S&W closes their range after felon with gun charged

[Trebor]

Here's some links to a couple articles about felons who illegally rented guns at the S&W Shooting Sports Center and who were then arrested on "Felon in possession" charges.

S&W has temporarily closed the Shooting Sports Center, probably as a result of the bad press.

I just posted these because some people still think it's OK for a felon to rent, borrow, or shoot guns because they think the felon isn't "in possession" of the gun as long as it's only rented or borrowed. This shows that is incorrect and poses legal risk to the felon and possibly the one who provided him with the firearm (especially if they know he's a felon).

As private citizen gun owners, we are limited in our ability to know about someone else's criminal history. We can't do NICS checks, etc, before letting someone shoot our guns. But, if you happen to know that someone is a felon, or is disqualified from possessing firearms for some other reason, you should not let them shoot or handle your firearms. If you do so you are placing both of you in legal risk.

If you are an instructor who provides loaner firearms to students going through the standard questions off a 4473 might not be a bad idea before supplying firearms.

Here's the really relevant part from the first article;


http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/ ... ra_ch.html

"Because Lora had been convicted on a drug charge in August 2007 that was punishable by more than a year in prison, his afternoon at the range triggered a charge of being a felon in possession of a firearm. He was snared along with 12 other suspects — including his two shooting partners — in an October 6 sweep by federal, state and local law enforcement agencies, including the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

Kakley’s affidavit cites a liability waiver and a range sign-in form as evidence of Lora’s presence at the Smith & Wesson facility. The affidavit also describes video footage from the range that allegedly shows Lora firing a .40 caliber pistol.

Later during that session, the affidavit reads, the video shows Lora returning to the front desk to obtain a silhouette target and to rent a 9mm pistol. After receiving the pistol and two boxes of ammunition at the range window, Kakley wrote, “Lora then occupied the firing lane, loaded the 9mm pistol, and began firing. Over the next approximately twenty minutes, Lora intermittently and repeatedly fired the 9 mm pistol.”

And the article concerning S&W closing the shooting center.

http://www.masslive.com/business-news/i ... _temp.html

[MacAttack]

I do believe that in some cases and states a felons ability to own and posses can be returned to them by a judge.

It all depends on the felony and location.

As this relates to the article, if the person had his rights returned to him through the legal process he could still end up in trouble with the ATF. They tend to do their own thing legally.

If the person lies on any form or is mistaken then I can't see how the range can be held responsible. The range can only take the word of the patron.
As for the law using information gathered at the range just to chuck them back into jail is stupid. The person at the range is obviously NOT taking the firearm home and has no intention of using it in a violent crime.


This whole situation screams. 'good thing they didn't bring their dog with them.'

[alptraum]

I just posted these because some people still think it's OK for a felon to rent, borrow, or shoot guns because they think the felon isn't "in possession" of the gun as long as it's only rented or borrowed. This shows that is incorrect and poses legal risk to the felon and possibly the one who provided him with the firearm (especially if they know he's a felon).

Very true. Possession is just that. And it can be stretched even further to basically include access. I sort of recall at least one person being prosecuted in which a husband was a felon and his wife was not. He was prosecuted because she had a legally owned (for her) handgun in the house.

I do believe that in some cases and states a felons ability to own and posses can be returned to them by a judge.

It all depends on the felony and location.

Also very true. There are ways to remove the felony prohibition. And the mechanics of the restoration can very greatly from state to state, and not all states have something like that.

[Trebor]

The whole "state level rights restoration" thing isn't applicable in this case. That's a different issue entirely. These were felons, who didn't have any sort of rights restoration, and one of whom later was charged with murder (a couple months after the target practice).

I'm not blaming the S&W range. They had no way to check other than asking and having the customer sign a form saying they aren't a felon. There is no way to verify the info and the customer can lie. (Running a NICS check won't work as those are to be used ONLY for purchases, not rentals, so the range would get in trouble for that instead).

My main point is this: The ATF and many local law enforcement agencies DO care about "felon in possession" charges and WILL investigate and prosecute something as seemingly innocent as someone target shooting at a range. Whether they "intended to use it to commit a crime" or not, they DID actually use it to commit the crime of "felon in possession."

Some people think that as long as the felon doesn't actually OWN the gun, they aren't "a felon in possession." That is not true. They are "in possession" if they can manifest control of the gun, including renting one at a range, borrowing one to hunt with, or even just posing with one in a picture. (There was an 18 or 19 year old women prosecuted after posing with a firearm on FB because she had a felony drug conviction).

This is more of a warning to forum members. If you take a friend shooting, it behooves you to ask if there is any reason they can't own a gun. Just a simple, "Just to make sure, you don't have any felony or domestic violence convictions or anything, do you?" would work. Yeah, it's embarrasing, but it's better to ask, especially if you don't know them well.

And, if you KNOW (or have a good reason to believe) someone is a felon, or is otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm (DV conviction, addicted to an illegal drug, etc) you should NEVER let them shoot or handle your firearms, for the protection of both of you.

As an instructor I go over the disqualifiers from the 4473 with my students before the range time and tell them if there is something on that list that applies to them, they need to leave the class before the range time, and I explain why. So far, no one has, but I have had a few potentional students ask me if they could get their CPL if they have a felony conviction when they first contacted me. I tell them, "Good thing you asked now, but no, and you can't take the class either."

This issue has come up on this forum a few times and some people have believed that a felon could still rent a gun, borrow one from a friend at the range, etc, and I just wanted to show that is absolutely not the case. I'd hate for anyone to get in trouble for not understanding the law and how it is applied.

[alptraum]

This issue has come up on this forum a few times and some people have believed that a felon could still rent a gun, borrow one from a friend at the range, etc, and I just wanted to show that is absolutely not the case. I'd hate for anyone to get in trouble for not understanding the law and how it is applied.

Oh. Lol, I have to admit that in my opinion anybody that would think that (that a felon can just borrow a gun and not be committing a crime for instance) is a complete idiot.

[Talon04]

I had this issue a while ago a former friend of mine was a convicted Sex offender and didn't tell me. The terms of his offender status he wasn't allowed to purchase or own firearms. He actually was able to get past a 4473 with a felony failure to report warrant out of Wisconsin. I turned him in when I found out, and they came and arrested him and shipped him to WI I'm still not sure how he got past the 4473 and the local police dept wasn't ever able to find a copy of it. I however had loaned him a couple of firearms for a range day once, I was rather ticked to find out about him as were most of his red neck work buddies.

[Bearcat]

I don't think one has to go through a background check to rent a gun at a range. As I recall, I didn't have to when I rented a full auto MP5 once at a range. If that's the case, I don't see why S&W is at any fault.

[MacAttack]

I know that the felon is breaking the law for just holding a firearm.


My real bitch about this whole type of situation is why in the world do they have the time to stake out private ranges but don't have the time to actually solve a few of those outstanding murder cases out there.

They must get a kick out of going for the low hanging fruit and talking it up like its a major case to their bosses and buds.


Now if the range called the cops and asked them to watch the joint because they suspected a patron was a felon then I'm all for it. Its their private property and they have the right to run it as they want.


I can't see S&W closing the range after they called the cops though.




It is a pretty well known thing around here though that sometimes a cop will sit in an unmarked car outside the range and run plates looking for people. But he's pretty easy to spot since hes the only one sitting in a car.