the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

[azrael99]

what do you guys think of those slug with buckshot loads ? are they effective for defense ?

[Einher]

what do you guys think of those slug with buckshot loads ? are they effective for defense ?

are you talking about integrated "buck-and-ball:" (illustrated by the image below)


or are you talking about alternating shells in the magazine between slugs with buckshot?

[azrael99]

the one you showed.

[Tperkins]

what do you guys think of those slug with buckshot loads ? are they effective for defense ?

are you talking about integrated "buck-and-ball:" (illustrated by the image below)


or are you talking about alternating shells in the magazine between slugs with buckshot?

I cant speak of that specific style of load, but what I have in my gun is similar.
Winchester PDX Defender

I would just use standard buckshot (probably the military rounds, as they've been said to be low-flash) for a home defense scenario, but the longest distance in my home (bedroom hallway to side door) is probably 50-75 ft, so I'd like to have a little more assurance that I can get that COM hit. Overpenetration would really only be a problem if the attacker got into my bedroom, and at that point I dont care about anything other than the threat. Your situation may vary, I do keep my gun loaded with the chamber clear and the firing pin decocked, so all I would need to do is rack the slide.

[Einher]

the one you showed.

IMO There is some potential in integrated slug-and-buck or buck-and-ball loads;
A single large mass single point projectile, surrounded by a small beehive of heavy (large caliber) shot.

Since, (as opposed to a traditional pump action shotgun) there is an increased level inconvenience when swapping slugs into an autoloading shotgun (which is exacerbated by detachable magazine shotgun designs), I've had a tendency to lean on integrated slug-and-buck or buck-and-ball loads in autoloaders.

Not sure how they stack up ballistically, but I've seen a few different types of them over the years.
The trouble I've always had with them was they were either expensive, in limited or short supply, or you had to load them yourself from scratch.

It's a shame they're not more prevalent, but maybe there's a reason.

[doc66]

We'll I wouldnt mind ~$150, but I'd be flexible if more money got me more value. I saw the Vang Comp Sights but those cost more than I paid for my shotgun.. I'd put a $500-1000 optic on a rifle, but not a shotgun.

Well, I guess I shouldnt specify ghost ring, as ideally I'd like an AR-15 style front/rear sight. This weapon is mostly home defense/target shooting, but is my only firearm so it can/might be used for hunting in a SHTF, or for fun as skeet. I like the fiber optic, but I'd like something tritium for the home defense side. I am, however, new to shotguns so I may certainly be wrong on some aspects. I havent been able to take it to the range yet due to time/age/location reasons (Most ranges that allow shotguns are 21 and over). I'm familiar with most AR-pattern rifles, Glocks, 1911's, Springfield XD's, and proficent at them. Little time with a M9 as well, but other than dummy round practice I havent used my 870 yet. I just know I want something that works for HD use, as the layout of our bedrooms and house in general isnt conducive to turning on lights without exposing yourself to a potential attacker, and the standard sights arent too good at HD use from the practice I've done in my house at night. Feel free to call me out on any stupid comments/ideas.

Also, on the Wilson sights, any idea on what a typical gunsmith cost would be to install those? I do have a top rail, so would anything along the lines of a picitanny sight and a front barrel clamp mount work, or is there too much potential of them coming loose/misaligned with the heavy recoil?

I see you live in the Socialist State of Illannoy. I’m sorry. Hopefully the NRA will soon get that problem rectified.

Okay, as I’ve stated before; I am not a fan of double duty firearms. My suggestion; get a HD shotgun and then save up and get a “hunting/fun gun” shotgun.

Ghost rings on a trap gun are kind of silly, ghost rings narrow your vision and forces you to see a small segment of the field down range for a specific reason: to place accurate fire on the target in front of you. A trap gun has a bead system to allow you to see more of the field down range and to lead the shotgun ahead of the target to place accurate shots in the path of the target.

Now you can set up a shotgun that will do both jobs, if you leave off the ghost rings sights, IMO. I’m sure that there are people out there who will jump up and down and say that they use their Mossy 6000 Defender Super Wingsaw with ghost rings on trap just fine. Good for them. They are not designed for that use.

I like the fiber optic sights because I’ve found that I’m not using the shotgun in totally darkness anyway. There’s usually enough ambient light sources to make that optic glow enough to catch my eye, and when using a flashlight with the shotgun—or any long gun really—for me the flash of the light washes out the tritium anyway. The glow of the fiber optics lasts longer to my eye. However, tritium sights do make the thing easy to find in the dark and they do catch the eye in near darkness. The newer ones are much better at not washing out the target; that is being so bright that the glow obscures the target. Much of this is personal preference.

The cost of installation is "how well do you know your gunsmith?" It could be $20, a cup of coffee, a bagel, and an hour of bullshitting while he installs them, or $50 while your shotguns sits languishing on a shelf while you sit at home with out it. Bolt on parts are okay if you are decent with a wrench and understand that not everything gets tightened as far as it will go and then some. Recoil is negated by loc tite to an extent. But make sure that the parts you get are quality parts.

Back to the two use shotgun. I strongly urge you to have two shotguns. They are not so expensive that you cannot afford two. Lots of used 870s and Mossbergs out there for $200.

Now on to the “ball and buck.” What is really the reason for it? Other than the legendary quip that “grandpappy used it in his old M12 back in the day when he couldn’t get ammo and had to reload shotshells with gravel and ball bearings.”

I don’t see that the ball and buck really gives you anything that using one, standard loading doesn’t already do. 30 meters for 00 buckshot and 75 meters for the slugs. You can use a slug inside 30 meters. Having three or four rounds of buckshot is not going to make that slug more effective on target. Adding three or four .32 caliber holes to the .72 caliber one you’ve just plugged through COM might be helpful inside 30 meters, but where do those .32 caliber holes go outside of that 30 meters? To me, ball and buck falls under the category of boutique rounds or specialty rounds. Kind of there with Devastator, DRT, bean bags, CN/CS, pepper balls, and dragons breath. I think that you are better served with either 00 buck or slugs. If you are going to run both, run a magazine of 00 Buck and back it up with reloads on the stock (or side saddle) of slugs and learn how to swap them out.

[UndeadInfidel]

I've gone trap shooting with ghost ring sights on my 870. It's certainly not ideal, but if you practice aiming with both eyes open it is doable. With a little practice I was hitting clays just as effectively as a friend that was using a sporting semi auto 12ga.

Again - Not ideal, but possible.

[Turtlewolf]

How well do I know my gunsmith?
Well, one of them the day I met him i gave him a bottle of Johnny Walker Red Label and I've gotten discounts or freebies ever since.
Not sure why..............
Realy.......................

The other I got a "bit" of free work because I "accidently" supplied him with some hard to find parts one day, good fellow but still won't discount ammunition.

[squinty]

My SLP Mark one can kinda sorta do double duty - it has traditional rifle sights that flip down (like on my 10/22) and a fiber optic front sight. With the rear sight flipped down, you can use it like a regular bead sight, though the rail crowds your lower field of view a bit. I've seen people (better skeet shooters than I) break clays pretty effectively with it, and I'm getting better using it even though it's too short for a real skeet or trap gun - and maybe a bit long for a home defense gun...ok now I'm kind of sad, maybe it's not quite a perfect fit for either role.
You're supposed to swap out the gas piston for lighter loads, but so far it's been pretty reliable shooting birdshot with the "heavy" piston installed.

WRT buck and ball, vs. slugs vs. buckshot - I've used Federal 00 with the flitecontrol wad for home defense, because for some reason I thought I wanted very tight patterning buckshot. Someone finally questioned me about that, asking:
1) why I wanted a tight pattern for home defense ranges - a tight pattern makes sense if you're taking longer shots, where a denser pattern means the shot's more effective further out, he said, but
2) for home D wouldn't I want a little bit of spread? If not why not use a rifle or a slug? and
3) even the most spready buckshot wouldn't open up very far at home defense ranges, so why bother with the expensive stuff?

I didn't have a good answer for any of those questions, except maybe Doc's point about where the shot goes after traveling 30' or so. Should I save money and by a different 00 load for home defense?

What are the ballistics of a big solid ball versus a cup shaped Foster slug? I thought the rim of the "cup" on a rifled slug acted to stabilize the slug in flight to some extent, like a badminton shuttlecock. Would this make a slug more accurate than a solid ball, or would the difference be negligible?

I noticed the Italian "buck and ball" load pictured earlier shot a large lead ball, whereas the PDX had a more typical rifled slug. What is the terminal effectiveness of a spherical projectile vs. one that's more squared off or that flattens and deforms a bit on impact? Would a traditional rifled slug, or a squared off slug that doesn't expand, like a Brenneke, make a bigger wound channel than a round ball?

[AK47Heaven]

So the bead on my Pardner (870 clone) fell off shooting slugs, I am going to get a fiber optic clamp on sight as a replacement.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting ... t105574680

Probably that one.Does the bead (which is now missing) secure the new sight somehow or will it clamp on securely even with no bead?

[squinty]

So the bead on my Pardner (870 clone) fell off shooting slugs, I am going to get a fiber optic clamp on sight as a replacement.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting ... t105574680

Probably that one.Does the bead (which is now missing) secure the new sight somehow or will it clamp on securely even with no bead?

I'd ask TruGlo, but apparently they just snap right onto the barrel. That's how this Thai gentleman seems to do it. He seems to have mounted the fiber optic sight several inches behind the bead on his shotgun. Couldn't find an English language video in the three minute Goole search I performed, they all showed red dot's or TFO or other truglo products.

If you look at about 1:29, he removes then replaces the truglo sight. You can see that there's a "V" shaped notch at the front of the sight mount, that presumably goes around the front bead to keep the sight from rotating to the left or right under recoil. This guy prefers to mount it flush with the clamps that go around the barrel and magazine tube. Apparently because it's too long to fit in front of the clamp.

[Tperkins]

We'll I wouldnt mind ~$150, but I'd be flexible if more money got me more value. I saw the Vang Comp Sights but those cost more than I paid for my shotgun.. I'd put a $500-1000 optic on a rifle, but not a shotgun.

Well, I guess I shouldnt specify ghost ring, as ideally I'd like an AR-15 style front/rear sight. This weapon is mostly home defense/target shooting, but is my only firearm so it can/might be used for hunting in a SHTF, or for fun as skeet. I like the fiber optic, but I'd like something tritium for the home defense side. I am, however, new to shotguns so I may certainly be wrong on some aspects. I havent been able to take it to the range yet due to time/age/location reasons (Most ranges that allow shotguns are 21 and over). I'm familiar with most AR-pattern rifles, Glocks, 1911's, Springfield XD's, and proficent at them. Little time with a M9 as well, but other than dummy round practice I havent used my 870 yet. I just know I want something that works for HD use, as the layout of our bedrooms and house in general isnt conducive to turning on lights without exposing yourself to a potential attacker, and the standard sights arent too good at HD use from the practice I've done in my house at night. Feel free to call me out on any stupid comments/ideas.

Also, on the Wilson sights, any idea on what a typical gunsmith cost would be to install those? I do have a top rail, so would anything along the lines of a picitanny sight and a front barrel clamp mount work, or is there too much potential of them coming loose/misaligned with the heavy recoil?

Smart stuff.

Well to be honest this would really only be a Home defense gun. Due to the cost, I honestly probably wouldn't do skeet/trap anytime soon, I'd want to concentrate funds on short range target practice for basic proficiency.

[doc66]

I've gone trap shooting with ghost ring sights on my 870. It's certainly not ideal, but if you practice aiming with both eyes open it is doable. With a little practice I was hitting clays just as effectively as a friend that was using a sporting semi auto 12ga.

Again - Not ideal, but possible.

I’m sure that there are people out there who will jump up and down and say that they use their Mossy 6000 Defender Super Wingsaw with ghost rings on trap just fine. Good for them. They are not designed for that use.

I told ya'll there'd be someone....

[UndeadInfidel]

I've gone trap shooting with ghost ring sights on my 870. It's certainly not ideal, but if you practice aiming with both eyes open it is doable. With a little practice I was hitting clays just as effectively as a friend that was using a sporting semi auto 12ga.

Again - Not ideal, but possible.

I’m sure that there are people out there who will jump up and down and say that they use their Mossy 6000 Defender Super Wingsaw with ghost rings on trap just fine. Good for them. They are not designed for that use.

I told ya'll there'd be someone....

Yep. I read that part and figured I'd be that someone.

I actually found the key to any amount of success with shooting clays with ghost rings is to shoot with both eyes open and treat the front sight like a bead. Seemed to work for me, at least.

[flsgear]

I don’t see that the ball and buck really gives you anything that using one, standard loading doesn’t already do. 30 meters for 00 buckshot and 75 meters for the slugs. You can use a slug inside 30 meters. Having three or four rounds of buckshot is not going to make that slug more effective on target. Adding three or four .32 caliber holes to the .72 caliber one you’ve just plugged through COM might be helpful inside 30 meters, but where do those .32 caliber holes go outside of that 30 meters? To me, ball and buck falls under the category of boutique rounds or specialty rounds. Kind of there with Devastator, DRT, bean bags, CN/CS, pepper balls, and dragons breath. I think that you are better served with either 00 buck or slugs. If you are going to run both, run a magazine of 00 Buck and back it up with reloads on the stock (or side saddle) of slugs and learn how to swap them out.

I know better than to disrespect you; you're a highly qualified and competent man at arms. So I didn't really want to talk in this thread at all. I unfortunately have to throw my 2c in opinion wise since I'm the one who originally posted the centurion buck and ball rounds; it probably doesn't hurt to understand my motivations.

As to combat efficacy - George Washington would disagree. And when you're only getting 2-3 shots per minute, you want that extra hit percentage but the punch of a large caliber round.

Of course, he's 200 years dead, but still; smoothbores were sort of en vogue back then. Buck and ball is really not designed for long range shooting. It's a ball, not a slug. This is important ballistically because roundball ballistics are way different than slug ballistics. They can be laser-accurate to 25 yards, sometimes 50, but after that it gets wonky pretty fast. This is, as you know, one of the reasons why shot in general really is pretty pointless beyond 35 yards. Buck and ball, in general, follows this trend. The large caliber slug *CAN* make hits past 35 yards... but sometimes it gets a little weird. Beyond 50 is really pushing it, but then again - this is a shotgun we're talking about here.

I load the buck and ball rounds for increased stopping power in standard home-distance ranges. I like the slug/ball in the front for the large hole. I like the buck for the extra "f*ck you", and marginally increased hit percentage (approx 3 inch spread @ 5 yards, approx the length of my main hallway). Also on an aside - this is generally the wife's gun, not mine. Knowing she gets less range time, I wanted something with some real punch (like a slug) with the higher hit % of shot. My personal bolt gun is an AK. When I finally get around to finishing the AR, that'll be hers and the shotgun will simply be the 'alternate'.

One important note about centurion buck and ball - it's not 00 buck. It's #1 buck. It tends not to overpenetrate like 00. Of course, that's kind of a mute point given you're shooting a gigantic ball of lead in front of it. But it does very well on ballistics gel (#1 buck).

I couldn't really find ballistics gel tests of this particular loading, but I have found this:



As you can see, it does pretty well.

The problem I have with swapping slugs/buckshot is that the recoil can throw you if you're swapping back and forth. I find with a shotgun consistently shooting the same load works best for me and mine.

Again, no disrespect intended. I merely thought I'd clarify why I ever said I used it as a home defense round in the first place.

*edit* PS: the centurion load runs 6 #1 shot - just saw your comment about 3-4 extra pellets.
Official stats on the load: 1300 FPS, has 1 ball dia of .650" and 6 balls of #1

[squinty]

Edited. Argumentative and sarcastic, more heat than light etc.

[Rev]

All I can say for certainty about the old style buck and ball loads is that I can't see it decreasing the damage of being shot with a twelve gauge in the confines of a home. I'd honestly prefer to see some extensive testing on it because it is an intriguing idea to bring back an old concept.

Let's see some ballistic gel tests, and shot patterns, and eventually real life data of bad people being shot with it.

Note, Rev does not actually advocate searching for bad people and shooting them to test this round.

[Greg Focker]

All I can say for certainty about the old style buck and ball loads is that I can't see it decreasing the damage of being shot with a twelve gauge in the confines of a home. I'd honestly prefer to see some extensive testing on it because it is an intriguing idea to bring back an old concept.

Let's see some ballistic gel tests, and shot patterns, and eventually real life data of bad people being shot with it.

Note, Rev does not actually advocate searching for bad people and shooting them to test this round.

Why not, it seems like that would decrease their ability to harm others within this survey paradigm...

[Rev]

I don't advocate searching for them. Some people might view that as premeditation. Should some threaten you or break into your home to cause you harm? Well, that's an entirely different story.

Unless of course you're in a state/country that for some unknowable reason looks unfavorably on an individual using lethal force to protect themselves.

[flsgear]

All I can say for certainty about the old style buck and ball loads is that I can't see it decreasing the damage of being shot with a twelve gauge in the confines of a home. I'd honestly prefer to see some extensive testing on it because it is an intriguing idea to bring back an old concept.

Let's see some ballistic gel tests, and shot patterns, and eventually real life data of bad people being shot with it.

Note, Rev does not actually advocate searching for bad people and shooting them to test this round.

what about good people? YOU MONSTER!

[doc66]

Heheh, I still advocate the 00 buck solution. They are available everywhere and are an industry standard.

If you are using ball and buck, and keeping within the distance of the standard 00 load, what exactly is the point other than a .72 caliber hole? The idea of putting rounds down range, especially lots of .32 caliber rounds, it to spread the trauma over a larger area of the COM to stop the actions of the attacker. A non expanding round, like buckshot and even .72 caliber ball, fails in that it does not add much to tissue damage. The reason so many died in the Revolutionary war and Civil War was not from the damage created by the bullet, but the subsequent failure of medical technology and care. Why did we have so few actually die in the recent ten year war? Because our medical knowledge and care is head and shoulders above everyone else.

With pistols and rifles--and shotguns--we advocate putting as many rounds down ranges as you can and on target that you can in order to put as many holes in the target as you can to maximize the trauma to the tissue and COM. Trauma to the boiler room is the key to stopping a fight, not the size of the hole necessarily, but the number of holes, which causes the body to shut down due to the inability to plug all the leaks.

The other problem with using specialty loads is if you have to shoot someone, how does it effect your court case? In areas where firearms are frowned upon to begin with, using a round that is nonstandard opens one up to a myriad of possible attacks by the legal system.

"Did you handload that to KILL better?"?
"Are those made especially for KILLing someone?"
"Isn't the name of that DRT round really DEAD RIGHT THERE?'
"What made you want to use something called a DEVASTATOR, was you intention to KILL the person?"
"Is a standard shotgun load not enough that you had to purchase a round that was designed not only to make a MASSIVE HOLE in the body but also follow it up with a SHREDDING load of buckshot to make sure you KILLed?"

Sometimes, we have to look at things through the eyes of the lawyers in order to determine the shrewdness of the choice we make. By using standard rounds; rounds that are advocated by LEOs and used by the same, we can lessen our battles on the legal front, should it come to that.

[Tperkins]

Heheh, I still advocate the 00 buck solution. They are available everywhere and are an industry standard.

If you are using ball and buck, and keeping within the distance of the standard 00 load, what exactly is the point other than a .72 caliber hole? The idea of putting rounds down range, especially lots of .32 caliber rounds, it to spread the trauma over a larger area of the COM to stop the actions of the attacker. A non expanding round, like buckshot and even .72 caliber ball, fails in that it does not add much to tissue damage. The reason so many died in the Revolutionary war and Civil War was not from the damage created by the bullet, but the subsequent failure of medical technology and care. Why did we have so few actually die in the recent ten year war? Because our medical knowledge and care is head and shoulders above everyone else.

With pistols and rifles--and shotguns--we advocate putting as many rounds down ranges as you can and on target that you can in order to put as many holes in the target as you can to maximize the trauma to the tissue and COM. Trauma to the boiler room is the key to stopping a fight, not the size of the hole necessarily, but the number of holes, which causes the body to shut down due to the inability to plug all the leaks.

The other problem with using specialty loads is if you have to shoot someone, how does it effect your court case? In areas where firearms are frowned upon to begin with, using a round that is nonstandard opens one up to a myriad of possible attacks by the legal system.

"Did you handload that to KILL better?"?
"Are those made especially for KILLing someone?"
"Isn't the name of that DRT round really DEAD RIGHT THERE?'
"What made you want to use something called a DEVASTATOR, was you intention to KILL the person?"
"Is a standard shotgun load not enough that you had to purchase a round that was designed not only to make a MASSIVE HOLE in the body but also follow it up with a SHREDDING load of buckshot to make sure you KILLed?"

Sometimes, we have to look at things through the eyes of the lawyers in order to determine the shrewdness of the choice we make. By using standard rounds; rounds that are advocated by LEOs and used by the same, we can lessen our battles on the legal front, should it come to that.

Very VERY good points Doc, too often much of what you said is forgotten, from the ballistics standpoint to the always forgotten legal aspect of our actions. Lawyers will pick apart every little detail, so you might as well give them as little to work with as possible.

OT: Well, the other day I decided I would put off looking for night sights just because I couldn't justify the cost, so I went out to get a solution to mount my Surefire G2 (with Malkoff Conversion) to my 870 for home defense and the low light training I'd like to start doing. Well, $45 later I have a barrel clamp tri-rail (got good reviews all around) and a Viking Tactics rail light mount for my G2. Works great, and I can reach the rear momentary switch with my thumb while my hand is on the slide. Anyway, while trying it out, I found an unforeseen benefit; it just so happens that where I have the light mounted, being the wide angle Malkoff reflector, the outside beam just reflects on the front white head enough to make it light up like a fiber optic sight. Given, this will only work when I have the light on, I was pretty ecstatic when I noticed it.

I'm going to evaluate the UTG rail over the next couple range trips and see how it holds up, it is a little bulky, so maybe after I get some more money set aside for training, I'll get a little bit lower profile light mount, like something from CDN or Mesa Tac. Also got a free TacStar sidesaddle, doesn't seem like the greatest quality, but hard to beat for free. I want a Mesa one eventually, but Ill wait till I build my savings account back up before I put anything more on my credit card.

Here's a updated picture.
The shells in the sidesaddle are Federal LE Low-Recoil Slugs, still loaded with PDX for the moment. Going to pattern some more stuff this Saturday, and see what stands.


Anyone have any Bad/Good about UTG or TacStar?

Also, would you guys agree that a barrel mounted light is better than a forend mounted one? I think it makes more sense but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Turtlewolf]

UTG is airsoft, avoid it.
TacStar, no idea.

[Tperkins]

UTG is airsoft, avoid it.

Yeah? Was not aware of that, just did some research of reviews on amazon and some forums and it looked good to go. While, I guess I'll replace it with one of those CDM or Mesa mounts in the future.