CNN, MSNBC, etc

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by KGBrick » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:21 am

In my uneducated opinion calling in the national guard, regrettable as the necessity may be, is the right action at this point. Simultaneous looting at multiple locations, random (?) shootings, arson, police being stretched just trying to implement damage control all point towards a need for serious manpower. Not escalation of force, but manpower. Put so many people on the ground that the rioting can't happen out of sight of people who can stop it.

I'm all for peaceful protests but at this point the peaceful protesters can't exercise their rights due to the rioters that are using them for cover.

Link to first twitter post I saw with the signed order from the governor:
https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/ ... 24/photo/1

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Valarius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:27 am

An interesting development. I wonder at the timing.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:28 am

Valarius wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:NATIONAL GUARD ARE BEING DEPLOYED! I FUCKING REPEAT, NATIONAL GUARD IS BEING DEPLOYED
Source?
Jay Nixon's office?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/missouri-gover ... d=25017936

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Valarius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:36 am

Thanks for the link.
See you around, HK. And remember folks: victory is surviving to watch another sunrise.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Neptune Glory » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:37 am

I'm glad the National Guard is being deployed, honestly. The police -- local, county and state -- so far have tried a variety of tactics to get things under control, and nothing is working.
Civil disorder, also known as civil unrest or civil strife, is a broad term that is typically used by law enforcement to describe one or more forms of unrest caused by a group of people. Civil disturbance is typically a symptom of, and a form of protest against, major socio-political problems; the severity of the action coincides with public expression(s) of displeasure. Examples of civil disorder include, but are not necessarily limited to: illegal parades; sit-ins and other forms of obstructions; riots; sabotage; and other forms of crime. It is intended to be a demonstration to the public and the government, but can escalate into general chaos.
I've talked with a number of my co-workers, white and black, about the situation in St. Louis city and county... it's been imbalanced, in terms of the frequency and duration of police harassment against whites and against blacks, for decades now. My friends and co-workers all report being pulled over / stopped much more frequently if they are black -- and these are good people who work in hospitals for a living.

The term "powder keg" was the correct term to use. It's going off now and I'm not sure what can be done about it.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Neptune Glory » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:44 am

Kilo147 wrote:DoJ will conduct a second autopsy. Thank fucking God.
Third, actually:
The autopsy was performed Sunday at the request of Brown’s family.

Attorney General Eric Holder ordered a federal medical examiner to perform a separate autopsy due to the circumstances surrounding the situation.

The St. Louis County Medical Examiner's office already conducted an autopsy.
I guess nobody's taking any chances at something being missed?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by KGBrick » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:52 am

Neptune Glory wrote:I guess nobody's taking any chances at something being missed?
-Neptune
Were I the DoJ I would also be interested in an autopsy from a source not in the pay of and not working closely with any of the involved parties.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Neptune Glory » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:07 am

KGBrick wrote:
Neptune Glory wrote:I guess nobody's taking any chances at something being missed?
-Neptune
Were I the DoJ I would also be interested in an autopsy from a source not in the pay of and not working closely with any of the involved parties.
Fair enough.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:39 am

Kilo147 wrote:There's no such thing as Ferguson Police. It's the County. St Louis County, at that. And nobody got close enough to it for me to tell. Considering that the only guys dressing up like soldiers are St Louis County, and all their tactical gear was free with 9/11 dollars, I'd assume so.
:?

I am not even sure what all that means but we can agree they don't have an MRAP or LRAD? Maybe the state police do but they have a whole different mission and resourcing level.
Neptune Glory wrote:
I've talked with a number of my co-workers, white and black, about the situation in St. Louis city and county... it's been imbalanced, in terms of the frequency and duration of police harassment against whites and against blacks, for decades now. My friends and co-workers all report being pulled over / stopped much more frequently if they are black -- and these are good people who work in hospitals for a living.

The term "powder keg" was the correct term to use. It's going off now and I'm not sure what can be done about it.
-Neptune
Apologies to the St. Louis contingent but STLO is a real shit hole of crime all the time. It barely lags behind Detroit in violent crime making it the second most violent city in America. It is a powder keg whether racism perceived or real may plays a role in it or not.

It seems obvious to me that a lot, if not all of the looting is taking place by opportunists (much like the baggy pants wearing, hat cocked to side, tattoo having Brown; who was a thug) who see the police overwhelmed and see things they want to steal and no one big enough to stop them. The real lesson here for me is not so much about racism or police behaving improperly; because even if they are I can not do a thing to change that. The real lesson is how certain people will behave when the police are no longer effective.

At least some of this looting was well organized, some of the looters were armed and ready and they have been able to sustain momentum for over a week. The violence and looting is actually getting worse. That is noteworthy.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:49 am

The looting has gotten worse because every time the police to put a stop to it they are criticized by the media, the governor, and the freaking POTUS. You better believe they are going to be less than excited about risking their lives when the media circus going on.

I bet they are laughing their asses off fromthe complaints about the mean old militarized cops now. Let's see how militarized the Guard will be. You see, there is a reason you wear riot gear to a riot.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Mikeyboy » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:08 am

Neptune Glory wrote:I'm glad the National Guard is being deployed, honestly. The police -- local, county and state -- so far have tried a variety of tactics to get things under control, and nothing is working.
Civil disorder, also known as civil unrest or civil strife, is a broad term that is typically used by law enforcement to describe one or more forms of unrest caused by a group of people. Civil disturbance is typically a symptom of, and a form of protest against, major socio-political problems; the severity of the action coincides with public expression(s) of displeasure. Examples of civil disorder include, but are not necessarily limited to: illegal parades; sit-ins and other forms of obstructions; riots; sabotage; and other forms of crime. It is intended to be a demonstration to the public and the government, but can escalate into general chaos.
I've talked with a number of my co-workers, white and black, about the situation in St. Louis city and county... it's been imbalanced, in terms of the frequency and duration of police harassment against whites and against blacks, for decades now. My friends and co-workers all report being pulled over / stopped much more frequently if they are black -- and these are good people who work in hospitals for a living.

The term "powder keg" was the correct term to use. It's going off now and I'm not sure what can be done about it.
-Neptune

I see both sides in this whole mess.

Are there some cops who single out certain races or anyone they deem potential criminal and basically do a "stop and frisk" on some trumped up BS violation? Definitely.

That said there is also a line that seems to be crossed regularly with some urban youth....hitting cops. With the exception of a cop hitting my wife or kids during a traffic stop, I don't think I would ever take a swing at a cop. Even if I am stopped for some BS reason, and the cop was a real ass I would be mad, but I would never take a swing at him/her. Brown was stopped for JAYWALKING and sure there was the possibility in his mind that he was going to get picked up for shoplifting a bunch of cheap cigars he stole from a liquor store earlier, but that is all petty stuff. Assaulting an officer usually is a felony. This Brown guy was 6' 4" and almost 300lb, so he thought he could man handle this cop and get away with it. He thought wrong. A community who thinks its OK to beat on an officer to avoid an arrest is also thinking wrong.

Don't get me wrong, killing someone should be a last resort for law enforcement. If the cop was bigger, and had backup this shooting should have never happened. That said once you lay your hands on a cop, and especially go for their weapon you are assuming the risk of getting shot, just in the same was as trying to run a cop over with a car. Unless evidence comes out that the cop shot this guy from a distance, I'm going to assume that the cop was being pummeled by this big guy and he fired in self defense.

Bigger picture in terms of SHTF and overall prepping, just like Trayvon Martin there is a possibility of this creating more racial violence. MO will be a powder keg, and there has been protest in other cities, even here in Philly. There is always that possibility of simple racial attacks, protest/police actions, to outright riots in multiple cities when things like this happen. Just keep an eye out, and I hope those in Missouri stay safe.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Langenator » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:19 am

KGBrick wrote:
Neptune Glory wrote:I guess nobody's taking any chances at something being missed?
-Neptune
Were I the DoJ I would also be interested in an autopsy from a source not in the pay of and not working closely with any of the involved parties.
Although, given Holder's track record, I wouldn't trust any ME who works for him to autopsy a 120 year old man who died in his sleep without fitting it to some kind of political agenda.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by airballrad » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:31 am

Another gentle reminder that the forum rules still apply in this thread. Political commentary, trolling, and flaming are still verboten.

If you don't have new information to impart, maybe you need to consider the value of your (non-specific You) post to the thread.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by KGBrick » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:35 am

How about we move in the direction of 'lessons learned' instead of politics & debating things we don't have much information about?

On the civilian take-away, I see at least two things so far.

1) Soft (concealable) body armor at an emotionally charged protest is A Good Idea and for me mandatory. If I care enough to protest something like that or to record a protest like that, I can eat the few hundred bucks it takes to cover my innards. Why? At least one person has been shot by another post-curfew 'protester.' Tim Pool, a VICE reporter, had bullets pass close enough by him for the buzz to be audible.

2) If I have a property I care about at or near the scene of an emotionally charged protest, I'd better be there with some friends to protect it. Police half a block away will likely have their hands tied about preventing arson and looting. It doesn't matter how well-thought-of I or my property is by the community; there will be enough rioters to overcome the good will of any protesters. Good building security also doesn't prevent some arsonist from just setting the place on fire.

That's what is on top of my mind at the moment. LEO lessons learned are another list and not something I'm focusing on too much at the moment. Anyone else want to add something?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by raptor » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:52 am

BTW the preliminary autopsy report was published. Brown was shot from the front 6 times. 4 times in the right arm and twice in the head. One of the head shots was fatal. The report does not definitively address the distance of the shooting. If you look at the diagram you will see the one round that produced 5 wounds was the shot that hit his eye with a downward trajectory (based upon the diagram of a standing person).
Dr. Baden provided a diagram of the entry wounds, and noted that the six shots produced numerous wounds. Some of the bullets entered and exited several times, including one that left at least five different wounds.

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting.

“We need more information; for example, the police should be examining the automobile to see if there is gunshot residue in the police car,” he said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/mi ... ef=us&_r=0


Obviously this additional partial information will not make people happy.


Edited to add:

My partial information comment is directed towards the fact that people are looking for instant and definite answers (ala TV) and in matters such as these you have a choice of fast and incomplete information or slow and more complete information.
Last edited by raptor on Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by NamelessStain » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:06 am

raptor wrote: Obviously this additional partial information will not make people happy.
It never does if it doesn't fit their narrative.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by KGBrick » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:07 am

Ack! My soapbox vanished! :shock:
raptor wrote:BTW the preliminary autopsy report was published. Brown was shot from the front 6 times. 4 times in the right arm and twice in the head. One of the head shots was fatal. The report does not definitively address the distance of the shooting. If you look at the diagram you will see the one round that produced 5 wounds was the shot that hit his eye with a downward trajectory (based upon the diagram of a standing person).
Dr. Baden provided a diagram of the entry wounds, and noted that the six shots produced numerous wounds. Some of the bullets entered and exited several times, including one that left at least five different wounds.

“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

He stressed that his information does not assign blame or justify the shooting.

“We need more information; for example, the police should be examining the automobile to see if there is gunshot residue in the police car,” he said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/mi ... ef=us&_r=0


Obviously this additional partial information will not make people happy.
I don't think there is anything the government could reasonably do that would ease tempers in this situation. Hanging the officer out to dry isn't reasonable. Reporting this to be a justifiable homicide/not prosecuting the officer certainly won't cool tempers. Even if that turns out to be true, a portion of the people involved in the protesting and (maybe) a majority involved in the rioting won't trust a government source unless it says something they like.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Anianna » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:39 am

It doesn't help that the family's lawyer refuses to accept the head wound could mean he was head down barreling toward the cop and insists he had surrendered despite Dr. Baden's statements that it proves neither.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:55 am

Anianna wrote:It doesn't help that the family's lawyer refuses to accept the head wound could mean he was head down barreling toward the cop and insists he had surrendered despite Dr. Baden's statements that it proves neither.
Well that is pretty much his job. He's a lawyer.

Refute and deny evidence to the narrative he's pushing.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by sheddi » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:14 pm

Amnesty International have deployed a human rights team to Ferguson, supposedly their first deployment of this kind within the US:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/am ... gu#3i7w4gs
WASHINGTON — Amnesty International has taken “unprecedented” action to deal with the situation in Ferguson, Missouri, by sending resources the human rights group has never before deployed inside the United States.

The organization has been on the ground in Ferguson since Thursday. It sent a 13-person human rights delegation to the city in the wake of the Aug. 9 police shooting death of Michael Brown.

Jasmine Heiss, a senior campaigner with Amnesty and part of the team in Ferguson, said the use of the “cross-functional team” — which she said included community trainers, researchers, and human rights observers — was “unprecedented” within the U.S. for the group.

On Saturday, after Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon declared a state of emergency and put a curfew in place in Ferguson, Amnesty International USA’s executive director, Steven W. Hawkins, issued a scathing statement.

“We criticize dictators for quelling dissent and silencing protestors with tactics like curfews, we’ll certainly speak out when it’s happening in our own backyard,” he said. “The people of Ferguson have the right to protest peacefully the lack of accountability for Michael Brown’s shooting.”
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by crypto » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:19 pm

Check the reddit feed. The Governor signed the EO last night, twitter is full of pictures of humvees rolling up there.

humvees rolling from the assembly area: https://twitter.com/ksdknews/statuses/5 ... 9739677696
humvees at the assembly area: https://twitter.com/FOX2now/statuses/501376684382109696

Link to EO: https://t.co/EXtK5K6T5K

80 troops, the ROE will be strict, and they're just protecting the command post, to free more policemen to be on the street.

With respect to the video of the cop threatening to shoot the media, I watched it last night, it happened.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by crypto » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:25 pm

As a side note, the last 2 nights, part of the protest is against the curfew itself, which is a pretty clear infringement of 2 enumerated 1A rights only permitted because of the State of Emergency.

In my personal opinion it is regrettably necessary, but it puts me in direct contradiction to myself with regards to my stance on certain /other/ enumerated rights being compromised during emergencies. And we probably can't talk about that here without getting in trouble, so choose your words carefully if you want to. ;)
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by crypto » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:27 pm

regarding the autopsy report, it cuts both ways: It shows pretty clearly that Brown was not shot in the back as per some eyewitness accounts, but it also shows no evidence of any sort of struggle or fight.
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