What Guns Would You Avoid Buying Based on Performance?

[Redfred16]

Any Beretta handgun. I heard the Storm is decent, but every M9(aka 92F) I was ever issued were such POS theres no way I'd even try one.

The 92 is a great gun very reliable. Own a couple shot several more never had any issue.

Every single one I had issued to me was horrible, multiple feedding and ejection issues. A friend went through the Wisconsin police academy and had to buy a 92F, it didn't have the misfire and ejection issues but the trigger pull was horrid and had issues with the magazine releasing.

I just tell people of my issues and let them decide.

[AKFTW]

I feel like the M9 must not age well- lots of civilian owners are pretty satisfied with theirs, but .mil users who have armory-issued pistols that have been run hard and seen a lot of rounds over the years tend to hate them.

[Turtlewolf]

Does anyone have any other information on this?

Dave and Phil_in_CS use either grease, or a mixture of grease and oil.

ETA: I see TDW beat me to it with even more examples.

The ONLY problem I ever had with White lithum grease in any gun was a .22 semiauto when it was about 20 degrees fahrenheit. It just thickened up too much for the bolt to overcome with only a .22 driving it back.

I have used it with unflinching success on a .32 pistol and up though, and I'm maybe 10% of the way through the caulking tube of the stuff I bought for $4 3 years ago.

I was asking about the AR15 specificaly, I've used lithium before and love it, experimented with graphite and it seems gtg as well on most things.
With the AR, however, it has always been told to me over the years to oil it liberaly and oil only.
It is good to know that other types of lubrication (which are better IMHO) also work on the plkatform and I think this information needs to be put in the face of the public.
I still won't be using one personaly but this does change the recomendations I give new shooters a bit and I thank you all for your honest answers.

[ace of shades]

I think the one major thing to take from this thread is the same thing my hunters safety drilled into my head about safeties on guns

"they are mechanical devices - that CAN and WILL fail" it just all depends
AR vs AK, Ford vs Chevy, and any other verses thread. It is six to one and a half dozen to the other. It depends on the year the weapon made, the ammo in it, the this and and the that.

You can go down the list of people hating Keltecs I never had a problem with the ones I have owned and been around, I can clearly see where they could easily turn into an expensive fist pack though.

My Walther P22 is an ammo eater. In the thousands of rounds I have put through it I have only had two jambs, a FF and a FE, and that was the other day. Same clip, one right after the other. First one was the failure to eject, It seemed it didn't have enough oomph to kick it out all the way and got stuck in the port; cleared that shot the next round and the slide got hung up on the next round - cleared that and put two more clips though it. The problem I believe was the federal ammo I was shooting. In my 10/22 the box of federals I got didn't have enough to them to cycle the action. I picked through my ammo can of 22's and got the remington gold tips out and everything worked just fine. I have heard the exact opposite to that as well, remington = shit, federals are the only thing to shoot.

the only thing I can personally off is what I posted earlier though
taurus and the AR7 are shit

[searching4itnc]

I'm not gonna argue, but I was issued the Beretta 96 .40 S&W. From 1996 to about 2009. I loved it. It wasn't the most tactical pistol to be issued, but no one on my department had any issues with any of the guns we were sent. Beretta recommended that the guns be examined by an armorer every five (5) years and no one told anyone in my agency. We had them for just over 12 years and I loved mine, never one problem. Of course, I love my new Glock 22 also.

[Fire]

Have had good luck with most surplus pistols, the exception being my enfield .38- the hammer has a spring aligning it properly, and it is fubar, resulting in a lot of ftf malfs,-

on the other end of it, I became a believer in torture testing this past weekend, carried a sidearm at a security gig, a concert, specifically a rave/paint party thing- they did, to the credit of the crew, try to not drench the security staff in paint, but it was a lost cause by the end, and several of the guys got their duty weapon slathered with paint despite best efforts- brought home the idea of good grips under any condition and a bomb proof reliable design..... Those are available in surplus arms, I carried a BHP with no fear of either, but grips and accessories and such are not always so easy, and if something breaks, it might be hard to impossible to find another

another problem weapon I had was a rough rider revolver- yeah, they are cheap, but they do not , judging by the one I got, age well, as with high round count, about EVERY thing failed

[Czechnology]

Does anyone have any other information on this?

Dave and Phil_in_CS use either grease, or a mixture of grease and oil.

ETA: I see TDW beat me to it with even more examples.

The ONLY problem I ever had with White lithum grease in any gun was a .22 semiauto when it was about 20 degrees fahrenheit. It just thickened up too much for the bolt to overcome with only a .22 driving it back.

I have used it with unflinching success on a .32 pistol and up though, and I'm maybe 10% of the way through the caulking tube of the stuff I bought for $4 3 years ago.

I was asking about the AR15 specificaly, I've used lithium before and love it, experimented with graphite and it seems gtg as well on most things.
With the AR, however, it has always been told to me over the years to oil it liberaly and oil only.
It is good to know that other types of lubrication (which are better IMHO) also work on the plkatform and I think this information needs to be put in the face of the public.
I still won't be using one personaly but this does change the recomendations I give new shooters a bit and I thank you all for your honest answers.

My AR was included in that ".32 Pistol and up", just to double-plus clarify. This is a cool thread, I'm glad it's staying civil!

[Doctorr Fabulous]

M9's are 50/50 in my experience. However, everyone should remember that the technical name for the M9 service pistol is the M9 all-purpose hammer. Treat any pistol like that for several years and the failure rate will skyrocket.

That said, I'm not a fan of the design, and several of the 92's I've used were shit.

[Turtlewolf]

My AR was included in that ".32 Pistol and up", just to double-plus clarify. This is a cool thread, I'm glad it's staying civil!

Well, contrary to some belief, I am not an AR hater and have always had a woody for the AR10 since the first time I saw a picture of one with the charging handle in the carry handle.
There are design issues (as I see them) that will always keep the AR from being even close to a top pick for me and add to the fact the restricted status of all of them here in Canada further limits any practical use of the weapon system.
On topic:any handgun with a magazine disconnect, we've lost at least one RCMP officer because of these trumped up bullshit devices.

[Jsimmonsgr]

Got a few more for the list,

S&W Semi autos, horrible triggers, mag safetys, heavy and dammed uncomfortable.
Anything manufactured by Todd 'Toad' Baily, mostly HK mp5 type clones, all are sucktastic.
Anything in a large funky caliber (.338 LM, .416 Barrett, .500 nitro-.700 nitro)
Anything in a aftermarket ' bullpup' stock, these are universally crap.
Yugo SKS, hell any SKS that has after market crap bolted to it. ( there are a couple of aftermarket stocks that are not too bad, but most of it is mall ninja crap)
10mm handguns, ammo is a bitch to find and it has recoil and pressure issues that were never resolved.
Desert Eagle, they are heavy as hell, ammo sensitive, and rather tempermental ( must be kept very clean, and are a right pain in the ass to dissasemble)
Black powder guns, yes you can theroretically make your own ammo, but it is a pain, and the smoke from said gun will bring way to much attention.

This being said, I will for the record state I have no problem with the SKS platform, I have two ( Noricos, one paratrooper, one paratrooper-M) that run like champs. Also I would mention that the TT-33 and the P-38\P-1 are both viable as a PAW sidearm, both are relable as long as you use ball ammo.

[northernxposure]

Got a few more for the list,

S&W Semi autos, horrible triggers, mag safetys, heavy and dammed uncomfortable.

Eh, no - the 3rdgen Smith has one of the shortest resets out there, triggers when smoothed are outstanding, the mag safety was an option that could be purchased with out (not to mention it's very easy to bypass), the aluminum framed guns were no heavier than other metal framed guns, and comfort is subjective. Incredibly reliable pistol, the all stainless models can outlast damn near anything.

Anything manufactured by Todd 'Toad' Baily, mostly HK mp5 type clones, all are sucktastic.
Anything in a large funky caliber (.338 LM, .416 Barrett, .500 nitro-.700 nitro)
Anything in a aftermarket ' bullpup' stock, these are universally crap.
Yugo SKS, hell any SKS that has after market crap bolted to it. ( there are a couple of aftermarket stocks that are not too bad, but most of it is mall ninja crap)
10mm handguns, ammo is a bitch to find and it has recoil and pressure issues that were never resolved.

Eh? Wut? Makes no sense - 10mm is no more difficult to find than 357Sig...

Desert Eagle, they are heavy as hell, ammo sensitive, and rather tempermental ( must be kept very clean, and are a right pain in the ass to dissasemble)
Black powder guns, yes you can theroretically make your own ammo, but it is a pain, and the smoke from said gun will bring way to much attention.

Pretty sure the report is going to draw a lot more heads than the smoke - pouring lead isn't difficult at all, pillow ticking is cheap, there are low smoke versions of powder.

This being said, I will for the record state I have no problem with the SKS platform, I have two ( Noricos, one paratrooper, one paratrooper-M) that run like champs. Also I would mention that the TT-33 and the P-38\P-1 are both viable as a PAW sidearm, both are relable as long as you use ball ammo.

I would not consider the TT-33 a viable "PAW" sidearm. It is what it is - a cheap, soviet knock off of a 1903 with no safety outside of the half-cock position. It's a great fun gun, ammo was cheap for it, it's disposable - but in terms of reliability... Better than foul language and sharp stick I suppose.

NXP

[Jsimmonsgr]

Got a few more for the list,

S&W Semi autos, horrible triggers, mag safetys, heavy and dammed uncomfortable.

Eh, no - the 3rdgen Smith has one of the shortest resets out there, triggers when smoothed are outstanding, the mag safety was an option that could be purchased with out (not to mention it's very easy to bypass), the aluminum framed guns were no heavier than other metal framed guns, and comfort is subjective. Incredibly reliable pistol, the all stainless models can outlast damn near anything.

Yeah, maybe but it is still a dammed big gun for the calber, mags are more uncommon than other choices, and I dare you to show me a S&W Sigma with a 'smooth' trigger.

Anything manufactured by Todd 'Toad' Baily, mostly HK mp5 type clones, all are sucktastic.
Anything in a large funky caliber (.338 LM, .416 Barrett, .500 nitro-.700 nitro)
Anything in a aftermarket ' bullpup' stock, these are universally crap.
Yugo SKS, hell any SKS that has after market crap bolted to it. ( there are a couple of aftermarket stocks that are not too bad, but most of it is mall ninja crap)
10mm handguns, ammo is a bitch to find and it has recoil and pressure issues that were never resolved.

Eh? Wut? Makes no sense - 10mm is no more difficult to find than 357Sig...
I don't like that caliber either, but the 10mm has a history of catastrophic failures, plus why have a gun that kickes like a raped ape and has a odd ball caliber? I can't find it at walmart, or at local shops, and the interwebs won't be viable in a PAW.

Desert Eagle, they are heavy as hell, ammo sensitive, and rather tempermental ( must be kept very clean, and are a right pain in the ass to dissasemble)
Black powder guns, yes you can theroretically make your own ammo, but it is a pain, and the smoke from said gun will bring way to much attention.

Pretty sure the report is going to draw a lot more heads than the smoke - pouring lead isn't difficult at all, pillow ticking is cheap, there are low smoke versions of powder.

This is all true, but even 'low' smoke versions of BP are going to produce more smoke, and less power, than current smokeless powder. Also I don't want a gun that I can maybe fire 1-2 rounds a min out of. ( maybe 12 in a revolver with a removable cylinder, like a remington 1858.)

This being said, I will for the record state I have no problem with the SKS platform, I have two ( Noricos, one paratrooper, one paratrooper-M) that run like champs. Also I would mention that the TT-33 and the P-38\P-1 are both viable as a PAW sidearm, both are relable as long as you use ball ammo.

I would not consider the TT-33 a viable "PAW" sidearm. It is what it is - a cheap, soviet knock off of a 1903 with no safety outside of the half-cock position. It's a great fun gun, ammo was cheap for it, it's disposable - but in terms of reliability... Better than foul language and sharp stick I suppose.

It is a reliable weapon if you are familiar with its drawbacks and are competant in its use. I will say that I have both a russian TT-33 that my grandfather brought back, and a romainian copy, and both are dammed relable and fun to shoot. No the accuracy is not on par with a more modern pistol, and they do have the issue with the safety, but if either carried with a empty chamber or in a flap hoster neither is a problem for me. Yes they are crap for ergonomics, the triggers suck and they have almost nothing for sights but still they work. The biggest issue was ammo, and to deal with that both have replacement 9mm barrels.

BTW you are right that they have some features that were taken from the 1903, but they have other features that are pure Soviet. Look at the evolution of the AK, they took availible tech and modified it to suit their needs.

NXP

[UndeadInfidel]

Yeah, maybe but it is still a dammed big gun for the calber, mags are more uncommon than other choices, and I dare you to show me a S&W Sigma with a 'smooth' trigger.

Are you talking about Sigmas or M&Ps? Two very different guns.

[Czechnology]

Yeah, maybe but it is still a dammed big gun for the calber, mags are more uncommon than other choices, and I dare you to show me a S&W Sigma with a 'smooth' trigger.

Are you talking about Sigmas or M&Ps? Two very different guns.

If you go even farther back, the steel-framed S&W's have amazing triggers. I've never fired a double action pistol with a better DA pull/reset than my wife's 3913. I fucking hate the mag safety and the slide-mounted safety, but the trigger is a fucking dream.

[Kommander]

I don't think anyone is going to seriously consider using a blackpowder gun unless they are either hunting and want to conserve manufactured ammo or things have gone so far to shit that fixed ammunition is no longer available and it's blackpowder or nothing.

[mk_ultra]

M1 carbines by Universal . Early ones made with USGI parts are okay , later ones are utter junk .

[dizie]

Smith and Wesson Sigma.

Love my s&w sigma sw9ve. Awesome weapon.

Yes it does have a heavy trigger, after about 100 pounds got use to it. Key with any weapon it to put some rounds threw it. And its so light weight, less then 2 pounds loaded, 1 pound 5 oz not loaded.

For like $50-100 you can get the built in safety removed and what ever trigger pull weight you like.

And another thing, its so easy to field strip!!

And another thing 16+1, nice!!!

[dizie]

.25, .32 and 380. Ammo is expensive.

On the other hand they can be really small guns. Might make a good back up weapon.

My older .25 beretta use to jam all the time.

[northernxposure]

Yeah, maybe but it is still a dammed big gun for the calber, mags are more uncommon than other choices, and I dare you to show me a S&W Sigma with a 'smooth' trigger.

Are you talking about Sigmas or M&Ps? Two very different guns.

If you go even farther back, the steel-framed S&W's have amazing triggers. I've never fired a double action pistol with a better DA pull/reset than my wife's 3913. I fucking hate the mag safety and the slide-mounted safety, but the trigger is a fucking dream.

I really think the Sigma gets a bad rap. True it doesn't have the trigger that the M&P has, but the M&P trigger isn't a Glock trigger either. The 4th gen Sigma's really got rid of a lot of the kinks that the 1st/2nd gen Sigmas had - but it's still an 8-9# trigger. Consider that the DAO 3rdgen Smiths had a trigger pull of 10#, and the TDA 3rd gen's DA pull was over 13# with the 20# mainspring. Trigger pull weight aside, it's an excellent value in it's price point.

Personally, I thought the SW99's had one of the best TDA triggers on the market - especially with the ability to move the DA stroke to a shortened pre-cocked position. Walther really had a good idea with that - too bad it had weak aftermarket support and odd hardware.

Czech - the mag safety is easy to disable - just drift the rear sight over and remove the spring/plunger. Then the mag follower lever won't engage the firing pin block. You're right on the slide mounted safety, though - that sucks.

NXP

[Jsimmonsgr]

Yeah, maybe but it is still a dammed big gun for the calber, mags are more uncommon than other choices, and I dare you to show me a S&W Sigma with a 'smooth' trigger.

Are you talking about Sigmas or M&Ps? Two very different guns.

If you go even farther back, the steel-framed S&W's have amazing triggers. I've never fired a double action pistol with a better DA pull/reset than my wife's 3913. I fucking hate the mag safety and the slide-mounted safety, but the trigger is a fucking dream.

I really think the Sigma gets a bad rap. True it doesn't have the trigger that the M&P has, but the M&P trigger isn't a Glock trigger either. The 4th gen Sigma's really got rid of a lot of the kinks that the 1st/2nd gen Sigmas had - but it's still an 8-9# trigger. Consider that the DAO 3rdgen Smiths had a trigger pull of 10#, and the TDA 3rd gen's DA pull was over 13# with the 20# mainspring. Trigger pull weight aside, it's an excellent value in it's price point.

Personally, I thought the SW99's had one of the best TDA triggers on the market - especially with the ability to move the DA stroke to a shortened pre-cocked position. Walther really had a good idea with that - too bad it had weak aftermarket support and odd hardware.

Czech - the mag safety is easy to disable - just drift the rear sight over and remove the spring/plunger. Then the mag follower lever won't engage the firing pin block. You're right on the slide mounted safety, though - that sucks.

NXP

Third gen alloy framed\steel framed S&Ws are heavy and bulky, but have tolerable triggers. Sigmas are lighter and more comfortable in the hand but have horrible triggers. Also I feel the need to point out that speaking from experience S&W are a universal PAIN to work on, with the exception of their revolvers.

I will grant you that I am very biased on trigger pull as I normally carry one of several 1911s which all have a 4.5# trigger pull with about 1/8" travel. What can I say? I am a picky bastard when it comes to my daily carry guns.

[northernxposure]

Agree 100% on the pain to work on. The 3rd gen I tore down to the frame was a mouse trap and a half for the trigger group.

Still - the OP's topic was "avoidance based on performance", not preference. For as much hate as the Sigma collects, it does run, and runs very well. As do the 3rd Gen Smiths - very, very well.

NXP

[Jsimmonsgr]

From my personal viewpoint, both are on the list for good reasons. Yeah they may run good but if I can't work on it without a lot of time and frustration it is not a good choice for SHTF.

Also I prefer to have a side arm that is
1. Accurate, and the horrible triggers limit that.
2. Fairly easy to conceal, the 3rd gens are not easy to conceal when you are a bigger fella.
3. Easy to find spare mags and parts for, both guns are gonna be more difficult on this than other choices on the market.

[Czechnology]

I will grant you that I am very biased on trigger pull as I normally carry one of several 1911s which all have a 4.5# trigger pull with about 1/8" travel. What can I say? I am a picky bastard when it comes to my daily carry guns.

Comparing a single action to a DAO trigger is just not fair.

[searching4itnc]

I've been going through a lot of the Firearms Threads and keep seeing recommendation upon recommendation for best pistols, shotguns and rifles.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ONE'S YOU WOULDN'T RECOMMEND?

Casting my vote for the SIG MOSQUITO .22 LR.

I bought one for my wife for Christmas. It was her first handgun and the first time she's ever shot a pistol.

PROS:

The gun feels about 90% in size compared to the SIG 220. Tactically, it's a winner. Has a tactical rail for flashlight/laser (bought a cheap one on http://www.ebay.com for around $40). The pistol is dead one accurate at 20 yards. It feels great in my hands and is extremely fun and cheap to shoot. The price wasn't bad either; especially compared to regular SIG pistols. I picked mine up new at $309.00.

CONS:

(1) The pistol only came with one magazine. Another is $30.00.

(2) Not enough commercially available holsters on the market yet for my tastes.

(3) It jams. (Biggest CON). And I understand after doing research that the jamming is a major problem. SIG apparently is aware and changed the new springs in the latest line of Mosquito pistols, but it's still not helping. I either experience a feeding problem or ejection problem. I've done a bit of further research and discovered that high velocity ammunition can make a difference (over 1300 fps), but it's still an issue. I've tried Federal, Remington, Dynapoint, and yes: the CCI Stinger ammo. The problem seems to be fewer, but it's still there. My best ammo so far is the Winchester High Velocity HP. Unfortunately, it still jams about every other magazine change. I've already bought over $70.00 in various ammo trying what works best. I did find some http://www.youtube.com videos that suggest there's a feed ramp problem and that the softer .22 bullet "scraps" the chamber entering it, causing lead to smear. This smear is causing loading and ejecting problems and recommends that the ramp be polished. I've got a buddy/gunsmith doing that right now. Of all the pistols I've ever bought and fired out of the box, the performance on this one has been the worst.

I owe the forum and SIG a HUGE APOLOGY!

I've been buying different brands of ammo to see which .22 rounds the SIG will feed the best. Today, I bought some Remington Golden Bullets .22 High Velocity. I brought my four year old son with me, since he loves to shoot (I hold the pistol, he pulls the trigger). Anyhow; while I was taking the pistol from it's box, my son pulled the foam top off. What did I find behind it? The extra spring.

Man! What a difference! Just got inside from putting over 150 rounds through the Mosquito with ZERO problems. I feel horrible for bashing the SIG gun, when I never took the time to do something as simple as check the box. SIG, you have my sincerest apology. As do the members here. I started this thread to air my hatred of this pistol. Now that I got the new spring in it (pistol comes with two) I can't remember having so much fun.

I'm sorry.