Areial travel?

[ineffableone]

I always find threads like this rather odd, where someone posts thread with a question then never posts on the thread again.

Slugg posted this thread asking a question but has not come back to comment on any response he has gotten on this thread. Make you wonder.

[shiddymunkie]

I assume its because no one came up with the answer he was looking for, which was a little starry-eyed to begin with.

Price range: $5000 or less
Distance: More than 200 miles per tank

I mean, anything other than an ultralight is going to require a sports pilots license, which is like $3000 - $5000 in of itself...so that's out of the question. His only choice would be an ultralight of some type. A PPG is about 1/5 the price of the cheapest light-sports aircraft, and not only that, but is more fuel efficient to boot! Seems like his best (only) option.

The problem is, as inexpensive as PPGs are, you'll still have to go used to get one for $5000 or less...and that doesn't include training classes (which aren't mandatory, but highly recommended for obvious reasons). And because the OP's price range has restricted him to ultralights, any vehicle he chooses is going to be limited to a 5 gallon tank...and there's nothing that can be done about that. So basically he is looking for a vehicle that costs less than a decent used car, but gets greater fuel efficiency than a Prius...oh yeah, and also flies.

(no offense OP)

[shiddymunkie]

Here are some interesting tidbits I was able to find:

The congested nature of an area is defined by what exists on the surface, not the size of the area. While the presence of the nonparticipating public is the most important determination of congested, the area may also be congested with structures or objects. An area considered congested for airplane operations could be equally congested for helicopters. If an airplane flying over a congested area at less than 1,000 feet above ground level (AGL) is in violation of 14 CFR § 91.119(b), the area may also be a congested area for a helicopter conducting external load operations. However, the most important word in this concept is 'over.' Helicopters can operate over relatively small uncongested areas because of their maneuvering abilities.

(b) Densely Populated Area. Title 14 CFR §§ 91.313 and 133.45(d) use the term "densely populated" area. Those areas of a city, town, or settlement that contain a large number of occupied homes, factories, stores, schools, and other structures are considered densely populated. Additionally, a densely populated area may not contain any buildings but could consist of a large gathering of persons on a beach, at an airshow, at a ball game, or at a fairground. NOTE: While the presence of the nonparticipating public is the most important determination of congested, this definition also applies to structures, buildings and personal property. The congested nature of an area is defined by what exists on the surface, not the size of the area.

congested area' means in relation to a city, town or settlement, an area substantially used for residential, commercial or recreational purposes without adequate safe forced landing areas

Congested areas,as defined in JAR-OPS 3, are essentially any densely populated town or city where no open spaces exist to permit a safe emergency landing in the event of an engine failure.

There is no regulatory definition of 'congested area'. Administrative case law has determined what is congested on a case-by-case basis. [Case references are available on request]). The public should be aware that an area does not have to be completely free of persons or properties to be considered noncongested. Additionally, it is possible that small, noncongested areas as small as an acre or two, may allow aerobatics to be performed without violating 91.303's stipulations." DMH note: 91.303 prohibits aerobatics over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement or over an open air assembly of persons.

Another concept created by JAR-OPS 3 was that of "exposure times." Performance Class 1, Category A helicopters can fly over hostile and congested areas, but JAR-OPS 3 allows Performance 2, Category A helicopters to fly over hostile, non-congested areas with an exposure time, the length of which depends on a target engine failure probability of 5 x 10-8. This translates, in practical terms, to exposures ranging from a few seconds to several minutes (for a helicopter).

What is Uncontrolled Airspace? Uncontrolled airspace is the area in which air traffic control separation services are not provided. This area is usually below 1,200 feet above ground level (AGL). When nearing airports with established instrument approaches, the ceiling of uncontrolled airspace usually lowers to 700 feet AGL, and, if a control zone exists, uncontrolled airspace remains outside of the control zone horizontal limits, thus putting the airport within controlled airspace. In some geographic areas, primarily west of the Mississippi River, uncontrolled airspace ceilings are above 1,200 feet AGL. This is an exception, rather than the rule. The ceiling of uncontrolled airspace may be determined by reference to Sectional Aeronautical Charts used for aviation (see item h., Airspace and the Chart).

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere: An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas: Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas: An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters. Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section if the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the Administrator.

So, PPGs are not bound by any minimum altitude restrictions except when flying over certain areas like national parks and wildlife reserves. Additionally, there is no definition of "congested area", but the most prevalent factor is having enough time to make a safe forced landing (easy as pie with a PPG). Also, "The congested nature of an area is defined by what exists on the surface, not the size of the area" and "...the most important word in this concept is 'over.' Helicopters can operate over relatively small non congested areas because of their maneuvering abilities." Basically, the congestion of an area is not determined on a wide or general scale, but is based on the area directly beneath you (not off to the side, not in front, not behind, etc). PPGs are tiny, and like helicopters, are very easily maneuvered. With that being said, you should be able to fly just about anywhere you want so long as there aren't many people or structures in a 500ft bubble around you. 1 building here, a couple cars there, NBD.

Back to the issue of flying under a radar, since the vast majority of aircraft are not allowed to fly under 500 ft, I wouldn't think many radars are set up to detect objects at that level. Some are however, so as long as you stay close to the ground (like 50-200 feet) except for when necessary (when multiple structures/vehicles/people will be in your 500ft bubble) then you'd probably be ok, legally and otherwise.

[Blacksmith]

Back to the issue of flying under a radar, since the vast majority of aircraft are not allowed to fly under 500 ft, I wouldn't think many radars are set up to detect objects at that level. Some are however, so as long as you stay close to the ground (like 50-200 feet) except for when necessary (when multiple structures/vehicles/people will be in your 500ft bubble) then you'd probably be ok, legally and otherwise.

Again, most civilian radars can not and will not be looking there or be able to see that low. Military is a whole other thing.

[shiddymunkie]

Assuming you mean radars that can "look down", I guess the only reliable way avoid those would be to fly at an altitude roughly equivalent to (or just below) the height of the surrounding structures. Of course, to do this and stay legal, you'd need to scout a route where "congestion" never got within a 500ft horizontal radius of your PPG. Any major roads that would need to be crossed may require having to circle a few times until there is a break in traffic, you'd have to fly around major developments, etc.

This is all speculation of course, based off the above information. [/disclaimer]

[velojym]

Just to double-clarify, after reading earlier posts... Light Sport did not replace part 103. Ultralight aircraft may still be operated under the same rules as before, and Light Sport was created to offer more usable aircraft to folks who don't fly into controlled airspace and rarely take passengers, etc.
62 mph, if you're burning around 2gph, will get you over a hundred miles with some reserve, more if you're either in a motorglider (and know how to use it) or have a nice tailwind, and that's with the 5 gallon tank. In an emergency, the pilot makes decisions having to do with the safety of the aircraft and all aboard (in this case, just him/her), and if it's a matter of getting out of a dangerous situation, I don't think there'll be an FAA inspector really caring to ask you about the extra 5 gallon can you just strapped to your Affordaplane.
If the problem spans more than a couple hundred miles, I'd walk over to the FBO, and see if any rental planes are still sitting there. We were pretty casual about checking them out, and I could go out and fly whether anyone was in the lobby or not. We regulars knew how to get the keys, and Harry would be glad to see at least one of his planes out of harm's way.

[MacAttack]

Radar is the LAST thing I would be worried about.

As its been said before duck season is open.

Every yahoo in the area is going to shooting at the ONLY thing in the air. You must have some good stuff if you can afford a plane.

[shiddymunkie]

I understand the fear of feeling vulnerable if flying over other people in a disaster situation, but I am a little hesitant to believe that anyone with a gun is just going to shooting without reservation simply because they saw an ultralight fly by. I mean, for people to be at the point where they are looking to kill anything that comes around in order to take their stuff, that's a bit beyond a run-of-the-mill SHTF scenario -- that's closer to EOTWAWKI. In that sort of situation, I really wouldn't need to worry about abiding by FAA regulations...I would fly the ultralight any way I thought was best (such as at night).

Of course, all the talk about flying low was a tangent about avoiding radar detection. Most SHTF scenarios would not result in me having to do that, and so even in very dire situations, I would probably never have to fly low enough to where I was in danger of being shot at.

[velojym]

At a thousand feet or so, a small aircraft is extremely hard to hit, which is why even the military tends to send up a wall of lead rather than single shots.

[MaconCJ7]

I understand the fear of feeling vulnerable if flying over other people in a disaster situation, but I am a little hesitant to believe that anyone with a gun is just going to shooting without reservation simply because they saw an ultralight fly by. I mean, for people to be at the point where they are looking to kill anything that comes around in order to take their stuff, that's a bit beyond a run-of-the-mill SHTF scenario -- that's closer to EOTWAWKI. In that sort of situation, I really wouldn't need to worry about abiding by FAA regulations...I would fly the ultralight any way I thought was best (such as at night).

Of course, all the talk about flying low was a tangent about avoiding radar detection. Most SHTF scenarios would not result in me having to do that, and so even in very dire situations, I would probably never have to fly low enough to where I was in danger of being shot at.

People kill because it's something to pass the time now. Why do you think that will change in bad conditions People were shooting at Pararescue during Katrina. Thy were blatantly marked as savers of the free world and got shot at. What do you think folks will do to you as Joe Blow during a hazard?

Never think about how things should be. Think about how they have been, and you'll know how to prepare. Also, think about how they have been in your AO, not in someone else's.

*Edit* Too many mess ups to correct. Touch screen blows. If it can be read to make sense, that's how it's meant.