Riots in St Louis?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by williaty » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:10 pm

Stercutus wrote:Yeah, make sure you make a life changing/ ending decision in that time frame and be right or else.
That's the risk every single person who carries a gun in a civilized society faces. Doesn't matter if you're a cop of a civilian like me carrying in public places. Make a decision in an instant and be right or face the wrath of twelve of your peers.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:12 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:It's funny. This would all be a non issue if the fucking cops had bought dash cams instead of MRAPS and LRADS.
They did buy cameras, they just had not installed them yet. Cameras lie sometimes anyway or don't tell the whole story in any case. Still it would have been better to have them. Also, the police in Ferguson do not have an MRAP or LRAD nor could they buy one if they wanted to.

They have LRADS. As in multiple. They brought them out in force tonight. And they have a MRAP or something similar bought with antiterrorism dollars after 9/11

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:17 pm

Kilo147 wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:It's funny. This would all be a non issue if the fucking cops had bought dash cams instead of MRAPS and LRADS.
They did buy cameras, they just had not installed them yet. Cameras lie sometimes anyway or don't tell the whole story in any case. Still it would have been better to have them. Also, the police in Ferguson do not have an MRAP or LRAD nor could they buy one if they wanted to.

They have LRADS. As in multiple. They brought them out in force tonight. And they have a MRAP or something similar bought with antiterrorism dollars after 9/11
Does it say "Ferguson Police" on the side of it?
williaty wrote:
Stercutus wrote:Yeah, make sure you make a life changing/ ending decision in that time frame and be right or else.
That's the risk every single person who carries a gun in a civilized society faces. Doesn't matter if you're a cop of a civilian like me carrying in public places. Make a decision in an instant and be right or face the wrath of twelve of your peers.
Sure but guess who generally gets more margin for error? It is not the guy who is supposed to be trained well and could possibly encounter violence with every new person he meets.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:18 pm

williaty wrote:
W.R.T. the surprise that it might be illegal to get in the way of a robber, the legal reasoning behind those laws is this: People are more valuable than stuff. The defense of stuff is never a justification to take action that makes it more likely that a person, including yourself may come to harm or may be killed. In context, getting in the way of the robber makes it more likely that the robbery will escalate to a lethal force situation. In other words, the law says that defending your TV does not justify the increased risk of the neighbor kid acting as a bullet backstop when the robber tries to shoot you because you tried to prevent him from leaving.

All of us, I'm sure, can come up with situations in which we're justified in taking action to prevent a criminal from stealing from us. However, the law has to play the averages and that means that stuff is always less valuable than people in the eyes of the law.
In Texas we still believe you have the right to protect your property from the bad guys. We wouldn't have it any other way.

TEXAS PENAL. CODE ANN. § 9.42 : Texas Statutes - Section 9.42: DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
My opinion...60% of the time, it's right every time!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:19 pm

There's no such thing as Ferguson Police. It's the County. St Louis County, at that. And nobody got close enough to it for me to tell. Considering that the only guys dressing up like soldiers are St Louis County, and all their tactical gear was free with 9/11 dollars, I'd assume so.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:21 pm

Kilo147 wrote:They have LRADS. As in multiple. They brought them out in force tonight. And they have a MRAP or something similar bought with antiterrorism dollars after 9/11
That's the Missouri Highway Patrol out there tonight. Least according to CNN and NBC, I couldn't see their patches due to the smoke and tear gas haze.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:23 pm

Kilo147 wrote:
airmandan wrote:Sounds like things are getting crazy tonight. Good luck down there folks. Be safe.

Shots fired and security guard being attacked in store.
, local news just had a cop threaten to execute them.
I don't believe this for one minute. They may have threatened to OC them because they were in a restricted area but I can't fathom a cop would be so stupid and threaten to execute a news crew.

The autopsy report is interesting but incomplete. This was released by a private expert and he didn't have access to the forensics on the scene. I would be interested in seeing if there is any gunpowder residue to Brown's clothes that show he was in the car at the time the weapon was fired. The so-called witnesses have already been shown to be lying since they swore up and down that Brown was shot in the back. Since their credibility is shot, do you really believe anything they say about the event?
Last edited by RepoMan73 on Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:26 pm

RepoMan73 wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:
airmandan wrote:Sounds like things are getting crazy tonight. Good luck down there folks. Be safe.

Shots fired and security guard being attacked in store.
, local news just had a cop threaten to execute them.
I don't believe this for one minute.
Well. Too. Fucking. Bad. They recorded it.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DarkAxel » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:28 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:It's funny. This would all be a non issue if the fucking cops had bought dash cams instead of MRAPS and LRADS.
They did buy cameras, they just had not installed them yet. Cameras lie sometimes anyway or don't tell the whole story in any case. Still it would have been better to have them. Also, the police in Ferguson do not have an MRAP or LRAD nor could they buy one if they wanted to.

They have LRADS. As in multiple. They brought them out in force tonight. And they have a MRAP or something similar bought with antiterrorism dollars after 9/11
Does it say "Ferguson Police" on the side of it?
According to this link, The Ferguson PD has Lenco BearCats:

Image

ETA: There may have been MRAPS and LRADS there, too, as other LEAs in the area deployed to help the locals.
Last edited by DarkAxel on Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:30 pm

Kilo147 wrote:
RepoMan73 wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:
airmandan wrote:Sounds like things are getting crazy tonight. Good luck down there folks. Be safe.

Shots fired and security guard being attacked in store.
, local news just had a cop threaten to execute them.
I don't believe this for one minute.
Well. Too. Fucking. Bad. They recorded it.
Link to the video?
My opinion...60% of the time, it's right every time!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:33 pm

There is no video yet. The guy that it happened to is still broadcasting. It'll be timcast, for Vice. You can't upload and record at the same time on simple devices.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:36 pm

Kilo147 wrote:There is no video yet. The guy that it happened to is still broadcasting. It'll be timcast, for Vice. You can't upload and record at the same time on simple devices.
So was it live/streaming and you saw it? Or did he relate the story to another news agency telling what happened or what?
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:37 pm

Kilo147 wrote:There is no video yet. The guy that it happened to is still broadcasting. It'll be timcast, for Vice. You can't upload and record at the same time on simple devices.
I went over the video and watched a little bit of the live feed. There are some real Mensa candidates out there tonight.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:39 pm

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=yout ... azYgZ0P1KY

To a journalist. With a camera. With 45,000 people watching. I suppose that's why the stream was offline for about five minutes.

"get the fuck out of here or you're getting shot with this "

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by yossarian » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:47 pm

Kilo147 wrote:http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=yout ... azYgZ0P1KY

To a journalist. With a camera. With 45,000 people watching. I suppose that's why the stream was offline for about five minutes.

"get the fuck out of here or you're getting shot with this "
I can't see any weapon clearly in that video or even tell which cop is yelling. Again, there is no clear indication that the cop threatened "lethal" force, or as you put it "execution". These assholes can't even tell the difference between earplugs and LTL projectiles.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:48 pm

yossarian wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=yout ... azYgZ0P1KY

To a journalist. With a camera. With 45,000 people watching. I suppose that's why the stream was offline for about five minutes.

"get the fuck out of here or you're getting shot with this "
I can't see any weapon clearly in that video or even tell which cop is yelling. Again, there is no clear indication that the cop threatened "lethal" force, or as you put it "execution". These assholes can't even tell the difference between earplugs and LTL projectiles.
So because one journalist is a complete idiot, all of them are?


Edit: If it were CNN, I'd give you that. I mean good God, Wolf Blitzer is a complete fuckwit.
Last edited by Kilo147 on Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DarkAxel » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:49 pm

ZombieGranny wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:It was shoplifting, with the store employee blocking his path, an action that is nothing short of escalation, and illegal in many states.
It is illegal to try to stop someone from stealing from you?

As was explained to me by a serious-looking lawyer while I was being trained to keep Amazon.com's warehouse stock from walking off, this really depends.

In short, unless you witness someone commit a felony offense or you are a LEO, you cannot detain them or prevent them from leaving the scene of a crime. In some jurisdictions they call it Unlawful Imprisonment, and other places go with a much milder sounding Unlawful Detention. You may, however, attempt to seize what is being stolen, and if you are threatened or attacked while doing so you may defend yourself and detain the thief (assault being a felony).
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:51 pm

Kilo147 wrote:http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=yout ... azYgZ0P1KY

To a journalist. With a camera. With 45,000 people watching. I suppose that's why the stream was offline for about five minutes.

"get the fuck out of here or you're getting shot with this "
Shot with what? Doubt he would used that terminology if it was his firearm. It was probably a bean bag shotgun or some similar less lethal weapon. That's hardly a threatened execution.

A camera doesn't allow you to ignore lawful orders to disperse.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:54 pm

Kilo147 wrote: So because one journalist is a complete idiot, all of them are?

Well the media has no problem lumping all the police together so if it's good for the goose...
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by yossarian » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:56 pm

Kilo147 wrote:
yossarian wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=yout ... azYgZ0P1KY

To a journalist. With a camera. With 45,000 people watching. I suppose that's why the stream was offline for about five minutes.

"get the fuck out of here or you're getting shot with this "
I can't see any weapon clearly in that video or even tell which cop is yelling. Again, there is no clear indication that the cop threatened "lethal" force, or as you put it "execution". These assholes can't even tell the difference between earplugs and LTL projectiles.
So because one journalist is a complete idiot, all of them are?


Edit: If it were CNN, I'd give you that. I mean good God, Wolf Blitzer is a complete fuckwit.

Do you remember the Iraqi woman several years ago that was holding the "bullets" that hit her house? Yes, all journalists are idiots until they prove otherwise. Especially in regards to firearms, education, mental health, international affairs and ....well, everything else.

You still haven't pointed out the lethal weapon in that video though.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by duodecima » Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:08 am

RepoMan73 wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=yout ... azYgZ0P1KY

To a journalist. With a camera. With 45,000 people watching. I suppose that's why the stream was offline for about five minutes.

"get the fuck out of here or you're getting shot with this "
Shot with what? Doubt he would used that terminology if it was his firearm. It was probably a bean bag shotgun or some similar less lethal weapon. That's hardly a threatened execution.

A camera doesn't allow you to ignore lawful orders to disperse.
I hear "Get that light off!" as part of what's yelled, may have been about not lighting up the police position or about shining a light in somebody's face. Would need to see the video leading up to that moment.

Not sure threatening to shoot a journalist, even one who may just have fucked up a bit, with a non-lethal weapon, is any more justifiable tho. After this week, I think we've brushed up on uses of lethal force - how about uses of non-lethal? (It's a serious question - at what point does information about what will happen if you disobey an order cross over into possibly illegal threats of force? I'm thinking it probably has to do with the lawfulness of the order and the action, but ianal.)

And yes, I am absolutely sure these police are stressed as hell, overworked and completely exhausted so their patience with anybody is probably gone. But reasons =/= excuses.
RepoMan73 wrote:
Kilo147 wrote: So because one journalist is a complete idiot, all of them are?

Well the media has no problem lumping all the police together so if it's good for the goose...
Because two wrongs makes a ... oh wait...
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:59 am

NATIONAL GUARD ARE BEING DEPLOYED! I FUCKING REPEAT, NATIONAL GUARD IS BEING DEPLOYED

Finally, a less militarized force is coming in.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Valarius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:15 am

https://twitter.com/RobertKlemko/status ... 7543907328

This is the twitter feed of Robert Klemko, a reporter for Sports Illustrated on-scene in Ferguson. He claims to have been placed under arrest for two minutes before released by the captain.

I've had retired police officers and active criminal attorneys say the same thing to me: the second an officer restricts your movement, you consider yourself under arrest and you ask for a lawyer. Advising you of your Miranda rights does not give you any legal protection; you have to ask for a lawyer and actively state that you are using your Fifth Amendment rights in order for those rights to be considered under effect. Even then, police are allowed to continue to question you, lie to you, and use other normal policing methods.
Last edited by Valarius on Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Valarius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:16 am

Kilo147 wrote:NATIONAL GUARD ARE BEING DEPLOYED! I FUCKING REPEAT, NATIONAL GUARD IS BEING DEPLOYED
Source?
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