A friend, a horse, and...a gun?

[Jeriah]

Hello Zombie Squad,

I've got a question for y'all, and it's actually for a friend of mine. Unlike going telling your doctor that "your friend" might have herpes and you want to know what "your friend" should do about it, this really is a friend of mine. In fact, this is her: http://www.valentinavella.com/

She is doing an art project, with the working title of "The Great Solitary Adventure," in which she will be traveling across the US on the Great Discovery Trail (http://www.discoverytrail.org/news/parker/index.html) by horse.

She would like to bring a firearm along with her, for protection from wild animals and ill-meaning humans. She is not a "gun person" at all, and does not plan to hunt. She just wants to be armed for her safety.

So, my question for you all is this: What sort of firearm should she purchase and bring with her? Her main concerns are legalities, since she's traveling through many states, beginning in Illinois and ending in California. I considered the following suggestions but would like to hear what you all think:

1. A 20-gauge shotgun. Recoil not as severe as a 12-gauge (she's a small-framed woman), easier to aim and operate than a handgun, arguably somewhat more forgiving than a rifle re: errors of aiming (yes, you still have to aim, but at something like, say, a Western Diamondback, a pattern may be better than a single projectile).

2. A revolver. Suitable for defense, but won't run into any legal questions re: semi-auto handguns. Easier to access (holster) than a long gun, but harder to aim, esp. with limited experience.

3. A lever-action rifle. Similar to above but in long gun format. Bonus points for "looking the part" on horseback.

I'm going to take her to the range and we'll try some things out, see what she likes, but I'm interested in some thoughts as a starting point.

Also, legalities of interstate travel, via horse, with a firearm?

[Vicarious_Lee]

Come on, man. This woman only has 4 options on her cross-country horseback adventure:

1. Lever Action rifle.
2. Side-by-side stagecoach gun (short shotgun).
3. Both of the above.
4. All that plus a single action revolver (that's starting ot get silly even by ZS Firearms' standards).

[Braxton]

Taurus Judge.


Seriously.



.410 for snakes and such, .45lc for two legged critters.

[Redeyes]

I'd go with the lever action in a soft shooting caliber. The lower recoil and the shoulder stock will help her to get more accurate hits faster. She is not a gun person. She will need to be trained. This will be the easiest thing to train her to shoot.

[MacAttack]

This could be the only time and situation I would recommend a Judge of some type.


The only time you need to shoot a snake is when you can't walk away or the snake follows you.
At any distance where a full length shotguns shot pattern is wider than the barrel you should easily be able to walk away.

Most if not all dangerous wild animals will try to stay away from a mounted rider.
For those that don't the horse should help you out a bit, they are faster than most dangerous North American predators.

And for anything thats left over the judge should be more than enough fire power.


And it could be pressed into the hunting role.
I wonder if a 3 inch chamber insert for .22lr could be used? That would make it a bit better for getting squirrels and other ground game.


I would check local hunting laws though.

[Browning 35]

Come on, man. This woman only has 4 options on her cross-country horseback adventure:

1. Lever Action rifle.
2. Side-by-side stagecoach gun (short shotgun).
3. Both of the above.
4. All that plus a single action revolver (that's starting ot get silly even by ZS Firearms' standards).

Actually for a cross country horseback trip she could do a whole lot worse than Options 1 and 4.

Option 1 because she might run into something that needs to be shot from farther away than is possible with a revolver and a revolver because she's probably not going to carry a rifle with her everywhere she goes in camp (say to pee or bathe).

Only thing is since she isn't a gun person does she know enough about them where they might do her some good in a jam or is she willing to learn?

Plus she's traveling through Illinois and California (two States with crappy anti-gun laws). Legally is she going to have a problem even if she's just armed with a lever and a revolver? (with those two she stands the best chance of explaining herself)

[yossarian]

Ruger Security Six or GP-100 in .357 loaded with .38spc, maybe +P depending on the results of your range trip.

I'd stay away from long guns. No matter what you do with it, it would be in plain sight and much harder to secure.

I think the more important question is: Does the horse have any firearms experience?


As far as Illinois, she should be fine traveling as long as its cased and unloaded. There's the fanny pack crowd over there that gets around CCW by carrying an empty gun on their person in a fanny pack and a magazine or speedloader in a seperate pocket/pouch. Best bet is to call the attorney general in each state she'll be passing through and ask about laws specific to horseback.

[arc_second]

Taurus Judge.
Seriously.
.410 for snakes and such, .45lc for two legged critters.

If she takes a Taurus Judge into California, they'll call it an illegal Short-Barreled Shotgun (CA-only definition, not Fed definition) and it'll be a felony.

For that matter, most places in California, any firearm would have to be unloaded and locked up as there is no CHL reciprocity here.

Of the choices presented though, I'd probably go with a good revolver. Easier to stash away in a pack (even cased), if a lower profile is needed.

Hope this helps.
-James

EDIT:: Found some evidence to back up my claim

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... ostcount=6
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

[Rugger]

A lever action rifle is my vote. But that's the least of my concerns. New firearms person making a cross country trek with a gun is even a little down the list. I'm a little more concerned about the cross-country horsey ride aspect of this than anything else. Riding a horse can be ~like~ using a gun. But a gun that doesn't care if you follow the cardinal rules of firearm safety to perfection. It can go off for any reason at any time. And it seems to always be when you're on it. I've grown up riding horses, and I'd be very hesitant to do this on a horse that I didn't have at least a couple years of experience with. ESPECIALLY if the horse doesnt have any experience around loud bangs. I sincerely hope she has a great horse that she's ridden for a long time and knows really well. It sounds like a freaking blast though.

ETA: Yeahhhhhh, I just checked out her website and read through the entire fundraising site and watched the video. Zero experience on horseback!! She's just started taking lessons, doesn't have the horse she will be riding yet, doesn't know how to use a firearm, isn't going to hunt for part of her food?!?!?! This is complete and utter foolishness. There's stretches where she's going to need a pack horse/mule for her food and water, alone. I realize being located where most people are, that they have a hard time wrapping their head around the concept of truly being out in the middle of nowhere, but those places still exist. And I'm talking being able to ride for a week without seeing anybody. Then you get into places where you have desert. Your horses weight load just tripled because you are now carrying ALL of your horse's food AND water. That's a lot of water. Don't know if she's thought about this, but horses sweat just like us. In the desert, a human's water needs are small compared to a horse.

Jeriah, I would talk her out of this. At a minimum, don't loan her your gear, it's probably not coming back. This is a super cool idea, but extremely dangerous and very stupid to do solo, especially with her complete lack of experience of any kind. I would love to do this; but as an experienced horse and outdoor guy, I would do this only if I had a partner, a horse that I had a lot of experience with, and a pack horse.

[Gregory Merlon]

The shotgun has my vote, not particularly because it's the best performance wise, but it'll be the best combination of social/legal acceptability and all around performance. I think it'll be unlikely that she'll have to use any gun, like MacAttack already stated. Particularly with a new gun owner, not only becuase of the shot spread, but also because I think it's easier to learn to good accuracy quicker because there is a stock and a longer sight radius. If recoil is still a factor in 20 gauge, she can get recoil reduced loads (obviously somewhat underpowered compared to normal rounds, but better than nothing).

Something else to consider, if she is travelling through any hunting areas, it might be best to make sure that her gun follows any local hunting regulations as well. She may not be hunting, but some law enforcement or wildlife officials might not take it too kindly if she's in a hunting area with a gun that doesn't line up in those regulations. I don't know much about many of the local laws going through those areas, but I also think a shotgun has the best chance of matching up with the vast majority of those regulations.

[DarkAxel]

If I were your friend, Jeriah, I'd probably go with a Rossi levergun in .357mag.

[Rev]

A revolver and either the levergun or a shotgun. I do not advocate the single action.

[RickOShea]

And:


Or:

[sigboy40]

Put me down in support of a 357 lever gun. I also think most of your storage and security issues could be solved witha full scabbard that could be locked somehow. Even if it was just a padlock through two zipper ends. It would keep you out of trouble in cities and towns.

[yossarian]

I bet that stuff is really effective on horses too. The bear/badguy isn't carrying all of your stuff on its back when it runs away.

[Regulator]

Is she riding and being followed by a trail vehicle? She may find more use in a flare gun and a cell phone for rescue. I don't wanna sound like an ass but from reading her site it sounds like she has much more important things to work out if she expects to pull this off. She's originally from Rome, does she realize how big the US is? I'm only asking as I've met Europeans that just didn't.

I hope she can make it happen, but damn, that'd be a tough ride for most anyone.

[RickOShea]

I bet that stuff is really effective on horses too. The bear/badguy isn't carrying all of your stuff on its back when it runs away.

I figure that if she's riding the horse, trying to run would be the best bet.

But if she's walking it, or is setting up camp for the night (depending on how good the horse is hobbled), Mr. Horse probably won't be sticking around when Mr. Bear drops in for a visit.

[KentsOkay]

New thing on the bucketlist. Ride across America.

My horse is firework proof, I would assume he would be GTG on firearms, but I would check this before I ride across a continent.

I'd really recommend a Spot. We sell them at work, had a guy coming in to buy another for a friend after his, I quote "Kept my ass from becoming a frozen meatsicle for bears in Whyoming".

Guy bought the smartphone pair-able model. Maybe convince them to chip in for the trip?

http://findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=116

[Browning 35]

I bet that stuff is really effective on horses too. The bear/badguy isn't carrying all of your stuff on its back when it runs away.

Isn't that what most badguys do when they steal your stuff?

(Throw it over their back or under their arm and run away)

[yossarian]

I bet that stuff is really effective on horses too. The bear/badguy isn't carrying all of your stuff on its back when it runs away.

Isn't that what most badguys do when they steal your stuff?

(Throw it over their back or under their arm and run away)

I don't think they do that after you hit'em with bear mace.

[Kutter_0311]

I will reiterate the very sensible advice mentioned above:

1) Get way more experience on your very own horse.
2) Figure out your course of travel and logistics realistically. I advise a route recon.
3) Train with firearms while mounted on your very own horse.
4) Glock

If done right, she'll be ready for this trip in 3-5 years.

If done wrong, she may be found 3-5 years after she's officially gone missing. WIDE. OPEN. NOTHING. FOR DAYS.

Also, don't loan her gear you ever expect to see again.

[MaconCJ7]

Jeriah, I would talk her out of this. At a minimum, don't loan her your gear, it's probably not coming back. This is a super cool idea, but extremely dangerous and very stupid to do solo, especially with her complete lack of experience of any kind. I would love to do this; but as an experienced horse and outdoor guy, I would do this only if I had a partner, a horse that I had a lot of experience with, and a pack horse.

Quoted to make sure you all read his post. Riding cross country isn't something you just wake up one day and decide to do. It takes a number of skills to accomplish, being a well experienced rider one of them. I just looked at the trail. She's a fool. While it would be fun, it's not something for city folk to try. Being able to ride around an arena does not equal mountain passes. Please talk her out of it as there is a huge likelyhood of her seriously injuring herself. I'm not kidding. If she tries running that trail by herself as a novice rider, she is an idiot. I would barely support her doing it with a more experienced rider joining her.

And now she wants the ability to shoot while riding as well? The reason it looks easy in Westerns is because those are well experienced riders firing blanks. Cowboy action shooting takes years to master, but several long months of daily training to become proficient.

[Trebor]

I agree with Gregory, she's got bigger issues to worry about than "What gun to bring."

Art projects are nice, but the realities of life don't go away just because she's "doing art." I think she's so caught up with the romance of "hardships on the trail" that she's blind to actual dangers involved. And the sheer amount of work it will take.

A $11,000 budget for the first year is WAY underfunded. She's going to need to BUY a horse, because no one in their right mind will loan or rent one to her. She's going to have to stable, feed and take care of that horse, not just on the trip itself, but in the training time with that horse leading up to the trip. Starting the trip on a horse she's never ridden is a sure recipe for disaster.

I'm not a "horseman," by any means, but I've ridden enough to know how hard this would be at all, and doing it solo just multiplies the difficulty factor. At this point the phrase "In over her head" comes to mind.

Now, to answer your specific question: The big issue is going to be legalities. She's going to have to confirm to state laws and possibly local ordinances in every community she travels through. That's going to be tough. First thing she needs to do is research state laws for each state. Than see if that state prohibits local units of government from ALSO enacting firearms laws. If they do have a "firearms preemption law" than she's knows all she needs to know once she learns state law. If they don't, than she'll need to check local ordinances of all the towns she plans to pass through in that state.

As has been mentioned, she's also going to have to conform to hunting regs. Whether or not she plans on hunting, if she's "in the field" with a firearm, hunting regs apply if it's in season.

The only way I can think to make this work is if she has a LOCKABLE container for her firearm on her horse. I'm thinking a long gun would be easier legally. A take down gun would allow her to fit it in a shorter lockable case. She may also need to break the gun down to meet local requirements in some areas. She would also have a full length scabbard for when she's traveling in those areas where open long gun carry is allowed.

If she does go with a handgun, I agree that a revolver is easier to meet legalities with than a semi-auto. (The Judge is not a good choice though. The .410 pattern is a joke).

The big question is: What does she plan to do with the gun? If she wants "anti snake" protection, she's likely better off avoiding the snake or guiding the horse away from it. The odds of seeing and identifying the snake before it bits (or scares) the horse, and being able to access the gun and shoot the snake first are so low as to be laughable.

In other words, the best anti-snake protection is avoidance.

If she wants a gun for when she's camped, that's a different issue. Any of them would work. The only issue is that, by herself, she is an easier target as no one is there to watch her while she sleeps and she can't rely on the horse giving her warning.

Does she plan to shoot from horseback, even just in an emergency? Unless the horse is trained to accept gunshots, shooting from horseback will very likely spook the horse and make the situation worse. She could easily fall or have the spooked horse run off. Now she has to face whatever required her to shoot, plus the fact she's on a spooked horse, or possibly on the ground.

At this point, I wouldn't worry about "what gun" or even try to pick a gun yet. If you want to help, give her some general introduction to firearms and let her know this is NOT the only firearms training she needs before the trip. But, for now, just showing her the basics is enough so she can at least think about firearms in a realistics and semi-informed manner.

If everythng comes together to make the project happen than she can get some more firearms training in the last few months leading up to the project and pick her firearm then. There's plenty enough to do between now and then.

As to specific suggestions, I'd go with a take-down lever action rifle in some medium caliber (.30 - 30 or larger) or an easily taken down shotgun in 12 Gauge. Possibly a side by side as they take down easy and are easy to operate.

If she goes with a handgun, avoid single actions, as I don't believe they are for newbies. A solid, double action revolver like a Ruger GP 100 would be my pick.

One other thought: To make it easier for her legallly she really should get one or more CCW permits that cover the states she will travel through. If she has valid CCW permits for most of the states that turns the legal end on its head and makes carrying a handgun easier legally than carrying a long gun.

[MacAttack]

What if her horse throws a shoe?

She will need training on how to replace it and carry the tools to do it.