What Guns Would You Avoid Buying Based on Performance?

[Yrkoon9]

Another vote for Sig Mosquito. Bought one for the wife. Wouldn't cycle correctly. After trying about 7 different types of ammo I traded it in on a Sig p225 for her. The 225 is a winner.

[jdudkiewicz]

Do we count reliability as a dimension of performance? If so, then any AR.

[Czechnology]

Taurus: Poor QC coupled with poor designs.

They have their own designs now?

OT: SVT-40. Where do I start?

Teensy, hard to clean adjustable gas system with corrosive ammo.

Overcomplicated action (my unit had 4 between us, and every single one of us lost at least one spring every time we stripped the things. (When we all cleaned them together at the same time, guys nearby would count off the springs flying across the room, betting on who would lose the most. I never, ever, ever stripped that fucker in the field.)

Fragile Birch stock with a shitty lacquer finish that wore off if you looked @ it for too long

Equally crappy steel/finish that acquired surface rust on a humid day.

Mine in particular choked on most surplus ammo, (Despite proper headspacing) though that was unique to mine.

************

Personal experience: AR's run great with cheap-as-fuck automotive White Lithium Grease. If you're paying out the ass for some fancy lube, know that you do not have to. I have fired it in sub-freezing temps @ 3,000' (altitude) with no cycling/slowing problems.

[UndeadInfidel]

Do we count reliability as a dimension of performance? If so, then any AR.

Welcome to the forums, Mr Internet Troll.

[smokestack]

a few years ago i bought my daughter a walther p22, i was a little dissapointed.it has never really preformed all that well. had to return it for a spring replacement. for the most part i dont really regrete buying the pistol but given the option, i would make a differnt choice in the future.

[ElevenBravo]

Anything Taurus.

This.

Bump This

[Redfred16]

Any Beretta handgun. I heard the Storm is decent, but every M9(aka 92F) I was ever issued were such POS theres no way I'd even try one.

[jdudkiewicz]

Do we count reliability as a dimension of performance? If so, then any AR.

Welcome to the forums, Mr Internet Troll.

So acknowledging the well known failures of a rifle=troll? lol

[TDW586]

Do we count reliability as a dimension of performance? If so, then any AR.

Welcome to the forums, Mr Internet Troll.

So acknowledging the well known failures of a rifle=troll? lol

Just ignore the internet commando, everyone. I'm sure he'll have to report back to SOCOM soon anyway.

[Regular Guy]

Do we count reliability as a dimension of performance? If so, then any AR.

Welcome to the forums, Mr Internet Troll.

So acknowledging the well known failures of a rifle=troll? lol

Yeah, this....

[northernxposure]

Do we count reliability as a dimension of performance? If so, then any AR.

Welcome to the forums, Mr Internet Troll.

So acknowledging the well known failures of a rifle=troll? lol

Old inaccurate stereotype is old. Fish elsewhere.



OT -

Seriously, Taurus. Why must you have such good intentions with your designs and then flop around like clubbed seal just enough put serious doubts in the unit. I had high hopes for a 22LR revolver from them, too... how do you screw up a 22LR revolver?!

NXP

[0122358]

Do we count reliability as a dimension of performance? If so, then any AR.

Welcome to the forums, Mr Internet Troll.

So acknowledging the well known failures of a rifle=troll? lol

6 posts huh...not tyring to be a dick but there's a term here we like to use...lurking...try it sometime

[Turtlewolf]

Old inaccurate stereotype is old. Fish elsewhere.



OT -

Seriously, Taurus. Why must you have such good intentions with your designs and then flop around like clubbed seal just enough put serious doubts in the unit. I had high hopes for a 22LR revolver from them, too... how do you screw up a 22LR revolver?!

NXP

If you're seals are flopping around you clubbed them wrong, I think.
Aim for the base of the skull and it should paralyze the little fuckers and keep them fresh longer, without the flopping around motion of a beheaded chicken .
I just read a report of the brazing failing on the bolts of Mossberg ATR rifles, I owned one and didn't have any issues but this seems to have been a problem on many early production runs so FYI be safe.
I tryed to google AR15's being run on grease (I won't own one anyway because of plunger ejector-hate those things) but I have to admit failure and no one I know has ever done it or is willing to try as we've always been told not too so Czechnology mentioning this is the first concrete report I have ever seen.
Does anyone have any other information on this?
RegularGuy: I've always got a kick about people who fire thousands of rounds through a firearm and call it a good test when it only touches on one small aspect of firearm reliability (this is not an AR specific comment but on all such tests). I consider those tests, as everyone should, as useless when presented alone.

[TDW586]

You absolutely can run an AR with grease rather than oil, is that what you're asking? I've used both TW25B and white lithium grease on mine with great results, and I know quite a few guys who've used TW25 downrange and prefer it.

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[MaconCJ7]

TW25 is good stuff.

[Regular Guy]

RegularGuy: I've always got a kick about people who fire thousands of rounds through a firearm and call it a good test when it only touches on one small aspect of firearm reliability (this is not an AR specific comment but on all such tests). I consider those tests, as everyone should, as useless when presented alone.

Ahhhhh, that's some of the stuff a rifle can go through on a battle field. That's some of the methods the .mil uses to test it's weapons. They toss them in water, blow sand at them and cover them in mud. Just in training my M16A1 was covered in sand, dropped on concrete and knocked into walls. Never missed a beat.

Furthermore, they were not presented alone, there were 4 videos. Now, couple that with personal experiences of hundreds of thousands of end users and thousands of hours of testing the AR-15/M16 by professionals the system is well proven for reliability.

[TDW586]

Turtlewolf, it sounds to me like your experience with the AR is based on outdated military experience. I don't mean that as an insult, it's just that military doctrine regarding the AR rifle for a long time was bullshit in a number of ways. One prominent area in which what the military taught was bullshit was lubrication. Thinking that you can't use grease on an AR is exactly the kind of thing that used to (and unfortunately still does in some units) get pounded into soldiers' heads.

I'm not sure why you dislike the plunger ejector so much, but it works just fine. Replace the appropriate springs every 5000 rounds or so, and start with a quality platform, and reliability is not a concern.

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[nimdabew]

The bolt design is the flaw. Small amounts of moisture in the bolt cause massive failure, the need to run wet and the tiny spring powered ejector=failure in cold climates.

Care to provide a link? I'd like to read more about this.

This about the design, of say, an AR-15. The bolt has a spring loaded plunger on the inside of the bolt. It gets crap inside of it and it is a point of failure. The extractor keeps the round pressed against this spring loaded ejector so when the empty case clears the chamber, it gets forced out by the ejector.

If you fire 50 rounds or so, and a bit of snow gets into the bolt, it will melt and then become ice, rendering your AR-15 a single shot rifle since the rounds won't eject and now you get a double feed every time you fire. Of course, this is a slight short coming of the system, and unlikely to happen if proper precautions are taken, but it is a possibility and a weak link in the system.

[Turtlewolf]

You absolutely can run an AR with grease rather than oil, is that what you're asking? I've used both TW25B and white lithium grease on mine with great results, and I know quite a few guys who've used TW25 downrange and prefer it.

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Thats what I was asking! I actualy thought you guys ment 25W oil when you mentioned it before!
It also puts my personal failures and others with the platform into perspective, I still don't like the design features (AR10 IMHO is better as the parts are bigger and at least the plunger ejector hole is bigger as well) but this changes my oppinion my a degree.
Thankyou for the answers.
Regular Guy: in that video the firearm failed IMHO but that was a good amount of fine abrasive that caused it to lock up, I also noticed that it seemed to run pretty well with the abuse (other than the talc like abrasive) they put it through, which dosen't surprise me. I don't like plunger ejectors because I have had them fail on me in my AO, personal experience and all. I like DG firearms, my AG42B Ljungman hasn't ever failed me.
Now in 90% of all situations there are no issues at all with the design and for 90% of people thats fine, if I lived in a different AO my go to firearms would be different, I wouldn't be using my Lee Enfield, SKS or Maverick 88 if I lived in a more temperate AO.
I DO NOT hate the AR platform, it just didn't work for me and now I'm too cheap to revisit the platform. Some of the failures I have experienced with the plunger ejector were induced, I will admit, but they were situations that I know I could very realisticaly face in my AO. Others just happened and it sucked.
cheers

[Turtlewolf]

The bolt design is the flaw. Small amounts of moisture in the bolt cause massive failure, the need to run wet and the tiny spring powered ejector=failure in cold climates.

Care to provide a link? I'd like to read more about this.

This about the design, of say, an AR-15. The bolt has a spring loaded plunger on the inside of the bolt. It gets crap inside of it and it is a point of failure. The extractor keeps the round pressed against this spring loaded ejector so when the empty case clears the chamber, it gets forced out by the ejector.

If you fire 50 rounds or so, and a bit of snow gets into the bolt, it will melt and then become ice, rendering your AR-15 a single shot rifle since the rounds won't eject and now you get a double feed every time you fire. Of course, this is a slight short coming of the system, and unlikely to happen if proper precautions are taken, but it is a possibility and a weak link in the system.

Thankyou!!
For some reason I've failed to explain that properly, but this does happen, but it is not the norm-but it still sucks.
Again I am not an AR hater!
Thankyou Nimdabew!

[UndeadInfidel]

The bolt design is the flaw. Small amounts of moisture in the bolt cause massive failure, the need to run wet and the tiny spring powered ejector=failure in cold climates.

Care to provide a link? I'd like to read more about this.

This about the design, of say, an AR-15. The bolt has a spring loaded plunger on the inside of the bolt. It gets crap inside of it and it is a point of failure. The extractor keeps the round pressed against this spring loaded ejector so when the empty case clears the chamber, it gets forced out by the ejector.

If you fire 50 rounds or so, and a bit of snow gets into the bolt, it will melt and then become ice, rendering your AR-15 a single shot rifle since the rounds won't eject and now you get a double feed every time you fire. Of course, this is a slight short coming of the system, and unlikely to happen if proper precautions are taken, but it is a possibility and a weak link in the system.

Never heard of anyone that's actually happened to. Then again, I don't live in Canada.

I don't think I'd consider it a good enough reason to avoid the AR15 platform.

[TDW586]

I've had very little experience with firearms in extreme coldweather conditions, so that's new to me. I can see why someone living in that kind of environment would choose a different system, makes perfect sense.



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[Czechnology]

Does anyone have any other information on this?

Dave and Phil_in_CS use either grease, or a mixture of grease and oil.

ETA: I see TDW beat me to it with even more examples.

The ONLY problem I ever had with White lithum grease in any gun was a .22 semiauto when it was about 20 degrees fahrenheit. It just thickened up too much for the bolt to overcome with only a .22 driving it back.

I have used it with unflinching success on a .32 pistol and up though, and I'm maybe 10% of the way through the caulking tube of the stuff I bought for $4 3 years ago.

[lokifz1]

Any Beretta handgun. I heard the Storm is decent, but every M9(aka 92F) I was ever issued were such POS theres no way I'd even try one.

The 92 is a great gun very reliable. Own a couple shot several more never had any issue.