Riots in St Louis?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Woods Walker » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:58 am

DarkAxel wrote: As an aside, I can't help but wonder if this "Us v Them" mentality is making things much worse than they should be.
That depends on what a person's definition of Us or Them is. To me "Us" equals tolerance, freedom and civilized behavior. Them equals intolerance, totalitarianism and barbarous force. Other people may have different views. To each their own.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by sheddi » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:56 am

Phoenix David wrote:
raptor wrote: Look at the hat on his head in the photo above, the white shirt, dark shorts and shoes. Then look at the the video of Brown lying in the street. (caution graphic content).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjrBm1ehTpk
Did they use the Zapruder camera to film that?
It looks to me as though that YouTube video is a low-quality recording of someone else's streaming video; at times during the playback you can see the camera wobble to show the scroll bars at the side of the playback window.

I imagine that, somewhere, there's a much higher quality version of the same footage.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by sheddi » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:21 am

Rob Crilly, journalist for The Telegraph, usually covers Afghanistan but is currently in Ferguson. His Twitter feed is interesting.
https://twitter.com/robcrilly

I particularly liked this one:
https://twitter.com/robcrilly/status/500885062087225344
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Guardian photojournalist Jon Swaine has some photos / Vines from last night:
https://twitter.com/jonswaine
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:05 am

DarkAxel wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
It may have been completely by-the-book, no other option, and I can see that quite possibly being the case. It may also be that this was an unreasonable and possibly even criminal use of lethal force - this is also possible. At this point I'm waiting on further information, which won't be coming quickly. But Brown's actions prior to encountering the officer who shot him don't justify the shooting.
Sure. But what is the standard of proof for a criminal jury trial? I think if the officer is billed he will have absolutely no trouble demonstrating reasonable doubt about a number of issues.
I tend to agree. However, there is no predicting how a trial jury would react, and there is always the chance that evidence will emerge that would swing the verdict one way or another. There's also the pesky fact that "beyond a reasonable doubt" means different things to different folks, and that really really pesky fact that criminal indictments and trials are often swirling cesspools of political bullshit and populist pressure, especially when racial issues are raised or official police misconduct is alleged. If you (the non-determinative you, not "I'm calling out Stercutus" you) don't think that juries are influenced by such things, I've got some oceanfront property in Tennessee you might be interested in buying.

As an aside, I can't help but wonder if this "Us v Them" mentality is making things much worse than they should be.
Yeah, well the leadership of the police dept has a lot of self inflicted wounds on those accounts. The dept is 6% black while the city is 68% black. How it got that way is anyone's guess but I think it did not need to be that way. I'd also be willing to bet that the vast majority of officers do not live in Ferguson. It is very hard to make community policing work when the police are all outsiders.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-polic ... d=24962153
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:14 am

Anianna wrote:Reading back through the reddit feed from last night, I think police went too far to the other direction. Why aren't they picking up the looters? The community doesn't want them being aggressive with them, but that doesn't mean the community wants criminals looting and vandalizing the businesses. Why didn't police respond to the criminal activity?

The police can't win in this situation. You stop the looters and the POTUS gets on TV and chastises them. You stand back and people complain they aren't doing their job. You can't have it both ways.

I don't blame the officers for standing back at this point. I'm surprised they even get out of their cars at this point.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DannusMaximus » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:42 am

Stercutus wrote:The dept is 6% black while the city is 68% black. How it got that way is anyone's guess but I think it did not need to be that way. I'd also be willing to bet that the vast majority of officers do not live in Ferguson. It is very hard to make community policing work when the police are all outsiders.
I read an article that might explain at least part of the discrepancy in racial makeup. It stated that the Ferguson area was subject to a particularly rapid 'white flight' in the not too distant past, and posited that many of the officers on the department might have been hired when the area makeup was far less diverse. I can't find a link, but the article was from a credible national media source, IIRC. Seemed to make at least some sense.

And I concur that most of the officers likely don't live anywhere near the area they work in. That's pretty standard in my AO, at least.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Nick Adams » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:55 am

[/quote]...Yeah, well the leadership of the police dept has a lot of self inflicted wounds on those accounts. The dept is 6% black while the city is 68% black. How it got that way is anyone's guess but I think it did not need to be that way. I'd also be willing to bet that the vast majority of officers do not live in Ferguson. It is very hard to make community policing work when the police are all outsiders....[/quote]

I think it is a sure bet the way the department got to be only 6% black is because they did not have any qualified black applicants that wanted to work for them. I doubt many of the Blacks that lived in the community wanted to become a cop ...or could become one and the ones that did would know they are a desirable commodity and go to a department or state police where the pay is probably better.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:03 am

Nick Adams wrote: I think it is a sure bet the way the department got to be only 6% black is because they did not have any qualified black applicants that wanted to work for them. I doubt many of the Blacks that lived in the community wanted to become a cop ...or could become one and the ones that did would know they are a desirable commodity and go to a department or state police where the pay is probably better.
Gee, I wonder why you think that is.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Anianna » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:20 am

Rob Crilly linked this article on his Twitter feed. It depicts how Ferguson has changed over the years culminating in this event.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:26 am

WutsFrequencyKeneth wrote:
Nick Adams wrote: I think it is a sure bet the way the department got to be only 6% black is because they did not have any qualified black applicants that wanted to work for them. I doubt many of the Blacks that lived in the community wanted to become a cop ...or could become one and the ones that did would know they are a desirable commodity and go to a department or state police where the pay is probably better.
Gee, I wonder why you think that is.
Because that's what the Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said in a press conference?

Aug 13th (*Click*)
The Ferguson police force has 53 officers, three of whom are black. Jackson said the city has had trouble recruiting and retaining black officers.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:33 am

Browning 35 wrote:
WutsFrequencyKeneth wrote:
Nick Adams wrote: I think it is a sure bet the way the department got to be only 6% black is because they did not have any qualified black applicants that wanted to work for them. I doubt many of the Blacks that lived in the community wanted to become a cop ...or could become one and the ones that did would know they are a desirable commodity and go to a department or state police where the pay is probably better.
Gee, I wonder why you think that is.
Because that's what the Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said in a press conference?

Aug 13th (*Click*)
The Ferguson police force has 53 officers, three of whom are black. Jackson said the city has had trouble recruiting and retaining black officers.
Don't see anything about qualifications or the reasons they couldn't keep the ones they had.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:56 am

13% of the population means that there won't be quite as many regardless of the reason.

Plus I doubt the Chief is going to talk about shitty pay at that dept at a press conference.

As far as the national average of police officers 10% are Black. That means if that dept is looking to staff Blacks at a higher rate then it becomes difficult if the pay isn't all that great. Somewhat of a hot commodity, Black females even more so. Noticed that the higher paying Missouri Highway Patrol had quite a few Blacks.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-117278912.html

That's my only point. Less period and people gravitate toward higher paying jobs, they leave that dept and go somewhere else. Probably used as a stepping stone into law enforcement. Get a few years experience, get your resume in order and apply elsewhere.
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Boondock » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:06 am

Browning 35 wrote:Plus I doubt the Chief is going to talk about shitty pay ... Get a few years experience, get your resume in order and apply elsewhere.
Yup. The newspaper business has the same problems with minority recruitment and retention. And, sorry folks, but the town of Ferguson sounds like a sucky place to work. Nobody worth their salt is gonna stay very long.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:41 am

Anyone seen/heard this?

A Witness Conversation Unknowingly Captured at the Scene of the Ferguson Shooting is a Game-Changer (*Click*)
@6:28/6:29 of video

#1 How’d he get from there to there?

#2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck

{crosstalk}

#2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him

{crosstalk}

#2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –

#1. Oh, the police got his gun

#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like –

but he kept coming toward him

{crosstalk}

#2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing

#1 The Police?

#2 The Police shot him

#1 Police?

#2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about

“he took it from him”)
They're talking about this video and conversation.

http://youtu.be/VdL9dqkyjhM
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DannusMaximus » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:50 am

Boondock wrote:
Browning 35 wrote:Plus I doubt the Chief is going to talk about shitty pay ... Get a few years experience, get your resume in order and apply elsewhere.
Yup. The newspaper business has the same problems with minority recruitment and retention. And, sorry folks, but the town of Ferguson sounds like a sucky place to work. Nobody worth their salt is gonna stay very long.
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Only a certain percentage of any population is going to be able to pass the above the criteria and desire a job in law enforcement. Those who can pass the above criteria will also likely be able to find a pretty wide range of other jobs that perhaps have better pay and far less stress or danger.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RickOShea » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:54 am

Around here, some (but not all) of the smaller cities and townships won't hire a LEO that grew-up in that town......I've always understood that it was because TPTB didn't want said LEOs to be put into the position of having the opportunity to let their acquaintances slide.


Here's something I'm curious about: since the Guv declared a state-of-emergency/curfew, is the state going to reimburse the city/county for some (or all) of the OT they're having to pay for enforcing it?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:58 am

DannusMaximus wrote:Becoming a police officer (in most jurisdictions) means falling within a fairly narrow age range, having at least some post high-school education or being honorably discharged from the military, scoring very high on a standardized written test, completing a very structured formal interview, passing a fairly rigorous fitness test, and having a background investigation that doesn't have to be spotless but must be pretty damn clean.

Only a certain percentage of any population is going to be able to pass the above the criteria and desire a job in law enforcement. Those who can pass the above criteria will also likely be able to find a pretty wide range of other jobs that perhaps have better pay and far less stress or danger.
Yeah, exactly. Civil service exams and qualifications can really be difficult for people. Here an associates degree is required in most depts. That narrows it even further.

Plus a lot of the people that can pass those prerequisites go into other fields in public safety. Not everyone wants to be a cop and a lot of the ones who do can't pass.
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by woodsghost » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:04 pm

Stercutus wrote: Yeah, well the leadership of the police dept has a lot of self inflicted wounds on those accounts. The dept is 6% black while the city is 68% black. How it got that way is anyone's guess but I think it did not need to be that way. I'd also be willing to bet that the vast majority of officers do not live in Ferguson. It is very hard to make community policing work when the police are all outsiders.
Aside from what was posted above, I"ll mention that it is hard for any police department, local, state, or federal, to find candidates who can pass a drug screening and have a clean juvenile record. There are plenty of whites, as well as others, who consistently fail these tests. Marijuana and underage possession of alcohol have a lot to do with it, last I heard.

There are other factors which affect the proportion of the population available for employment. It has been a problem in certain minority groups and is a growing problem with whites. But any more detail is going to be VERY political. Suffice to say, there are a number of sad but legitimate reasons you might see a police force including 6% black officers while the population they serve is 68% black.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I"m just trying to explain.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by KGBrick » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:27 pm

RickOShea wrote:Around here, some (but not all) of the smaller cities and townships won't hire a LEO that grew-up in that town......I've always understood that it was because TPTB didn't want said LEOs to be put into the position of having the opportunity to let their acquaintances slide.

Or to 'get even.' There is or was an officer in Greenville that was ordered not to ever again to pull over, search, arrest, etc. a friend of mine.

Here's something I'm curious about: since the Guv declared a state-of-emergency/curfew, is the state going to reimburse the city/county for some (or all) of the OT they're having to pay for enforcing it?
Is the city/county still doing any of the protest/curfew related work? I should've paid more attention to the LEOs in the stream I watched last night.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Woods Walker » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:32 pm

Stercutus wrote:
DarkAxel wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
It may have been completely by-the-book, no other option, and I can see that quite possibly being the case. It may also be that this was an unreasonable and possibly even criminal use of lethal force - this is also possible. At this point I'm waiting on further information, which won't be coming quickly. But Brown's actions prior to encountering the officer who shot him don't justify the shooting.
Sure. But what is the standard of proof for a criminal jury trial? I think if the officer is billed he will have absolutely no trouble demonstrating reasonable doubt about a number of issues.
I tend to agree. However, there is no predicting how a trial jury would react, and there is always the chance that evidence will emerge that would swing the verdict one way or another. There's also the pesky fact that "beyond a reasonable doubt" means different things to different folks, and that really really pesky fact that criminal indictments and trials are often swirling cesspools of political bullshit and populist pressure, especially when racial issues are raised or official police misconduct is alleged. If you (the non-determinative you, not "I'm calling out Stercutus" you) don't think that juries are influenced by such things, I've got some oceanfront property in Tennessee you might be interested in buying.

As an aside, I can't help but wonder if this "Us v Them" mentality is making things much worse than they should be.
Yeah, well the leadership of the police dept has a lot of self inflicted wounds on those accounts. The dept is 6% black while the city is 68% black. How it got that way is anyone's guess but I think it did not need to be that way. I'd also be willing to bet that the vast majority of officers do not live in Ferguson. It is very hard to make community policing work when the police are all outsiders.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ferguson-polic ... d=24962153
But beyond the surface numbers what does that prove? Surely there are standards and qualifications which must be met. In order to prove discrimination someone would have to review all the applicants then see if their hire or lack of was based on meeting/exceeding those standards and qualifications or something else. Also those standard would have to be reviewed as well. I don't know if there is a problem with their hiring practices as don't have enough information to draw an educated conclusion.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RickOShea » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:40 pm

KGBrick wrote:
RickOShea wrote:
Here's something I'm curious about: since the Guv declared a state-of-emergency/curfew, is the state going to reimburse the city/county for some (or all) of the OT they're having to pay for enforcing it?
Is the city/county still doing any of the protest/curfew related work? I should've paid more attention to the LEOs in the stream I watched last night.
When I was watching the festivities on TV around 12:30am this morning, the reporter(s) made it sound like some of the incoming anti-riot troops were from several departments in the surrounding area. And while the guys & gals with shields and clubs were moving down the street, the SWAT-type guys were clearing the buildings on either side.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DarkAxel » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:40 pm

Woods Walker wrote:
DarkAxel wrote: As an aside, I can't help but wonder if this "Us v Them" mentality is making things much worse than they should be.
That depends on what a person's definition of Us or Them is. To me "Us" equals tolerance, freedom and civilized behavior. Them equals intolerance, totalitarianism and barbarous force. Other people may have different views. To each their own.
By "Us v Them", I mean the increasing tendency for police officers to think of themselves as separate and above the communities they police, and the tendency of communities to push against law enforcement because of a "snitches-get-stitches-and-fuck-the-police" or similar mindset.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by crypto » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:41 pm

Heya all.

Going through questions, in approx order:

1. How is everyone in STL?
Good. Several people from our local chapter have gone to the protests (not while wearing ZS shirts mind you) on a couple different days. The ZS member in Ferguson who is hosting my scanner and laptop is saying racial tension is worse than its ever been since he moved there 10 years ago, though.


2. How is it that Ferguson PD has an overwhelmingly white police force while its population is majority-minority?
One of the previous posters got it: White flight about 20 years ago, followed by an acceleration of it after 2 tornadoes ran through the area in the last 3 years. Many houses were damaged, sold cheap, and turned into HUD housing in the city. Lots of the police have been on the force for 10% years.
Im not sure why one poster in the thread would think that Ferguson wouldn't be able to turn out qualified black applicants to the force. Thats a pretty goddamned offensive comment, actually.

3. Why didnt the police do more to protect businesses from looters on Friday?
Because the Governor told them not to engage with the protesters after the previous nights of escalating violence. The concern was that a line of riot cops would draw protestors around them, making the problem worse, and eventually resulting either in violence or the need for the police to withdraw to avoid a fight, which would leave the property unprotected again.

As it was, on Saturday morning, the governor declared a state of emergency, along with the curfew. This was not popular with either residents or the media, who felt they needed to be immune from the curfew to watch the watchers. The cops DID line up in front of businesses though.

Last night wasn't too terrible. Some fights with the cops after midnight when some protestors refused to leave.

The state of emergency and curfew has been extended tonight too. On a personal level, I'm not very happy about having an enumerated constitutional right curtailed, but under the circumstances I don't quite know what the alternative is.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Nick Adams » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:30 pm

I think many departments are very eager to hire blacks.

Cant help but think about the Hartford Ct. fire department in 2003, they had 7 openings for Capt and 8 for lieutenant,,,they really wanted to fill them with blacks because they were worried about perceived look that blacks were under represented,
118 people took the exam
The passage rate for whites for capt. exame was 64% Blacks 38% the Lieutenant test was 58% white, 32% black
city Charter said that the top 10 scores would be eligible for the job....big Problems they were all white
Hartford just said well since that didn't turn out like we wanted the tests mean nothing and they were tossed out so that they could promote who they wanted
The white cops that had done the best sued and years later supreme court ruled in their favor , they got the job and several million

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