Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby phil_in_cs » Mon May 14, 2012 6:04 am

More on Greece... I am quoting at length here as the FT has a registration required thingi. It's free, but I know folks don't always like to sign up just to read a single item.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/175fcc8c ... z1uqAnZzQT

the tl;dr version is that polls show 80% of Greeks want to stay in the Euro, though they vote for people who's proposed actions will take Greece out of the Euro


High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/680d8532-9d11 ... z1uqC8fO6z

Fear grows of Greece leaving euro
By Ralph Atkins in Frankfurt
Eurozone central bankers have talked publicly for the first time of managing a possible Greek exit from Europe’s monetary union as stalemate in Athens talks on a coalition government raises the prospect that Greece will renege on the terms of its international bailout.
The comments by members of the European Central Bank’s governing council indicate that the risk of eurozone fragmentation is being taken increasingly seriously by the region’s policymakers.
They mark a significant shift at the ECB, which has previously argued that European treaties do not allow for an exit and that a break-up would cause incalculable economic damage.

“I guess an amicable divorce – if that was ever needed – would be possible, but I would still regret it,” Luc Coene, central bank governor of Belgium, told the Financial Times.
Patrick Honohan, Irish central bank governor, told a conference in Estonia at the weekend: “Things can happen that are not imagined in the treaties. ... Technically, it [a Greek exit] can be managed. … It is not necessarily fatal, but it is not attractive.”

Along with policymakers across the eurozone, the ECB has stepped up the pressure on Greece to stick to its internationally agreed bailout programme – and warned that reneging would lead to outside financial support being cut off.
Jens Weidmann, Bundesbank president, who also sits on the ECB council, warned in a German media interview at the weekend: “The consequences for Greece [of a eurozone exit] would be more serious than for the rest of the eurozone.”
Vince Cable, British business secretary, said the UK “must hope” the eurozone’s firewalls were strong enough to prevent contagion to Italy and Spain if the crisis spread from Greece and Cyprus. If not, he said there could be a “massive impact” on British trade.
In contrast to this weekend’s comments, last December Mario Draghi, ECB president, told the FT that a eurozone exit would result in “a substantial breach of the existing treaty” with incalculable consequences for the bloc.
Greece on Sunday night appeared to be heading for fresh national elections after last-ditch coalition talks chaired by the country’s president ended in mutual mud-slinging by conservative, socialist and leftwing leaders.
Antonis Samaras, leader of the centre-right New Democracy party, said the radical left coalition Syriza had blocked efforts to break the deadlock, even after a letter from premier Lucas Papademos was circulated at the meeting outlining Greece’s deteriorating fiscal position.
President Karolos Papoulias on Sunday was holding separate meetings with the leaders of four smaller parties that also won seats in parliament.
Analysts gave conflicting opinions about what would happen next. One conservative observer said it was still possible that some lawmakers from Independent Greeks, a rightwing splinter group, could return to New Democracy and give the two pro-euro parties a slim overall majority.
But a senior socialist said that Evangelos Venizelos, the Pasok leader, would refuse to serve in a government that did not include either Syriza or Democratic Left, a small leftwing party that used to be part of Syriza’s left coalition.
“We are clearly moving towards another election,” he said.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby phil_in_cs » Mon May 14, 2012 6:10 am

Paul Krugman @ the NYT

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0 ... mmerung-2/
Some of us have been talking it over, and here’s what we think the end game looks like:

1. Greek euro exit, very possibly next month.

2. Huge withdrawals from Spanish and Italian banks, as depositors try to move their money to Germany.

3a. Maybe, just possibly, de facto controls, with banks forbidden to transfer deposits out of country and limits on cash withdrawals.

3b. Alternatively, or maybe in tandem, huge draws on ECB credit to keep the banks from collapsing.

4a. Germany has a choice. Accept huge indirect public claims on Italy and Spain, plus a drastic revision of strategy — basically, to give Spain in particular any hope you need both guarantees on its debt to hold borrowing costs down and a higher eurozone inflation target to make relative price adjustment possible; or:

4b. End of the euro.

And we’re talking about months, not years, for this to play out.


Sources like ZeroHedge have been documenting #2 from all of the PIIGS group for many months, as people try to get ahead of a possible #3a. Net Deposits in Italy and Spain have been plummeting as moving moves to Germany and safety.

Also, I read yesterday but can't locate an article on why default worked from Argentina but would not work for Greece. The idea was Argentina is an export driven nation, with a trade surplus of over 3% of GDP. With that level of sales, you really don't need foreign credit as you can just pay cash (or beef, oil, wine...). Greece, however, has a trade deficit of 7% of GDP, and must have foreign credit to survive.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby phil_in_cs » Tue May 15, 2012 10:27 am

Greece will vote again in mid June, some 5 or 6 weeks after the May 6 election
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18076757

On the plus side, they did pay the interest due today of $436M Euros on some bonds, so they haven't defaulted yet.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Krustofski » Tue May 15, 2012 11:33 am

phil_in_cs wrote:Paul Krugman @ the NYT

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0 ... mmerung-2/
Some of us have been talking it over, and here’s what we think the end game looks like:

1. Greek euro exit, very possibly next month.

2. Huge withdrawals from Spanish and Italian banks, as depositors try to move their money to Germany.

3a. Maybe, just possibly, de facto controls, with banks forbidden to transfer deposits out of country and limits on cash withdrawals.

3b. Alternatively, or maybe in tandem, huge draws on ECB credit to keep the banks from collapsing.

4a. Germany has a choice. Accept huge indirect public claims on Italy and Spain, plus a drastic revision of strategy — basically, to give Spain in particular any hope you need both guarantees on its debt to hold borrowing costs down and a higher eurozone inflation target to make relative price adjustment possible; or:

4b. End of the euro.

And we’re talking about months, not years, for this to play out.

I.. I don't know. It's not an unrealistic scenario overall, and Krugman's knowledge and integrity are beyond doubt, but I trip over the whole "months, not years" thing. People have been saying this for, well, years.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby raptor » Tue May 15, 2012 3:36 pm

Talk about egg on your face:

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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby phil_in_cs » Tue May 15, 2012 4:19 pm

Bank runs starting in Greece, as people move out to avoid getting shafted on a reintroduction of the drachma
Greek Depositors Withdrew $898 Million From Banks Monday
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... hare_tweet

BY NEKTARIA STAMOULI

ATHENS—Greek depositors withdrew €700 million ($898 million) from local banks Monday, the country's president said, as he warned that the situation facing Greece's lenders was very difficult.

In a transcript of remarks by President Karolos Papoulias to Greek political leaders that was released Tuesday, Mr. Papoulias said ...


You have to pay to get the full story, and I don't pay so that's all I got...
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby SlobberToofTigger » Tue May 15, 2012 5:03 pm

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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby solrac7 » Tue May 15, 2012 6:06 pm

Seems that, like many other things in finance, the rumors start a self-fufilling prophecy. I bet that if I lived in Greece, I'd transfer a large portion of my money out to some other Euro country - especially since there is no exchange rate! I'd also be buying PM's just to have something on hand...

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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby SlobberToofTigger » Tue May 15, 2012 6:15 pm

solrac7 wrote:Seems that, like many other things in finance, the rumors start a self-fufilling prophecy. I bet that if I lived in Greece, I'd transfer a large portion of my money out to some other Euro country - especially since there is no exchange rate! I'd also be buying PM's just to have something on hand...

Cb

Fear is exactly what drives monetary failure. As soon as the common man no longer thinks his money is safe in the bank you get a bank run and all sorts of bad stuff happens including significant inflation.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby phil_in_cs » Tue May 15, 2012 7:16 pm

solrac7 wrote:Seems that, like many other things in finance, the rumors start a self-fufilling prophecy. I bet that if I lived in Greece, I'd transfer a large portion of my money out to some other Euro country - especially since there is no exchange rate! I'd also be buying PM's just to have something on hand...

Cb


Euros in hand ought to be safe. The govt there could change over money in a bank, but they could hardly tell people that paper / coin Euros were no good, since all folks would have to do to spend them is drive up the road a bit to the next country. I'd bet most money is coming out to either cash in hand or to get moved to German banks. I saw this weekend that London commercial property was suddenly in high demand - that's completely out of the Euro zone.
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Has the Greek Bank Run Started?

Postby Pilsung » Tue May 15, 2012 8:38 pm

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/has-greek ... un-started

While the long-term decline in bank deposits over the past 3 years has been well documented both on Zero Hedge and elsewhere, it is the most recent, acute post-election phase that has not gotten much coverage. Minutes ago Bloomberg sent out a notice that things in Greece may be on the verge of the final collapse. From Bloomberg: "Anxious Greeks have withdrawn as much as 700 million euros ($893 million) from the nation’s banks since the inconclusive May 6 election, President Karolos Papoulias told party leaders yesterday, according to a transcript of the meeting posted on the presidency’s website today. Papoulias said he got the information from the head of the Bank of Greece, the central bank, George Provopoulos, according to the transcript." While this was likely a negotiation talking point to facilitate the formation of the government, the reality as we now know is that there has been NO government formed, which now means that the bank run will only get worse. Needless to say, a Greek banking system which is now virtually shut out of any extrenal funding except for the ELA, where it has a few billions euros in access left, will be unable to deal with hundreds of millions in deposit outflows.

This may be the beginning of the end for Greece, just as Buiter and later JPM warned over the weekend.
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Greek Depositors Withdrew $898M from Banks on Monday

Postby Pilsung » Wed May 16, 2012 7:20 am

http://ml-implode.com/viewnews/2012-05- ... onday.html

That's a lot of liquidity out the door, and a lot of customers who no longer trust the Greek banking system. Not to mention the jobless who are raiding the last of their savings.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Pilsung » Wed May 16, 2012 7:27 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... epens.html

As Greece erupts, Italy is moving into the eye of the storm. Its economy is contracting at speeds not seen since the depths of the slump in 2009 as draconian austerity bites, greatly increasing the risk of social revolt and a banking crisis.
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Greeks Pulling Funds from Banks

Postby Pilsung » Wed May 16, 2012 8:11 am

All is well...crisis contained...no need to panic....

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/greeks-pu ... 08269.html

Greeks are withdrawing euros from banks, apparently afraid of the prospect of rapid devaluation if the country leaves the European single currency, minutes of Papoulias's negotiations with political leaders showed.

Central bank head George Provopoulos told him savers withdrew at least 700 million euros on Monday, the president told party chiefs.

"Mr Provopoulos told me there was no panic, but there was great fear that could develop into a panic," the minutes quoted the president as saying.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby phil_in_cs » Wed May 16, 2012 10:14 am

A different view point:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/german ... 2012-05-16

Germany will blink, and won’t let Greece exit euro
Commentary: Marshall Plan-style aid would give Athens time
LONDON (MarketWatch) — It doesn’t take long for an idea to become an accepted fact in the markets.

Six months ago, talk of Greece leaving the euro was seen as so unlikely nobody had to think seriously about. Now the ‘Grexit’ — as a Greek exit from the euro has been dubbed — is increasingly seen as a done deal.

Citibank rates the chances as high as 75% that Greece will leave the single currency in the next 18 months. The British bookmaker William Hill regards it as such as done deal it is no longer taking bets.

It’s not hard to understand why. The Greeks won’t accept austerity anymore. The Germans won’t give them any more money if they don’t take the harsh medicine that is being prescribed. Game over. The exit signs are flashing red.

There’s just one snag with that analysis. It isn’t going to happen. Germany will realize the risks involved, eat its words and come up with a mega bailout. Instead of a ‘Grexit’ we’ll see a “Grashall Plan” — as a Marshall Plan for Greece will quickly be dubbed — to reflate its economy and keep the euro staggering on for a couple more years, at least.

There’s no mystery about why the markets have suddenly woken up to the possibility that Greece quitting the single currency is suddenly a very real possibility. The Greek election decisively rejected the austerity plan imposed by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund. Unless it sticks to the plan, no more bailout money is forthcoming.

And the country is broke. Its budget deficit is still vast, and it has no way of raising money on the capital markets by itself. The cash to pay its bondholders isn’t going to be there. The police and soldiers and public servants are not going to get their wages. Without the next slug of bailout money, Greece is going to quite literally shut down.

With little sign of a new government being formed, there is now the prospect of another election next month. But there is very little evidence it will produce a different result. The Greeks voted against austerity in May, and will probably do so again in June. Nothing much has happened to change their minds. A fresh election might well result in an even more decisive anti-austerity majority.

There's no legal provision in EU treaties for a country to exit the euro. Despite that, a Greek exit from the single currency is being openly discussed. Dow Jones's Jenny Paris and Terence Roth pick through the implications. Photo: Getty Images

Meanwhile, German officials have started briefing that the groundwork has been done, and that a “Grexit” is now a manageable event. The German newspapers are suddenly full of briefings from senior government officials that everything is under control. Sure, they don’t want the Greeks to leave the euro, and no one is forcing them out. But if it happens, it happens. Maybe there will be some chaos in the markets. But there is a plan in place to make sure the country is ushered out smoothly — and the euro emerges otherwise intact.

It all adds up to making the ‘Grexit’ look like a done deal.

But it isn’t. The Germans are talking tough. When it comes to the crunch, however, they will blink, and deliver a Marshall Plan–style package to keep Greece in the euro.

Here’s why.

A ‘Grexit’ is a very high-risk strategy.

There is absolutely no way of knowing whether contagion to other countries can be contained. True, you can build firewalls around the banks, and try to make sure that any losses on the bonds are not catastrophic for the financial system. You can boost the Stability Facility, and make sure that the IMF is on standby to hose down any fires that start to break out. You can line up a few emergency summits to solemnly declare that even though the Greeks might be out, there is no way the Portuguese or the Irish are going to follow them, and certainly not the Italians or the Spanish.

The trouble is, you can’t really know how it will play out. No one has tried breaking up a single currency before. Money may start to flee out of every country at risk of coming out of the euro. Fiats may start loading up with bank notes and driving across the border to deposit Italian euros in German banks, and Seat’s with Spanish euros to go into French banks. It won’t make much sense to keep any cash in a country at risk. A full-scale bank run could easily get out of control, and blow up the best-laid plans in hours.

Next, the Greek economy may collapse completely, and society with it. A hastily re-introduced drachma will be worth nothing. Greece may not be able to pay for petrol for police cars or medicines for the hospitals. Law and order could break down. Floods of refugees may start to stream across the borders. No one has any real idea what will happen, but it could be very bad. And worst of all, the EU and Germany in particular, will get the blame for it.

There is, of course, an alternative. The Greeks can’t carry on with the austerity being imposed on them. No country can be expected to endure annualized falls in GDP of 7% or more and 50% youth unemployment for years on end. It simply isn’t acceptable.

But Germany and the rest of the EU could come up with a Marshall Plan-style package for Greece. Very little of the bailout money so far has gone to the Greeks. It has all gone to the bankers. A 23 billion euro package (the equivalent of 10% of Greece’s shrunken GDP) to reflate the economy would buy Greece some time.

It might not work in the medium-term; in fact, it will make things worse. But in a crisis, politicians work on very short time scales. What’s better? The risk of a full-scale catastrophe? Or a 23 billion euro bailout package that buys you breathing space?

Forget talk of a ‘Grexit’. There will be a mega-bailout — a “Grashall Plan” — instead. And when it happens, the markets will rally on the news.
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Chris Martenson: Get Ready for Another 2008 Style Crisis

Postby Pilsung » Wed May 16, 2012 9:11 pm

http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/get- ... isis/75466

Well, my hat is off to the global central planners for averting the next stage of the unfolding financial crisis for as long as they have. I guess there’s some solace in having had a nice break between the events of 2008/09 and today, which afforded us all the opportunity to attend to our various preparations and enjoy our lives.

Alas, all good things come to an end, and a crisis rooted in ‘too much debt’ with a nice undercurrent of ‘persistently high and rising energy costs’ was never going to be solved by providing cheap liquidity to the largest and most reckless financial institutions. And it has not.
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Nationalized Spanish Bank Plummets on News of Bank Run

Postby Pilsung » Thu May 17, 2012 7:25 am

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/nationali ... s-bank-run

The problem with bank runs is that once they start, they don't stop. And while the world was conveniently distracted by events in Greece, debating whether or not people were withdrawing money in droves (they were), the real bank run happened elsewhere, namely in Spain, where just nationalized bank Bankia moments ago plunged 30% and was halted following an El Mundo report that "customers had withdrawn €1 billion over the past week." In other words - a bank run (but whatever you do, don't call it that - it's not the politically correct and accepted nomenclature) which has sent shockwaves through Europe, pushed the EURUSD under 1.27, and bond yields in their traditional "Europe is open" direction - wider.
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JP Morgan Trading Losses Rise at Least 50% - NYT

Postby Pilsung » Thu May 17, 2012 7:37 am

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/05/16/ ... ast-50/?hp

The trading losses suffered by JPMorgan Chase have surged in recent days, surpassing the bank’s initial $2 billion estimate by at least $1 billion, according to people with knowledge of the losses.

When Jamie Dimon, JPMorgan’s chief executive, announced the losses last Thursday, he indicated they could double within the next few quarters. But that process has been compressed into four trading days as hedge funds and other investors take advantage of JPMorgan’s distress, fueling faster deterioration in the underlying credit market positions held by the bank.

A spokeswoman for the bank declined to comment, although Mr. Dimon has said the total paper trading losses will be volatile depending on day-to-day market fluctuations.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby dogbane » Thu May 17, 2012 7:51 am

John Peet of the Economist said in an interview this morning that the Greek economy is fairly insular. They neither import nor export much, and they represent about 2% of the Eurozone economy, so leaving the Eurozone will not have as big an impact on their economy as leaving might for a more integrated economy. The real threat, Peet says, is not to Greece, but to the idea of an immutable and permanent Euro. If Greece can/is allowed to/is forced to leave, which other nations might?
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby phil_in_cs » Thu May 17, 2012 8:44 am

This shows they have a trade deficit of about €2B / month, with oil/natural gas being the most significant import. GDP in 2011 was €240, so they import almost 10% of that.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/balance-of-trade
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Pilsung » Thu May 17, 2012 8:50 am

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-pos ... thucydides

The Wisdom of Thucydides (Greek general of old) regarding his observations of imploding societies during the Athens vs. Sparta war that destroyed the former greatness of classical Greece.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby dogbane » Thu May 17, 2012 9:07 am

phil_in_cs wrote:This shows they have a trade deficit of about €2B / month, with oil/natural gas being the most significant import. GDP in 2011 was €240, so they import almost 10% of that.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/balance-of-trade

Hey, who needs energy if you're stepping back to 3rd World status? :wink: There will be an olive oil lamp boom in Greece soon. Invest in the Greek lamp wick industry.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby phil_in_cs » Thu May 17, 2012 9:11 am

dogbane wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:This shows they have a trade deficit of about €2B / month, with oil/natural gas being the most significant import. GDP in 2011 was €240, so they import almost 10% of that.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/balance-of-trade

Hey, who needs energy if you're stepping back to 3rd World status? :wink: There will be an olive oil lamp boom in Greece soon. Invest in the Greek lamp wick industry.


They are an exporter of food, so they won't starve. Tourism will pick up some Greece will again be the cheap place to go for a vacation.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Jamie » Thu May 17, 2012 9:12 am

Started 2.25 years ago...current?

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