Would Niagara Falls make a good sustainable location?

[monkeyboy7]

For years I've been convinced that an aircraft carrier would be the most self-sufficient hideout. All of that changed when a friend brought up that they only have about 2 months worth of food and rely heavily on shipments. Now I'm thinking Niagara Falls would make the best zombie refuge.

First of all, it's in an area known for food production (the Niagara Peninsula). Better yet, it has farmers who grow food for a living. Why learn how to grow crops when you have a bunch of talented farmers nearby?

Second, up to half of the water going over the falls can be diverted for power generation. This way, Niagara Falls is electrically self-sufficient; the power grid won't go down in the case of a zombie apocalypse. Oh, and the power source is renewable.

Third, the area is full of supplies during the tourist season. It could get ugly with so many people there, but you'd probably be fine if you moved away from the city center. On the other hand, some buildings in Niagara Falls would make excellent observation decks.

Tactically speaking, Niagara Falls has a lot of chokehold points. The entire peninsula can only be entered through the east or west sides. The Niagara Gorge separates the US from Canada. Any bridges used to cross the river feeding into Niagara Falls would be fairly easy to defend. There's a border checkpoint less than a kilometer away. The falls themselves are another obvious obstacle.



Anyway, am I onto something here? I'd love a critique if possible!

[RickOShea]

Second, up to half of the water going over the falls can be diverted for power generation. This way, Niagara Falls is electrically self-sufficient; the power grid won't go down in the case of a zombie apocalypse. Oh, and the power source is renewable.

If the NPCC regional grid is like most of the others in North America, then many of the generation plants in the NPCC will be tied together thru the transmission line "grid". That way, if one generation plant has a catastrophic failure, the other plants on the "grid" can put their reserve capacity on-line to, hopefully, keep there from being rolling black-outs or a system-wide cascade failure.

So, you're gonna need a whole lot of transmission linemen and system engineers to go out and operate the "grid" open points and interconnects to isolate the Niagara Falls plant to the immediate area.....And most likely to restart the plant, since it will have probably tripped every downline breaker and recloser within 500 miles when the other plants went "off line" and the remaining ones got over-loaded.

Then you'll need a bunch of distribution linemen and engineers to go out and "re-start" all the individual substations and circuits to get the 120/240 to your house.

Then you'll have to start thinking about all the personnel, equipment, and replacement parts & materials you'd need to maintain it all.

Just sayin'.

[monkeyboy7]

Good point. It would be dangerous to send out a crew to operate all of the power nodes (assuming you could find a crew in the first place). Even if this worked, the power grid would have to be very local.

On the other hand, you'd still have a functioning power plant to meet all of your needs. With the right crew, I bet you could put all of that power to use. Electric fencing immediately comes to mind.

I didn't know power plants could get overloaded. Isn't there some sort of automatic override that prevents this?

[maldon007]

Where is the link for the new folks who think going somewhere they don't already own/have interst in, is a good plan?

Anyway, we have come to some conclusions here, one being- To prepare is to legally GET the stuff/property you may need, BEFORE the emergency... Weather it be economic, social or... zombies.

Another fact- People who live in a "good place" will most likely still be there, since it is after all, a good place. And even if those people are somehow gone, the people who live nearby will probably beat you there... Bottom line, get your own BOL, as in purchase it.

[RickOShea]

I didn't know power plants could get overloaded. Isn't there some sort of automatic override that prevents this?

Most of them have computer controlled automatic systems that can cut the plant loose from the "grid".....which will exacerbate the problem for the remaining plants that are still on the grid. Hence the "cascade effect" that starts at one point, and rolls along until whole sections of a regional grid get knocked out.

From the 2003 black-out, it looks like the Niagara Falls area may be able to isolate itself under certain circumstances (we have similar isolation capacity in the southern and northern halves of my state) but I wouldn't count on it to work in every situation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003

Don't think of the North American power grid as a granite statue that you clean the pigeon poop off of from time-to-time. Think of it as a critical care patient on life support in a hospital.....And there's a half million doctors and nurses working all day long (and sometimes all night) 24/7/365 to keep it alive.

[mantis]

For years I've been convinced that an aircraft carrier would be the most self-sufficient hideout. All of that changed when a friend brought up that they only have about 2 months worth of food and rely heavily on shipments. Now I'm thinking Niagara Falls would make the best zombie refuge.

Plus there is also the issue of you not being able to own an aircraft carrier.

First of all, it's in an area known for food production (the Niagara Peninsula). Better yet, it has farmers who grow food for a living. Why learn how to grow crops when you have a bunch of talented farmers nearby?

Farming isn't a skill that you can learn overnight. If you are serious about it...you had better buy your farm now....don't even think about going down there in the event of some sort of apocalypse and simply taking over some chunk of land. It won't happen. Those same farmers own a lot of firearms and they will make good use of them.

Second, up to half of the water going over the falls can be diverted for power generation. This way, Niagara Falls is electrically self-sufficient; the power grid won't go down in the case of a zombie apocalypse. Oh, and the power source is renewable.

Others have covered this nicely but I would add that you wouldn't be diverting anything without a whole lot of expertise, not to mention equipment and permission.

Third, the area is full of supplies during the tourist season. It could get ugly with so many people there, but you'd probably be fine if you moved away from the city center. On the other hand, some buildings in Niagara Falls would make excellent observation decks.

Supplies that you don't own and have no claim to and that would be picked clean within hours of days of some sort of apocalypse. The Skylon tower is pretty much the pinnacle of fail as a BOL unless of course you presently own the Skylon tower and can prep it in advance.

Tactically speaking, Niagara Falls has a lot of chokehold points. The entire peninsula can only be entered through the east or west sides. The Niagara Gorge separates the US from Canada. Any bridges used to cross the river feeding into Niagara Falls would be fairly easy to defend. There's a border checkpoint less than a kilometer away. The falls themselves are another obvious obstacle.

You would need a large force to secure and defend the niagara penninsula...what makes you think you could muster such a force or get one to do your bidding?

Anyway, am I onto something here? I'd love a critique if possible!

Not at all. Check out the bugging out to Wal-Mart thread. It covers this sort of thing nicely and explains why prepping means actually preparing for disaster and not planning on stealin/looting what you need afterwards and why planning on bugging out to some place that you don't own or control would be an epic fail as far as prepping goes.

[canuckdiver]

I live close to this area, and another concern that I have is the number of nuke generating plants that are located on the great lakes. In the event of a total SHTF situation, lake erie and lake ontario could become badly contaminated hotspots.

Anybody have any info for or against this?

[Arkane]

One of my amigos has a boat on Erie and he's looked into it. Supposedly there is an automatic system in place with some redundancy that shuts the reactors down before they go critical. So I guess you aspiring pirate lords of the great lakes have nothing to fear

[Tater Raider]

Going by history, if the engineers had let the automated system at 3 Mile Island do its thing and not constantly override it, the reactor would have safely shut itself down.

[maldon007]

Which is exactly why those great lakes systems will fail one day, engineers who think they know better than those stupid systems

[dukman]

There is that one show that talks about what would happen if man disappeared from the face of the planet.. they did one on the Niagra. I would suggest watching it

[Meleri]

The show also did a part on the hover dam. The question was how long after there were no more people would the hover dam keep producing power. One of the problems with the dam is there are some little critters that start to build up in some of the tubes. The Hover dam would fail 6 months with out constant care and cleaning of these tubes.

[Phoenix David]

For years I've been convinced that an aircraft carrier would be the most self-sufficient hideout. All of that changed when a friend brought up that they only have about 2 months worth of food and rely heavily on shipments. Now I'm thinking Niagara Falls would make the best zombie refuge.

Plus there is also the issue of you not being able to own an aircraft carrier.

Who says you can't own your own aircraft carrier?

[Tater Raider]

For years I've been convinced that an aircraft carrier would be the most self-sufficient hideout. All of that changed when a friend brought up that they only have about 2 months worth of food and rely heavily on shipments. Now I'm thinking Niagara Falls would make the best zombie refuge.

Plus there is also the issue of you not being able to own an aircraft carrier.

Who says you can't own your own aircraft carrier?

You can, but good luck keeping it running all by your little lonesome. And unless you are Bill "Monopoly is just a game - I'm trying to rule the world" Gates good luck being able to afford the crew you need to keep it running.

[TheGunslinger]

Niagara falls is right next to Buffalo, NY and Toronto in Canada.

Millions of people, lots of whom are poor. Horrible, terrible weather and long, cold winters.

I wouldn't bug out to Niagara falls in a pink fit, you'd be eaten alive in moments.

[AR15Tac]

Niagara falls is right next to Buffalo, NY and Toronto in Canada.

Millions of people, lots of whom are poor. Horrible, terrible weather and long, cold winters.

I wouldn't bug out to Niagara falls in a pink fit, you'd be eaten alive in moments.

i agree 100%.

[hootn]

one thing to remember about the area around the falls is that there is a lot of chemical plants in that area, some mean nasty stuff.

[Canadian Guy]

For years I've been convinced that an aircraft carrier would be the most self-sufficient hideout. All of that changed when a friend brought up that they only have about 2 months worth of food and rely heavily on shipments. Now I'm thinking Niagara Falls would make the best zombie refuge.

Well, to start with I know the Niagara Region very well as I live pretty much right in the middle of it in a rural area and until about 3 months ago my work office was in Niagara Falls until being moved to St.Catharines. Niagara Falls, Ontario is a city of 82,997 (2011 stats), right across the Niagara River is Niagara Falls, New York pop.50,193. Niagara Falls, Ontario is in the geopolitical "Niagara Region" (often referred to as Niagara hence the confusion with Niagara Falls) that is a mix of small-medium cities with a fair bit of rural/farmland between them with towns/villages sprinkled about. The Niagara Region has a population of 431,346 (2011), has a land area of 1,854.25 km2 (715.93 sq mi) making an average population density of 232.6/km2 (602/sq mi)-not great but of course there are dense urban areas vs rural.

Bottom line: The city of Niagara Falls would not be a good BOL in a SHTF scenario if just for the reason it is a city of 82,997 with the bonus of having thousands and thousands of tourists who would be stuck in the city in a catastrophic scenario which would be an instant added mess in itself! Niagara Falls has always been a high value civilian nuclear target due to its immense hydroelectric power plants on both sides of the border and don't forget the USAF airbase right across the river in Niagara Falls, New York which is home to a USAF airlift squadron which is another likely target in the event of a nuclear exchange. Of course the probability of a nuclear exchange between the west and Russia/China/? is likely low,...right (?)

First of all, it's in an area known for food production (the Niagara Peninsula). Better yet, it has farmers who grow food for a living. Why learn how to grow crops when you have a bunch of talented farmers nearby?

There is a lot of great farmland in Niagara and we have one of the most mild areas in Canada as far as weather, fruit growing and grapes for wine is what the area is famous for but in the event of a SHTF scenario I'm thinking those well armed farmers are not going to take lightly to outsiders coming in to share in their produce. That includes me as I would be withdrawing with family to one of our family farms

Second, up to half of the water going over the falls can be diverted for power generation. This way, Niagara Falls is electrically self-sufficient; the power grid won't go down in the case of a zombie apocalypse. Oh, and the power source is renewable.

As mentioned the "Niagara" power plants including the one in St.Catharines would face the same problems as other grids in the event of things like a CME, EMP, and other catastrophic events. However the local grid did stay on during the great 2003 power outage because it was somewhat isolated in the larger surrounding grid.

Third, the area is full of supplies during the tourist season. It could get ugly with so many people there, but you'd probably be fine if you moved away from the city center. On the other hand, some buildings in Niagara Falls would make excellent observation decks.

No, in the event of a SHTF scenario Niagara Falls would quickly descend into chaos probably due to the thousands of desperate tourists who are spread all over the city due to the hotels/motels being distributed all over the city. In the event of a nightmare nuclear exchange Niagara Falls would probably be incinerated.

Tactically speaking, Niagara Falls has a lot of chokehold points. The entire peninsula can only be entered through the east or west sides. The Niagara Gorge separates the US from Canada. Any bridges used to cross the river feeding into Niagara Falls would be fairly easy to defend. There's a border checkpoint less than a kilometer away. The falls themselves are another obvious obstacle.

Yes, Niagara is bordered by Lake Ontario to the north, Lake Erie to the south and the Niagara River to the east which is the border line to the USA. There are 3 bridges across the river to the USA one of which is essentially in downtown Niagara Falls. As mentioned you need a significant security/military force to "secure" them and then from what threat? Americans trying to sneak into Canada for work or maple syrup?

Anyway, am I onto something here? I'd love a critique if possible!

Hopefully I have provided some insight. Rural Niagara would be a not bad BOL in a SHTF scenario but I would want to be well away from the larger urban areas of Niagara Falls, St.Catharines and Welland. Rural Wainfleet, Pelham, West Lincoln and Lincoln would be my choices.

[Canadian Guy]

Niagara falls is right next to Buffalo, NY and Toronto in Canada.

Millions of people, lots of whom are poor. Horrible, terrible weather and long, cold winters.

I wouldn't bug out to Niagara falls in a pink fit, you'd be eaten alive in moments.

Buffalo is nearby being about 35 Km's southeast of Niagara Falls across the river from Fort Erie, Ontario. For those that don't know Buffalo has actually been engulfed by the "Zombie apocalypse" years ago so we have managed to prevent the spread of it across the border so far
Toronto is about 130 Km's driving distance and is on the other side of Lake Ontario (good thing!), Hamilton is actually closer (80 Km) and has a population of 520,000 which would be more of a threat of the "golden horde" coming from WTSHTF IMO.

Not bad winters for Canada in the area, quite mild for Canada but I would imagine arctic like compared to what you are used to

Agree 100% with you on Niagara Falls but rural Niagara is a different situation.

[mantis]

One HUGE problem with the Niagara region if you don't already own or lawfully occupy land there - it is a very well armed part of the province of Ontario and most of those landowners would not take very kindly to "city folk" comming down and trying to occupy their land. I am a member of a gun club (Silderdale) right there in Lincoln and there are hundreds and hundreds of members of that club who live in the immediate area.

[Canadian Guy]

One HUGE problem with the Niagara region if you don't already own or lawfully occupy land there - it is a very well armed part of the province of Ontario and most of those landowners would not take very kindly to "city folk" comming down and trying to occupy their land. I am a member of a gun club (Silderdale) right there in Lincoln and there are hundreds and hundreds of members of that club who live in the immediate area.

Yes, Niagara does have one of the higher firearms ownership levels for Ontario. I'm also a member of Silverdale Mantis, great range and only minutes from where I live so I keep well practiced There is not much of any "public" land such as in Northern Ontario and its Crown Land so you are right that local landowners wouldn't take kindly to an unruly "golden horde" streaming into the countryside from urban areas. I do believe in a catastrophic SHTF scenario that would occur due to the many farms with livestock, orchards, corn fields, etc... in rural Niagara. Things could get ugly especially if members of the "golden horde" are also armed

[mantis]

One HUGE problem with the Niagara region if you don't already own or lawfully occupy land there - it is a very well armed part of the province of Ontario and most of those landowners would not take very kindly to "city folk" comming down and trying to occupy their land. I am a member of a gun club (Silderdale) right there in Lincoln and there are hundreds and hundreds of members of that club who live in the immediate area.

Yes, Niagara does have one of the higher firearms ownership levels for Ontario. I'm also a member of Silverdale Mantis, great range and only minutes from where I live so I keep well practiced There is not much of any "public" land such as in Northern Ontario and its Crown Land so you are right that local landowners wouldn't take kindly to an unruly "golden horde" streaming into the countryside from urban areas. I do believe in a catastrophic SHTF scenario that would occur due to the many farms with livestock, orchards, corn fields, etc... in rural Niagara. Things could get ugly especially if members of the "golden horde" are also armed

Silverdale is the best. I used to shoot at Range Burlington but gave it up after I discovered Silderdale a few years back. Seth is a great guy. Bought a lot of guns from him.

[eugene]

I think the problem you'll run into is its huge, you'll need a dedicated crew just for maintenance and operation.
Scale down and look more local, like your state level. There are a lot of state parks around that have man made lakes made by the army corp of engineers and have spillways and such that you could install a small generator but are not large enough for the current electrical grid.

[HonkyTonkTN]

Having to live in the Niagara farm country region for a good deal of my life, it would be smart to pack your bug out bags and flee when SHTF.

During the Toronto ice storm of 1998, there were several million people without power for 4-months ... In the WINTER. This wasn't isolated to Toronto. Much of the areas all around the Great Lake of Ontario was hit. Both the Canadian side and the New York state side. The Niagara power on the US side was down as well. Only the Barker Coal burning plant stayed on-line. The sub-stations from that plant were switched off preventing power to flow outside of their service region. The GM plant with it's coal plant and another in the Falls area were brought on-line to supplement the rolling brown-outs and black-outs. It was a true test of the area should Y2K hit as a problem. It woke many up to the problems in the areas infrastructure. That structure can not provide the region locally in any disaster. NYS is one of the highest for taxes, fees, property taxes, school taxes and just more taxes. It's not called the Empire Taxation State for nothing. The saying of "Escape From NYC" applies to the state itself.

NYS has a limited growing season. Solar power generation is a joke since the cloud cover is often the case. Wind generation is very limited to the Spring and Fall seasons. The Lake effect snow often paralysis Buffalo, Erie, Dunkirk, Niagara for weeks.

Also, the water flowing to the Niagara region is the dirtiest of the Great Lakes from Lake Erie. Just the flowing trash alone should turn anyone off.

Besides, Niagara is also known for Love Canal. The largest toxic waste dump in this side of the Mississippi. Al Gore Sr. and his companies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal

As for the Niagara region being farmers and growers, sure thing. The amount of pesticides and Monsanto induced crops out that way has the area in it's grips.

THE Niagara Falls Air Force base often has troop deployments sent out from there. Living amongst the flight path for many years, we often seen various stealth planes and troop cargo aircraft overhead. The flight path area is often heavily policed by the military and FEMA.

Glad our family has escaped from the Niagara region. It's the last place on earth to be when SHTF.