Home Invasion or RAID?

[TDW586]

I can't vouch for others but I'm related to 3 folk in law enforcement, and an aquaintence of mine from my teenage years makes 4 cops I personally know and can call if I'm having major issues, but they aren't local and the neighborhood I'm in and having a job that used to put me out and about right after the bars closed haven't brought me into less contact with LEO's. On top of that I'm the spitting image of a known felon in this town - we could be twins except for not having the same parents. That affects how the local LEO's perceive me which affects how I interact with them and we end up in a vicious circle. Toss im my bipolar and it starts to get fun, much like teasing a honeybadger with your manhood hanging out of your trousers is fun.

I think the deputy telling me I'm lucky a dude didn't punch me when I had a recording of him threatening to beat the living tar out of me didn't help my opinion of the local police force.

So I've dealt with good and bad and hold to the opinion that it's 2% that screw it up for the other 98% just trying to do their job.

Back on topic and stated again for the record: I'm gonna do whatever the guys breaking in decide I'm going to do. This includes, but isn't limited to: get shot, get robbed, get beat up, or get arrested. They are entering my home expecitng trouble and weapons readied while I'm asleep. There's nothing I can do about it except modify my rental property to withstand assault and I'm not going there on a rental.

Sent from my dining room using chicken bones.

I agree completely with you, especially the part in bold.

Also, my phone automatically adds the Tapatalk thing, fuck off.

[RoneKiln]

I can have up to 6 different organizations interacting. Not likely all at once, but that's a lot of different badges and equipment set-ups to keep straight. That's also a lot more opportunities for error.

Now that I've written that out and thought about it, I am way more empathetic about some of the screw-ups that have happened around here. The LEO's in my area must have it rough just keeping straight who should be doing what.

That's a very good point. For the most part, I only anticipate 2 agencies: PD and Sheriffs. BUT, with interagency collaboration, there could be several more, especially in the case of a drug raid.

9MM? Really? Who uses 9MM? Also, many agencies don't actually standardize sidearms, or have several choices of 'standard' sidearm.

Military does, law enforcement don't.

Army National Guard ≠ Sheriff

The FBI has been known to borrow equipment from the National Guard though.

Also, emphasis added.

What any of that has to do with a no-knock is beyond me.

I'm tired. Is there a question in here I'm supposed to be responding to? Relevance of number of possible agencies in my area to no-knock?

I guess I mean to say that in some areas, mismatched gear may not indicate the people storming my front door are bad guys. The assumption many people here are stating of "the police have no need to raid me, so if someone kicks in my door in police gear I can assume their fakes" concerns me. There can be a lot of reasons legit but mistaken LEOs are kicking in the wrong door, especially when multiple agencies are trying to sort out what the other is doing. And assuming you'd instantly recognize their gear or member of the team could be dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Hei ... _drug_raid

My understanding is this guy was wrongfully raided by LEOs that didn't even have jurisdiction in his area, and they never notified the agency that did have jurisdiction. If a team of guys you don't recognize storm in with mismatched police gear screaming they're Cops, it's not necesarrily safe to assume they're fake.

It just occured to me that if I'm tired enough to be having trouble understanding your post, I'm probably having just as much trouble being coherent in my own post. Time for sleep.

[Bunni]

From daily experience I find that 90% of people have no clue what law enforcement individuals look like. Almost no one I know personally except in a professional standpoint can tell me the difference between a Local, County, State, FBI, US Marshal, Swat, fire marshal or meter maid badges. Black clothes with a star or shield automatically means police to the majority of the population it seems to me.

So knowledge is power learn what they look like, and try to get to know the local enforcement if at all possible.

In this scenario, I would shout "show the warrant, I will comply" repeatedly as loud as I can. If they break down the door I would personally open fire. I tried to surrender, but they refused and created a dangerous environment where I would feel threatened for my life. If it were a real SWAT or HBT then they would be breaching multiple entry points, and at minimum have all exits covered. If the back is clear then they are definitely not swat or police in any way shape or form. As I can see the back exit from all portions of my house except the bathroom, 3 seconds is all it takes to verify before I open fire and head for that door.

Chicago due to its court system almost never has a mistake residence, or no knock warrant. Mistakes happen, but for the most part the court keeps the professionals in check, and the professionals are professional. There has to be overwhelming probable cause for a search warrant in this state.

[DarkAxel]

I wonder why no one has yet mentioned the "Cop Look". You know, actually paying attention to how cops move, look, behave, and react. Most LEOs I'm familiar with have an "aura" of professionalism about them, out of uniform but even more so when they are in uniform. It's very difficult to imitate. Even undercover officers, who spend most of their days imitating the demeanor of criminals put on their game face when bringing down a bust.

There's all kinds of non-verbal signals us humans send out, and perceptive people can learn to pick up on them. It's a very important part of developing situational awareness.

[flamewolf393]

Hell, middle of the night? I'm up till 4 or 6 in the morning everyday on my computer in the basement. I would have plenty of reaction time. Too bad I dont own any guns, lol.

[PistolPete]

This is a sensitive topic, but one that's perhaps pertinent to prepping. Let's avoid turning this into a COPS SUCK!!! thread however. There are a lot of good cops. There are also some bad ones. A civilized society needs law enforcement.
There are also some bad doctors, some bad car salesmen, bad politicians, bad teachers, bad clergy, bad forum moderators and bad plumbers. At any given time people who suck could have some power over aspects of your life. But just because you had a plumber or teacher that screwed you doesn't mean you should start bad-mouthing all plumbers and teachers.

So let's stop doing that.

There is no good solution to a raid on your home. It's best to comply and try to minimize the suck. If you resist you'll be met with deadly force, and if you live you'll get brought up on charges, whether you consider it to be a legal raid or not. It sucks, but it's just how things work in the US today. So rather than bitch about cops, or have a WWYD about whether you want to shoot cops or not, how about we steer the conversation on how to protect yourself against a raid? The best way I think is to try to follow the law. Don't have big parties where you have people with guns doing coke off the ass of hookers. Don't sell drugs out of your house or cook meth. Don't do things like yelling and screaming in the front yard to get on the local LEO radar. This doesn't guarantee you won't experience a raid, but it improves your chances.

And that's what being prepared is all about, right? Evaluating risks and trying to mitigate them. I'm just going to go out on a limb here, but I'm going to suggest that trash talking cops and discussing how you will violently resist law enforcement actions on a public forum where you know LEO's frequent, whether you agree with them or not, is probably increasing your risk of a raid. It's also a bad idea in general.

[Tater Raider]

I wonder why no one has yet mentioned the "Cop Look". You know, actually paying attention to how cops move, look, behave, and react. Most LEOs I'm familiar with have an "aura" of professionalism about them, out of uniform but even more so when they are in uniform. It's very difficult to imitate. Even undercover officers, who spend most of their days imitating the demeanor of criminals put on their game face when bringing down a bust.

There's all kinds of non-verbal signals us humans send out, and perceptive people can learn to pick up on them. It's a very important part of developing situational awareness.

I don't think 2 seconds before I get tackled/shot/forced to the ground/butt stroked is going to give me much time to assess the "cop look" or no.

Best prep for something like this is to do things that delay entry. Reinforced doorways, bars on windows, a safe room to retreat to, yadda yadda yadda. Shoot or submit is prep fail, one I refuse to address at this time because there are so many other things I have to prepare for.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

So far, for solutions, we have the following:
1. Know your local LEOs and their agencies.
2. Stay disconnected form groups, people, and activities that might put you on any lists.
3. CLEARLY mark your address.
4. Reinforce entryways, and have 911 on speed dial
5. If they make entry, you're liekly fucked one way or the other.

Interesting that the best solutions are preparedness, huh? I wonder why...

[Tater Raider]

So far, for solutions, we have the following:
1. Know your local LEOs and their agencies.
2. Stay disconnected form groups, people, and activities that might put you on any lists.
3. CLEARLY mark your address.
4. Reinforce entryways, and have 911 on speed dial
5. If they make entry, you're liekly fucked one way or the other.

Interesting that the best solutions are preparedness, huh? I wonder why...

I have no clue why that is Doc.

I find it interesting anyone expected a different answer on a preparedness forum and that there were no preparedness solutions to the issue in the survey.

[DarkAxel]

I don't think 2 seconds before I get tackled/shot/forced to the ground/butt stroked is going to give me much time to assess the "cop look" or no.

Well, the OP did specify that I saw them coming, so...

[Tater Raider]

I don't think 2 seconds before I get tackled/shot/forced to the ground/butt stroked is going to give me much time to assess the "cop look" or no.

Well, the OP did specify that I saw them coming, so...

That's still about 2 seconds before they leave my LOS, so 4 seconds total, half of that with a gun pointed at my center mass. Not much time.

Don't get me wrong, what you said is important but I don't know that it applies here.

[DarkAxel]

I don't think 2 seconds before I get tackled/shot/forced to the ground/butt stroked is going to give me much time to assess the "cop look" or no.

Well, the OP did specify that I saw them coming, so...

That's still about 2 seconds before they leave my LOS, so 4 seconds total, half of that with a gun pointed at my center mass. Not much time.

Don't get me wrong, what you said is important but I don't know that it applies here.

I can usually tell on sight whether or not someone is active duty .mil or a LEO. I'm usually right. Is that enough to bet my life on something like this? Maybe not, but my instincts have been right enough that I don't ignore them, and situations like the one described in the OP is one of the reasons we developed instincts in the first place. I have a very well developed sense of situational awareness thanks to some of the things I've had to deal with in my life.

So far, for solutions, we have the following:
1. Know your local LEOs and their agencies.
2. Stay disconnected form groups, people, and activities that might put you on any lists.
3. CLEARLY mark your address.
4. Reinforce entryways, and have 911 on speed dial
5. If they make entry, you're liekly fucked one way or the other.

I'd add situational awareness to this list as well. Knowing when someone is nosing around on your property is a good way to gain precious seconds if someone does attempt entry. As sad as it is, we can't afford to let our guard down in our own homes anymore thanks to all of the criminal shit-balls in the world.

[Tater Raider]

I can buy that, DA. Easily.

Unfortunately I have all the observational prowess of a pet rock, but me ≠ everyone else.

[duodecima]

Unfortunately I have all the observational prowess of a pet rock, but me ≠ everyone else.

I resemble that remark!

[Rugger]

Slightly off topic, but relevant. Just last week two very close friends had their doors kicked in were robbed in the middle of the day. In a style very similar to what we've been discussing on here.

The first event was near San Antonio and involved an older couple. This was around 11am. Two guys rolled up into the yard, jumped out of the truck, and kicked in the front door. One had a pistol and was shouting at them to get down, while the other guy rapidly cut the cable and unplugged two big tv's. They were in and out in less than 5 minutes. Neighbor was mowing the front yard across the street and snapped a picture with their cell phone. This was last thursday. Same truck was spotted in the neighborhood on Sunday, but no break-ins were reported. The cops still haven't found them.

The second was an ex-drinking buddy (married now) of mine. Happened about 3pm. His wife was at work and he works from home about half of the week. His truck was parked inthe closed garage. He was in the back room/office/man cave and hears the front door kicked in. He dials 911 and tells them he just had his door kicked in and that if they dont get there quick they're going to have some dead burglars, then sets down the phone w the line open. He grabs his shotgun and works his way to the front of the house to find 3 teenagers looking for stuff to steal. He screams at them "who the fuck are you and what the fuck are you doing?" (no, he didn't rack the slide and make the infamous click-clack, it was already chambered and shouldered. I asked) They froze and he told them to get down on the ground and that the cops are already on the way. They bolt for the door and he let's them go. Cops get there 10 minutes later.

Both of these were in Texas, where you have the right to shoot to kill inside of your residence or car. One never had a chance to arm themselves, while the other didn't want to kill 3 kids. Tough situations out there folks.

An aside- the second guy said he sat down the phone so that the 911 operator couldn't tell him what to do and him get in trouble for not listening to this particular highly experienced "operator".

ETA- please excuse the poor spacing and punctuation. I'm on my phone and obviously working very hard.

[RoneKiln]

Tonight I was just told of a friends family member that had a LEO come charging into the backyard with their gun drawn yesterday. The young fellow was playing frisbee with his dog in the back yard. Young man put his hands up, the dog barked, and the dog took one bullet to the chest. I am told the dog did not charge, but I'm hearing this story second hand. I have never met the fellow that just lost his dog. I was shown a picture of the dog wrapped in a towel.

The Officer was at the wrong address. He was allegedly trying to get to a domestic disturbance call that was believed to be quite violent and in need of immediate intervention. My friends family doubts this, but they're a bit emotional right now. I believe the LEO's statement. It's possible for a "raid" to happen off the cuff with very little time to prepare and control the scene. Sometimes officers were needed somewhere minutes ago, and they are doing their best to get there and minimize the damage. It's easy to make mistakes when lives are hanging by seconds and they have to get there impossibly fast.

No apology has been given. The young man has been told by the Austin police that it's his own fault for not having the dog restrained. In his own yard.

This reinforces for me that just cause I've not done anything wrong, I'm not going to assume a LEO storming onto my property is fake.


Edit: Turns out I misunderstood my buddy. His relative was not the fellow that lost the dog. His relative is a best friend and was the first person the young man called after losing his dog. She was also one of the first non-LEOs to arrive there, and helped bury the dog. So that adds another layer to the telephone game for the story I was told.

[Kommander]

Tonight I was just told of a friends family member that had a LEO come charging into the backyard with their gun drawn yesterday. The young fellow was playing frisbee with his dog in the back yard. Young man put his hands up, the dog barked, and the dog took one bullet to the chest. I am told the dog did not charge, but I'm hearing this story second hand. I have never met the fellow that just lost his dog. I was shown a picture of the dog wrapped in a towel.

The Officer was at the wrong address. He was allegedly trying to get to a domestic disturbance call that was believed to be quite violent and in need of immediate intervention. My friends family doubts this, but they're a bit emotional right now. I believe the LEO's statement. It's possible for a "raid" to happen off the cuff with very little time to prepare and control the scene. Sometimes officers were needed somewhere minutes ago, and they are doing their best to get there and minimize the damage. It's easy to make mistakes when lives are hanging by seconds and they have to get there impossibly fast.

No apology has been given. The young man has been told by the Austin police that it's his own fault for not having the dog restrained. In his own yard.

This reinforces for me that just cause I've not done anything wrong, I'm not going to assume a LEO storming onto my property is fake.

You mean this?

[Tater Raider]

Shit happens. Wish it didn't but it does and so we prep.

[Rev]

Shit happens. Wish it didn't but it does and so we prep.

How do your prep for your dog getting shot in the chest while playing Frisbee in your backyard? Make him wear the k9 vests 24/7?

[RoneKiln]

You mean this?

Looks like it. I don't personally know anyone involved. I was just told it was an extended family member of my buddy. Glad an apology was issued. Mistakes happen, and I can see even a well trained, well intentioned person making that sort of horrible mistake when trying to get somewhere real fast and expecting to go straight into a violent situation.

[Tater Raider]

Shit happens. Wish it didn't but it does and so we prep.

How do your prep for your dog getting shot in the chest while playing Frisbee in your backyard? Make him wear the k9 vests 24/7?

Don't get a dog, obviously.

I mean owning a dog is just inviting for it to get shot in the chest in the backyard whilst playing frisbeee.

[EnricaDoom]

Strange question...
Is incredible for me to think about a possibility of resistance. Maybe becouse here people cannot hold weapons at home (only the hunters and in a armored closet, not so fast to open), or becouse I don't know how to shoot...
The only possibility for me is to close my self in the most hided point of the house and call the police. If the guys outstair are really police officers no one will help me and i have to not kill anyone, if they are bad guys, i hope police will arrive fast. If they are not policemen, I'll do all I can to kill the most number of them...

[Tater Raider]

Or take up hunting. I'm not telling you to do that, but seems to me if you want one there's a legal way for you to get one right there.

[EnricaDoom]

Eheh! Hunting license, gun license, a hunting course, a shooting course, periodical controls, every year renovating (and paying) the licenses... not too much easy