Rain Barrel System Questions

[ITZombie]

Okay I'm in the process of planning out our rain catch system. I'd like to have around 100 gallons per person as an end result of the catch system. Historically average rainfalls make that overkill, we should never have 3 months without water. And if we start due to some drastic climate shifting then this area will not be suitable for long term living anyway as it would be damn hard to grow enough food to survive.

Currently our system is fairly primitive, tarps and attachment points that we plan to funnel into drums on an as it rains basis. this has the advantage that it's low key right now. It has the major disadvantage that high winds, commonly associated with rain, can easily break the system down. UV will destroy the tarps quickly, within a year or two of leaving it up so you have to put it up as needed which means if it rains while you're asleep you've lost water.

So I want to go with the roof - gutter - barrel 'always on' system.

I'm doing the research on how other people are doing it and I see a lot of potential flaws with most of the systems out there. The vast majority have barrels that have been modified and joined so that a leak will cost you your entire supply. Most of them are connected by piping at the lowest levels, either on their sides or upside down or whatever.

To me that seems like a whole lot of joints and fixtures that if you get a leak at any point, you're draining your entire water supply into the ground.

One clumsy (or hostile) person could fall into your system and human nature means they're going to grab one of those handle looking pipes and crack, water flowing out at a fast rate.

So after seeing all those, my plan is to use vertical barrels and not drill holes in each one such that a leak will empty it. Just run the inflow into one and the other barrels are connected by tubing at the top and as each one fills up it then spills over into the next. The last barrel will simply overflow into the ground so that there's no air pressure issues.

Obviously using the water would be a bit more of a hassle as you'd have to pump the water out of each barrel in turn to use it. I think I'd add a third top hole (to the standard 2) that's plugged most of the time and then just open it up to siphon or pump water out.

But in the interests of water = life or death that seems like a hassle worth dealing with? I'd think having to move your pump to the next barrel in line as you empty your water supplies is worth removing the risk of a leak costing you all of it.

It also means you know exactly how much water you have left in your catch without having to add a sight level or use white barrels etc. because you're emptying your barrels one at a time.

Am I being too paranoid here? How are you handling your water catch system, those that have the ability to do so?

[duodecima]

Am I being too paranoid here? How are you handling your water catch system, those that have the ability to do so?

Max: The issue's not whether you're paranoid, Lenny, I mean look at this shit, the issue is whether you're paranoid enough.

(Strange Days, 1995)
I'm sorry, couldn't resist...

But no, I don't think you're being too paranoid, given what you want the water for. The thing I might consider, in your place, is a first flush diverter, so that first wave of dirt off the roof ends up in one barrel sealed off from the rest by a ball valve. In the worst case scenario, if your pump has broken, been stolen, whatever, you could "dip" out of the barrels, or tip and pour if they were mostly empty.

I am actually planning low-level spigots on my outside rain barrels, since they're primarily going to see use are rain barrels for yard and garden irrigation (biosand filter is on my to do list). But I plan on having about a month's worth of water inside, as backup. But it's arguably a trade off between present function and security of the water.

[Blacksmith]

I installed a gutter system on the roof of the barn because it was cheaper and easier than running a water line. It almost never freezes down here so we always have water. I built a six foot tower and this keeps the barrel out of the way and ensures plenty of flow. I hung a coil hose off of it to control the flow.

Can it be damaged? Sure. Do I care? No. I have several tanks in different locations. Unless someone is deliberately trying to destroy my water supply I am protected from simple accidents.

[Regulator]

Putting your barrel connections at the top of the barrel is best. Better to have two full barrels than 6 inches of water in eight barrels. Make sure your conection pipe is sized large enough. And have an overflow on each barrel.

There is no reason to not have a boiler drain (spigot) on each barrel to give you easy access to the water. If you elevate your storage barrels on cement blocks or other substantial stand you will have more pressure and may not need a pump to get the water where you want it. If that can’t be done you can use 12v solar pumps or even a 12v pump such as they use in RV’s, sprayers and the like. A non-solar pump could be hooked to a car battery and a maintainer and kept constantly charged from your household current but still be used from the battery if your power was out.

First flush diverters are very handy, simple to build and will save you a lot of headaches in having to clean your water later.

Oh, definitely do NOT use white or any translucent barrels. You will find that they will fill with algae within days.

One other option I’ll mention are water pillows. These are basically canvas encased bags that you can put in places where barrels wouldn’t fit for storing water. Under decks, through doors where barrels won’t fit etc. These have fittings built right in to attach inlets, pumps, vents, etc. They come in sizes from 100 gallon to 4000 gallon that I have seen. Just another option.

[2now]

First you don't say where you are, so how likely is it that the barrels might freeze?

Then how often do you plan on using the water and for what? gardening? Pets? the lawn?

[ITZombie]

Thanks everyone. I did have plans for a 'grit tank' at the head of the line as well as an initial large diameter pipe to catch the very first water with a plug for easy dumping. The shed I'm planning on putting the system on should be reasonably free of other... material as there are no convienent nesting spots above it. And it flies the American flag, between the lack of a good stopping point and the flapping of the cloth the birds seem to not care to land on it.

My thought would be that the last barrel in the line would be the cleanest water. The first tank could be used for cleaning etc and start with the last for drinking and work our way back up the line in a waterless situation.

We have enough water stored inside the house to get by for a few weeks with expected load out. And I plan on keeping some empty 55 gallon barrels handy to fill up with tap water if things look like we might be needing it. I can't keep these 'spares' filled because I don't have a place to keep them that they don't end up having to be moved on too frequent a basis or they'll be in areas that I don't want to subject to the weight. 55 gallons of water per is just too heavy to do that with.

We do get freezing temperatures for long enough periods every now then so called/long term that at times you can go ice skating on ponds. Those are rare years, especially these days (but climate change is a myth right?) but still a concern. In a store every drop situation, I'm not sure how we'll handle it. I would assume that the barrels are pretty prone to splitting from water expansion during a heavy freeze. That would mean they'd have to at least live in a non-freezing space during those times. Of course in a bad situation I'm not sure how much of the house would stay non-freezing depending on how we're heating it.

We use air pillows in our pool to help avoid cracking/breaking from the expansion during the winter, would that help at all in a barrel?

In normal times the water will be used for vegetable gardening in our garden and container fields. The shed already has a solar set up to run the lights and a couple of small fans during the heat and stereo equipment and lights for late nights by the pool. Fairly basic, a solar array from northern that feeds into 3 deep cycle batteries with an inverter etc. I have a couple of small fountain pumps that i use for solar heating for the swimming pool (a few hundred feet of black 1" pipe in coils laid out in the sun that recirculates the pool water) that I plan on using to pump the water for gardening. It's not a high efficiency system but it does extend the usable swimming season by a month or so, a couple or three weeks on each side. I don't enjoy cold water swimming as much these days.

Where the barrels will be stored doesn't get any sun if that will help for algae development? They'll be sitting next to a shed in a 3' space between it and a 6' wall. And just south of there is a 40' dogwood that blocks the morning sun and the noon and afternoon sun is blocked by the shed itself. IT's why I can't get anything to grow in there as it stands.

Should I assume that a small amount of chlorine should be dropped in to keep chlorine up a bit to help keep it clean?

[Blacksmith]

If I were going to drink my rain water I would filter and treat after getting it out of the barrel. Mine tends to get mosquito larvae in it that the chickens love and the llama do not mind but I really don't care for.

[duodecima]

Rain barrel water is basically grey water, assume there are coliform bacteria in it, which is why I'm planning a biosand filter (just have to figure where to put it...). Even then I'd boil before drinking.

No sunlight will prevent algae. My plan to try to avoid freezing/extend the rainbarrel is actually to paint them dark to match my house trim - there may be some evaporative losses, but the heat should also help them not to freeze. Hopefully cut down on the algae too...

[URBAN ASSAULT]

About the perceived problem of barrel destruction from freezing, I have two blue 55 gallon water storage barrels in the backyard. These are filled with treated potable water, and the contents are emptied and refilled every year on schedule.

I have had these barrels filled for almost three years now and have had no problems during the winter months, even when we had the occasional hard freeze period. The key is to leave plenty of expansion room for the frozen water. If you were to fill one to the brim and let it freeze I would think that you would have a split barrel in short order, but with that expansion room you are good to go.

BTW, to remind myself when the water needs changing I have the last fill date and when the next fill is needed written on a piece of duct tape and put on the barrel in a visible spot.

I am planning on a gutter/barrel catchment system for toilet flushing/garden use in the future too, but my current gutters are pretty bad so it will have to wait until I get new ones.

-urban

[ITZombie]

Good information, thanks!

For filtering we have multiple options, katadyn and micropur backpacking filters, ceramic water candles for making a berkey style filter and a solar distiller I made out of an old propane tank which can be powered by mirrors (acrylic / unbreakable), fresnel lenses http://www.scientificsonline.com/large-fresnel-lens.htmlor plain ol' wood or propane fire.

Drinking the rain water is a long term disruption plan, not something we'll be doing under any normal circumstances.

[Maast]

The most elegant rain cachment system I've ever seen (and intend to copy) is a string of ISO 250 gallon food grade containers with the overflow from one going into the next container down the line. The head container is elevated and each container is about 3 inches lower than the last.

The (filtered) water flows into the first, then when thats full it begins filling the next, and so on and on.

That way you're never vulnerable to all your water running out a busted pipe. For freeze protection you could spray foam over the exterior of the containers, it'd also keep the light out to keep the algae down.

[URBAN ASSAULT]

I like this idea, but from experience I can tell you that spray-foam insulation doesn't hold up well to ultraviolet rays from sunlight. It becomes brittle, dark yellow, and in less time than you would think it starts breaking off in small pieces.

It would probably be better to paint the poly containers with primer and then a good solid neutral color. Black might work but it will also soak up heat from the sun and promote algae growth.

So far I haven't seen any algae growth in my smaller blue water barrels.

-urban

[ITZombie]

I can confirm the spray on insulation doesn't like exterior at all. It quickly turns frangible to such things as hard looks.

In terms of using black barrels, I know the heat in those can get significantly high, at least around here in the summer months. HOw hot I'm not sure but my small car can easily hit 150-160+ degrees in the summer sun with the windows up and although not white it's also not a dark color. Would such temperatures help or hinder algae growth?

I do plan on getting a couple of black barrels just for this purpose, free hot water for washing clothes, dishes, people etc. I have some 4x4 sheets of plywood stored away that are covered in the reflective tape used to seal heating duct joints, not the best reflector but it's cheap. THey're part of our solar oven arrays and could also stand in to help heat water in the barrels.

I just need the darn barrels and money's too tight to pay the $80 a barrel online costs and I haven't been able to find any locally that didn't contain questionable chemicals at one point.

[Blacksmith]

Would such temperatures help or hinder algae growth?

Anything over 105F degrees will hinder growth. The temperature will vary a lot during the day. Ours bottom out in the morning after the dew is collected.

[rangefinder]

The June/July issue of "Home Power" magazine has an article on setting up a rain catchment system. The article is available online in PDF form here: http://homepower.com/article/?file=HP149_pg58_Hren

[NamelessStain]

If you want to make a filter, I posted a way to make on from a 5 gallon bucket here: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=89327&p=1986263&hilit=bucket+filter#p1986263

[Maast]

Its true that UV will turn the spray foam a deep orange and make it very brittle, to protect the foam you should paint it with a rubberized roofing paint, like that which is used to maintain RV roofs.

[2now]

Urban Assault, would you mind telling me what climate zone you are in?

I am curious how hard a hard freeze is for you.

Along the same lines, how much expansion space do you leave?

I was taught as a child that the way to keep barrels from splitting was to leave a rope of chain hanging down in to the water, it changes the rate and way the water freezes so that the pressure goes up the chain rather than out towards the sides. But I have never tried it and do not know if it is true.

[URBAN ASSAULT]

Urban Assault, would you mind telling me what climate zone you are in?

I am curious how hard a hard freeze is for you.

Along the same lines, how much expansion space do you leave?

I was taught as a child that the way to keep barrels from splitting was to leave a rope of chain hanging down in to the water, it changes the rate and way the water freezes so that the pressure goes up the chain rather than out towards the sides. But I have never tried it and do not know if it is true.

I'm in the Willamette valley here in Oregon, so our freezing temps aren't anything like they get in the Northeast. Even so we get the occasionally blast down into the 20's, and with the wind chill factored in it can be nippy.

As for expansion, I leave approximately 8 inches of space on top of the water inside the barrel. I have checked the barrels during the middle of winter, and they appear to be frozen solid.

-urban