City or country???

[RickOShea]

90% of city dwellers know nothing about hunting or trapping, let alone shooting straight.

Interesting. How did you arrive at those numbers?

Maybe it's a regional/cultural thing "up there", Blacksmith.

[Blacksmith]

90% of city dwellers know nothing about hunting or trapping, let alone shooting straight.

Interesting. How did you arrive at those numbers?

Maybe it's a regional/cultural thing "up there", Blacksmith.

When it comes to Canada I am just an ignorant know-it-all American. I have never even been to Canada although we are making plans to go on a long trip in a few years.

[Turtlewolf]

90% of city dwellers know nothing about hunting or trapping, let alone shooting straight.

Interesting. How did you arrive at those numbers?

Maybe it's a regional/cultural thing "up there", Blacksmith.

It is neither regional or cultural.
It is common sense.
Once it hits -10C the first to go without natural gas or electrical heat are the immigrants from warmer climates which is all of them, some will adapt but most will not.
Then go the sick and elderly who are stuck in homes and hospitals (later than the 24-48 hour period as some care givers actualy will stay), human nature is not so nice as people want to beleive.
Looting and such will account for at least 10-20% over all.
Those who make it out of the city will have a steep learning curve as the temperature drops and they realize that deer and other animals aren't the doe eyed idiots you see on Bambi. Most die of exposure or lack of water in 24-48 hours.
Most of those will starve as thier small food stashes freeze and burst and are un replacable.
This is any city in North America, the process is slower in warmer climates but accelerates again as the temperature climbs and heat starts killing instead of cold.
To think that the majority of city dwellers know the first thing about country life is naive.
Mind you this is a worst case scenario, I doubt it will occur.

[Turtlewolf]

90% of city dwellers know nothing about hunting or trapping, let alone shooting straight.

Interesting. How did you arrive at those numbers?

Maybe it's a regional/cultural thing "up there", Blacksmith.

When it comes to Canada I am just an ignorant know-it-all American. I have never even been to Canada although we are making plans to go on a long trip in a few years.

I do not consider you ignorant or know it all, having not met you I would say that those conclusions are yours alone but perhaps one day we may toss back a few and discuss our differing ideas.

[Blacksmith]

I do not consider you ignorant or know it all, having not met you I would say that those conclusions are yours alone but perhaps one day we may toss back a few and discuss our differing ideas.

Here-here I will let you know when we get going on the MC tour.

[RickOShea]

90% of city dwellers know nothing about hunting or trapping, let alone shooting straight.

Interesting. How did you arrive at those numbers?

Maybe it's a regional/cultural thing "up there", Blacksmith.

It is neither regional or cultural.
It is common sense.
Once it hits -10C the first to go without natural gas or electrical heat are the immigrants from warmer climates which is all of them, some will adapt but most will not.
Then go the sick and elderly who are stuck in homes and hospitals (later than the 24-48 hour period as some care givers actualy will stay), human nature is not so nice as people want to beleive.
Looting and such will account for at least 10-20% over all.
Those who make it out of the city will have a steep learning curve as the temperature drops and they realize that deer and other animals aren't the doe eyed idiots you see on Bambi. Most die of exposure or lack of water in 24-48 hours.
Most of those will starve as thier small food stashes freeze and burst and are un replacable.
This is any city in North America, the process is slower in warmer climates but accelerates again as the temperature climbs and heat starts killing instead of cold.
To think that the majority of city dwellers know the first thing about country life is naive.
Mind you this is a worst case scenario, I doubt it will occur.

And all of ^^^that^^^ explains your "90% of city dwellers know nothing about hunting or trapping, let alone shooting straight" comment how?

That may be how it is in your AO, but around here there are a shit-ton of "city dwellers" who own and shoot firearms, and belong to hunting clubs and fishing camps.

Like I said, "It must be a regional/cultural thing".

[Blacksmith]

Looting and such will account for at least 10-20% over all.

So 15% of 60% of the urban population of Canada is 2.2 million people. You are saying that 2.2 million people will die from looting in Canada within 48 hours of the power going out?

[Spookadelic]

In regards to the question city or country...
For me I think the best answer is somewhere in the middle.

You don't want the hordes of looters, staving, and desperate people that a city will provide.
But I am not the get-off-my-lawn-go-it-alone-country-boy-can-survive type.

For me you don't want a city, but you do want community.
Also when SHTF the distance between rural community members is going to get a LOT bigger, especially if there is no power, fuel, and plenty of hostiles.

A town or a village is what I want.

[Turtlewolf]

Looting and such will account for at least 10-20% over all.

So 15% of 60% of the urban population of Canada is 2.2 million people. You are saying that 2.2 million people will die from looting in Canada within 48 hours of the power going out?

In a worst case scenario yes. Especialy if it is cold.
As for the 90%, I should have clarifyed that. Just because 60% of a population of a city (or more) own firearms and books/videos on trapping/shooting or have watched survival shows dosen't mean that they can. There are a lot of city dwellers who will survive, but even more that think that just because they have a firearm that it increases thier survival rate with no training and no hands on experience.
Even in the USA many firearms owners are ignorant of hunting, shooting under duress/stress, trapping or even field stripping thier weapon. Even those who have taken defensive firearms courses know nothing about the habits of animals unless they've actualy been in the bush and most simply put thier weapon back in the closet until the next course (if they even bother). That those who don't or haven't ever shot and add the ignorant owners to the list and yes the vast majority of city dwellers know nothing of trapping/hunting/survival, however I ment and did not to actualy type in 60% originaly and for some reason thought thats what it said even after reading all the quotes.
Proof reading is your friend but sometimes we fail.
Sorry guys.

[RickOShea]

As for the 90%, I should have clarifyed that. Just because 60% of a population of a city (or more) own firearms and books/videos on trapping/shooting or have watched survival shows dosen't mean that they can.

So in your part of the world, hunting clubs and fishing camps are actually just "book of the month" get-togethers?.....Interesting.

[Evan the Diplomat]

Now the choice of city or country is this, if you are in the country then stay but if your position in the city is defensable and secure for the initial 48 hour panic fest lock down the hatches and stay put as your worst enemy will be boredom as the idiots die around you.
Your worst mistake could be letting anyone know you are are a prepper, makes you a target which comprimises your safety and the security of your loved ones.
Once the initial panic dies down you're reasonably safe in most cities for a few weeks or even months at least.
If you have to bug out wait as long as you can or go as early as possible, if you get stuck in the rush you're pretty much screwed.

You make an excellent point about riding out the initial panic (I'm sticking with the OP's original scenario of of a flu-like pandemic) You lost me with your broad brush characterization of city dwellers and "tropical immigrants."

While they might not have grown up in the Great White North, they are not stupid and it is a safe bet that a good percentage of the Tamils living in Toronto are ex-Tamil Tiger fighters and I'm sure that other refugee immigrants have had to kill to survive the horrors of the DRC, Rwanda or El Salvador before becoming guests of Canadian hospitality.

Lastly I'm sure many had to shoot or fish for sustenance in their country of origin. I'll wager there are more similarities to hunting a kudu and hunting a white tail deer than there are differences.

[Blacksmith]

Just having a hard time swallowing the mass genocide in Canada 48 hours after a catastrophe. Those things are pretty rare in societies where people really hate each other. The same people who can't shoot straight, have never shot anything before, are totally ignorant of weapons maintenance and and shooting under stress are going to suddenly start killing each other in huge numbers?

Everyone is going to freeze to death because they don't have enough blankets in Canada?

[mariposa]

If push came to shove, the county seat is 8 miles away, and I might be able to do that trip on foot in a day.

You couldn't walk 8 miles in 24 hours?

It would be 8 miles there, and 8 miles home (16 miles). I've done a 21 or 23-mile charity walk, completing it in 7 hours, but that was almost 30 years ago. As others have said, it would be depending on conditions. If I needed to stay away from the main roads, I'm looking at crossing areas with various wild animals, including venomous snakes. Disaster or criminals aside, my asthma would make it harder on a day with poor air quality. I now also have a bad back, so I'd have to be careful about how much of a pack I carried. Under fairly normal circumstances, I could handle 8 miles within 24 hours.

[Turtlewolf]

As for the 90%, I should have clarifyed that. Just because 60% of a population of a city (or more) own firearms and books/videos on trapping/shooting or have watched survival shows dosen't mean that they can.

So in your part of the world, hunting clubs and fishing camps are actually just "book of the month" get-togethers?.....Interesting.

Hunting and fishing clubs are "book of the month" clubs everywhere.
I'm not going any further into the topic at this point than this, I said in a worst case scenario there will be trouble. I said 10-20% of people fleeing a city will die due to other people. I did not say that people who were untrained or unarmed were going to start killing others. I said (or should have) that even though people are supposedly "hunters/fisherpeople" or have training it dosen't prepare them for a reality where they will have to use thier firearms more than a week out of the year. Most of these people hardly shoot at all yet would still qualify as a hunter by all accounts and this is true of most "hunters" in Canada or the USA. They don't know the habits of the animals, they have range finders, trail cameras and guides. In a worst case scenario these people have one or two boxes of ammunition and a scoped rifle, what happens when the scope fails in extreme weather fluctuations?
Most "hunters" couldn't use iron sights to save thier lives or estimate an accurate distance these days.
I said that people would turn on each other.
I do not appreciate people putting words where I didn't type them but should have expected the dog pile so I'm stepping out of the discussion now and won't respond again.

[ineffableone]

To answer the OP question city or country and weather to bug out in a disaster now he is living in the city. I am of the opinion bugging in is usually the preferred thing. It keeps you with your largest amount of resources, your home and all that is in it. You can stock it up and have a pretty comfortable bug in.

That said being in a city means you should have a good bug out plan and gear ready, as urban bug ins can come to a quick need to bug out due to many different reasons. Unchecked fires coming toward your home, for example. Spotting roving bands of looters breaking into homes, possibly killing people in them. Feral dogs taking over the streets, rats breading out of control and swarming in. Dead bodies in homes causing more disease. And so many other reasons that might drive you out of the urban area. So have a plan, have the gear, be ready, but plan to try and stay if you can. Build up community neighbourhood contacts. Do what you can to make your area safer if SHTF.

As others mentioned already my feeling is smaller city/town/village are the best places. You have infrastructure and community but it is not overly large. People in these smaller places tend to pull together better than in large urban areas, or in suburbs where people commute to work and to friends. Oddly serious urban areas can tend to have pretty tight knit communities too. Some neighbourhoods in urban areas can actually be more friendly than suburbs.

To me I often think suburbs could be one of the worst places. They are close to the urban areas and the most likely targets of the serious looting. Urban areas instinctively will see the suburbs as the land of plenty where all the rich people lived. Many of the suburbanites will flee leaving their homes open for such looting, making it more of an attractive target for these looters. If your bugging in in the suburbs you will want to keep an eye on how empty your neighbourhood gets. If it gets too empty you might want to leave even if your set up well and surviving as it is likely you will have unwanted visitors eventually. If you have enough neighbours to protect your suburban area then stay but if not think about leaving.

[Tater Raider]

Best reply I've seen yet is, "Live where you are comfortable."

Simple reasons are sometimes the best ones.

[DarkAxel]

When I lived in the city, I was lucky to have good relationships with everyone in my apartment building, let alone the whole complex. Out here in the country, I'm on good terms with just about all of the people within a five mile radius of my home, and the sense of community is much stronger here. But country living does have some serious disadvantages in the NAW, and during a SHTF event, I imagine the challenges would just increase.

[tookieblueeyes]

I have lived in cities, visit them often, but I live out in the country and I think I would be better off where I am as opposed to being in a city.

The majority of inner city dwellers are not likely to take to the country in search of fulfilling their needs because they have no skills that would aid them in doing so. It would be like visiting another planet for them. So they would stick to what they know. The streets.

Those who live in cities but have the necessary skill-sets that are required for sustaining themselves in a wilderness (being anywhere outside city limits where the stoplights end and the stars begin) would probably migrate to areas that they are familiar with. Perhaps they hunt in the foothills over to the south, or fish frequently in the rivers to the east, maybe they camp with their family quite often in the mountains to the west and they have friends living near the gorges to the north. Those would be likely destinations for these people to want to go. Places they are familiar with, are welcome, feel safe or have prior permission or knowledge of.

But these theories of mine are based solely on the specific set of catastrophes I have in mind that don't include things like a dirty bomb is about to go off somewhere in the vicinity of town hall and people must scatter in all directions, or the polar ice caps melt suddenly and people from coast lines are forces like drowned rats inwards throughout America like roaches when you turn the light on. Scenarios where people are FORCED from their homes. The OPs first post hints that those people aren't "forced" from their homes but are "choosing" to leave to look for greener pastures.

People are hardwired to be "social" animals and they tend to be creatures of familiarity and comfort. Knowing this psychology helps when assessing what people are "prone" to do. People are 'prone' to panic and act irrationally, but through all that irrational behavior and insanity there always remains the fact that they all will "stick to what they know". There are cases of unpredictability in people, and these are the people that you need to watch out for because with them... anything goes.

In any case... I will prefer the country and let those who stick to what they know stay in the streets of the surrounding towns and cities, and I will let those migrating to familiar hunting grounds pass on their way.

Just for fun... find yourself an inner city kid (17-21), one who runs around causing trouble, the ones most likely to rob you blind now let alone in a PAW, give him a gun if he doesn't already have one of his own. Let him keep whatever he has in his pockets, which probably includes a lighter since the majority smoke or smoke pot and set him loose on a wild pig hunt or even a quail shoot, hell give him a frog gig and ask him to fetch you a bullfrog, whatever, point is he has to make it for a week... and leave him there for a week. He be dead in a couple days so maybe you wont want to come back He be dead of EXPOSURE!)
*** do not try this at home kids ***

Point is... the majority of those threats people are so worried about can probably survive much better in their own comfort zones than they could ever hope to in a wilderness (anywhere outside city limits where streetlights end and stars begin). They know that too so they will stay where they feel safe, in town or close by.

Those who venture out like Mad Max and the Thunderdome... All bets are off, I just hope the ones I encounter are just travelers on the path to familiar hunting grounds so that there won't be conflict, but if they aren't.... (use your own imaginations).

[RickOShea]

While they might not have grown up in the Great White North, they are not stupid and it is a safe bet that a good percentage of the Tamils living in Toronto are ex-Tamil Tiger fighters and I'm sure that other refugee immigrants have had to kill to survive the horrors of the DRC, Rwanda or El Salvador before becoming guests of Canadian hospitality.

Not to mention that a lot of them had to rely on "bush meat" for the majority of their protein intake, are very adept at hunting with home-made primitive weapons/snares, and making human drives.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Just for fun... find yourself an inner city kid (17-21), one who runs around causing trouble, the ones most likely to rob you blind now let alone in a PAW, give him a gun if he doesn't already have one of his own. Let him keep whatever he has in his pockets, which probably includes a lighter since the majority smoke or smoke pot and set him loose on a wild pig hunt or even a quail shoot, hell give him a frog gig and ask him to fetch you a bullfrog, whatever, point is he has to make it for a week... and leave him there for a week. He be dead in a couple days so maybe you wont want to come back He be dead of EXPOSURE!)
*** do not try this at home kids ***

Better yet, start teaching them to be constructive by teaching them the skills they need. Remember kiddies, as fun as it is to feel superior to everyone else, it's a lot more fun to remember the spirit of charity and outreach that ZS was founded on.

Building your community to be better and more resilient is easier than trying to hold them at bay when the lights go out for a month.

[Jsimmonsgr]

Bug out, its the country for me when the time comes. It will be easier to get food, water, and shelter without having to fight not only the undead but also any survivors.

[Manimal2878]

Just for fun... find yourself an inner city kid (17-21), one who runs around causing trouble, the ones most likely to rob you blind now let alone in a PAW, give him a gun if he doesn't already have one of his own. Let him keep whatever he has in his pockets, which probably includes a lighter since the majority smoke or smoke pot and set him loose on a wild pig hunt or even a quail shoot, hell give him a frog gig and ask him to fetch you a bullfrog, whatever, point is he has to make it for a week... and leave him there for a week. He be dead in a couple days so maybe you wont want to come back He be dead of EXPOSURE!)
*** do not try this at home kids ***

Take a straight-A student from a rural community and tell them they have to survive for a week in the the same situation you'd have have probably the same result, just because you are from the country doesn't mean you know anything about hunting or even have an interest in it or have any knowledge about wilderness survival and the dangers of exposure.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Good point Manimal. The average ZSer couldn't survive that test.

And as a side-note, while inner city kids might be more liekly to smoke weed or crack (even that depends on your area, it's the opposite in many areas) the rural kids are more likely to smoke meth.

[Blacksmith]

But these theories of mine are based solely on the specific set of catastrophes I have in mind that don't include things like a dirty bomb is about to go off somewhere in the vicinity of town hall and people must scatter in all directions, or the polar ice caps melt suddenly and people from coast lines are forces like drowned rats inwards throughout America like roaches when you turn the light on. Scenarios where people are FORCED from their homes. The OPs first post hints that those people aren't "forced" from their homes but are "choosing" to leave to look for greener pastures.

To expound on that... leaving is absolute last case and ordered by the authorities in most scenarios for most people. Large numbers of people are not just going to start heading in random directions to get out of a city hoping to score some eggs or a chicken. They will stay until they have no choice, and then they still might stay even then if it means dying. Mass evacuations that are not ordered are a rarity and significant anomaly.

If disaster is happening everywhere there won't be an evacuation because there won't be anywhere to go.