Will the armor plate rated for...

[flsgear]

http://bulletproofme.com/How_Good_is_Po ... plus.shtml

While I wouldn't expect the same ballistic performance out of older equipment, old kevlar has been proven time and again to still work.
It's pretty durable stuff - first time I've ever heard of it cutting it's own fibers... Makes sense though. Older kevlar does have some major drawbacks - one being weight. The older stuff is generally about 25-40% heavier than the new kevlar. And goldflex/UHMWPE(spectra) cloth is even lighter than the newer kevlar in most cases. That and the obvious 'less than brand new' protection value (which can vary tremendously based on how much wear it's incurred).

Example: I have a few mid 90's german flak jackets that weigh something like 5lbs ea and are only 14 layers of kevlar rated to about level I/IIA. I have a slightly smaller, early 2000's goldflex ABA Xtreme armor which weighs like 3.5 lbs WITH trauma pad & special threat plate, the entire armor set being rated to IIIA.

Usually the newer stuff is better manufactured as well. More comfortable, better textiles for the carrier, etc. The older stuff is horribly suffocating to wear in most cases, but is better than going naked.

Disclaimer: use older armor at your own risk. This is ESPECIALLY true if you find a vest with "zytel" fiber in it. That fiber was recalled for a reason. It degrades abnormally fast even within the 5 year timeframe most manufacturers use for liability reasons.

[Kutter_0311]

I just want to say: There is no fucking way I would wear 40 year old armor, even if it's "NIB"

Nor would I let anyone on my team wear it. I'd rather they feel naked, and act as such. USE COVER!

[AKFTW]

I just want to say: There is no fucking way I would wear 40 year old armor, even if it's "NIB"

Nor would I let anyone on my team wear it. I'd rather they feel naked, and act as such. USE COVER!

Agreed, I'd much rather wear no armor than shitty armor- not worth the weight and decreased mobility if you aren't getting adequate protection out of it.

[Kutter_0311]

not worth the weight and decreased mobility if you aren't getting adequate protection out of it.

Exactly. Unarmored people under fire move much faster than armored people, and can go farther at speed. I attribute this largely to the decrease in weight, and also significantly to the realization that they don't have any frakkin armor.

Fear can be great motivation to move your ass...

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Fear can be great motivation to move your ass...

I concur.

[Winston Smith]

Sell it to a collector and get some modern rifle plates.

You probably have an old Vietnam era "Chicken Vest", which I wouldn't sell because the value probably isn't that high, but if you don't care for it who cares. I got a good plate carrier from Amazon for $50, and guess what? They have AWESOME plates for $250 that stop 7.62 and 5.56 all day, so you have great protection for $550 out the door. Check out what these things stand up to ("buy" link below video)




http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002O17TD4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_6?ie=UTF8&m=A3FL3JCOW0HYTX

[Unorthodox]

Sell it to a collector and get some modern rifle plates.

You probably have an old Vietnam era "Chicken Vest", which I wouldn't sell because the value probably isn't that high, but if you don't care for it who cares. I got a good plate carrier from Amazon for $50, and guess what? They have AWESOME plates for $250 that stop 7.62 and 5.56 all day, so you have great protection for $550 out the door. Check out what these things stand up to ("buy" link below video)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002O17TD4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_6?ie=UTF8&m=A3FL3JCOW0HYTX

Be extremely careful with steel plates. OCONUS work, sure. But CONUS? The risk of spalling is too high to justify use stateside. Go with a multi-hit rated ceramic or hybrid plate. Steel plates tend to be heavy as fuck as well

And goldflex/UHMWPE(spectra) cloth is even lighter than the newer kevlar in most cases.

UHMWPE is lighter than Kevlar but also more expensive. It DOES provide neutral buoyancy so if you expect to go in the drink, it might be worth it to look into. Problem with Dyneema soft armor is it is still a plastic...and as such can melt. The new FBI testing protocol demonstrates that similar NIJ IIIA armors in Dyneema and Kevlar perform almost identical...except when subjected to contact shots. Dyneema was melted away sufficiently enough that a second shot in the same area would penetrate.

Look for armor using the FBI testing (Source material: Body Armor guru DocGKR )

[Winston Smith]

[quote="Unorthodox"]

Be extremely careful with steel plates. OCONUS work, sure. But CONUS? The risk of spalling is too high to justify use stateside. Go with a multi-hit rated ceramic or hybrid plate. Steel plates tend to be heavy as fuck as well

Just curious, could you elaborate on Spalling? How dangerous is it? And what would make it a problem OCONUS but not CONUS? My guess is your basically talking about getting sandblasted with metal bits, and I guess the bottom line is whatever you wear when you get shot, not every things going to be peaches and cream. I'm all ears though, I might get some soon and I want to make the right buy.

[Kutter_0311]

I could be wrong, but I think he's basicly talking about ricochet hazard.

The risk may be more acceptable off-CONUS due to the higher threat/volume of fire one may encounter.

[Unorthodox]

Be extremely careful with steel plates. OCONUS work, sure. But CONUS? The risk of spalling is too high to justify use stateside. Go with a multi-hit rated ceramic or hybrid plate. Steel plates tend to be heavy as fuck as well

Just curious, could you elaborate on Spalling? How dangerous is it? And what would make it a problem OCONUS but not CONUS? My guess is your basically talking about getting sandblasted with metal bits, and I guess the bottom line is whatever you wear when you get shot, not every things going to be peaches and cream. I'm all ears though, I might get some soon and I want to make the right buy.

If you notice in the video you posted of that multi-hit steel plate being shot, you notice all the dirt and shit kicked up around the plate. Thats the effect of spall/fragmentation and I'd rather not have to dig that shit out of my arms and legs, nor worry about it going into people around me. Roll your own spall guard if you can.

And the reason I say steel plates OCONUS is because usually if you're wearing hard armor in some bumfuck foreign country, you have all sorts of other gear strapped in front of it as well, which will help mitigate fragmentation. I should have prefaced my original post with depending on the kit you're going with, the risk of fragmentation can be reduced. Armor carrier fully jocked up? Fragmentation wouldn't be my first concern (weight would, though)

Slick plate carrier? Others feel that a layer of ballistic nylon is sufficient. I'd personally want something more substantial between steel plate and open air

[AKFTW]

I didn't think spalling was a big deal until I started shooting steel every time I went to the range. THIS is what 30rds of 9mm and 100rds of .22LR did to the ground in front of this plate.



LITERALLY DUG A TRENCH (probably four inches deep) right in front of it. Steel armor without a spall guard is no-fucking-bueno. Plus it's heavy and won't stop many common 5.56 rounds, I think it's the 62gr M855 ones that will zip right through. I'm looking at picking up some Dyneema/HDPE plates at some point, they won't stop EVERYTHING, but they're light enough not to slow you down much (2.5lbs per). And they float

[Kutter_0311]

I'm looking at picking up some Dyneema/HDPE plates at some point, they won't stop EVERYTHING, but they're light enough not to slow you down much (2.5lbs per). And they float

This sounds pretty nice! How thick are they? (Not much of an issue for my CIRAS vest, but it could be for a low-pro rig)

[TDW586]

Dyneema/HDPE plates usually run pretty thick, close to 1/2". Probably more like 3/8, I haven't measured mine. More than worth it in weight savings, though.

Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk

[AKFTW]

I'm looking at picking up some Dyneema/HDPE plates at some point, they won't stop EVERYTHING, but they're light enough not to slow you down much (2.5lbs per). And they float

This sounds pretty nice! How thick are they? (Not much of an issue for my CIRAS vest, but it could be for a low-pro rig)

Not sure, I got the weight off by a bit (3.2lbs or so, not 2.5), but here are some examples:
http://www.securityprousa.com/posariplulfi.html
http://www.protechtactical.com/pc-14-6-2113-mc-3-type-iii-rifle-plate.aspx

There are some ICW examples as well, but IMO that defeats the point since you'd add another few lbs for soft armor.

Some of these in a slick BCS plate carrier (Ranger Green, of course) http://www.beezcombatsystems.com/BCS-Plate-Carrier-Low-Profile-BCS-PC-L.htm is my plan once I get some classes done, maybe a Red Dot (gasp!), and some more ammo and food stockpiled. I see Armor as sprinkles on the icing on the several layer cake- I'm still working on the cake part

[Kutter_0311]

Of those two, I would go with the Protech. The other is ICW soft armor, and totally square, judging by the picture. The Protech plate was multi-curve with shoulder notches, so +500...

Have fun at classes this year!

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Be extremely careful with steel plates. OCONUS work, sure. But CONUS? The risk of spalling is too high to justify use stateside. Go with a multi-hit rated ceramic or hybrid plate. Steel plates tend to be heavy as fuck as well

Just curious, could you elaborate on Spalling? How dangerous is it? And what would make it a problem OCONUS but not CONUS? My guess is your basically talking about getting sandblasted with metal bits, and I guess the bottom line is whatever you wear when you get shot, not every things going to be peaches and cream. I'm all ears though, I might get some soon and I want to make the right buy.

Spalling=/= ricochet. It's when the round hits so hard that little bits of steel on the back side of the plate go flying off the aforementioned back of the plate at somewhere between 99% and 66% of the velocity of the incoming round. think about those little perpetual motion doodads with the steel balls on strings. The side you drop to start the motion is the incoming round, the other side is the spall.

I wouldn't use steel without something to stop the spall, like a layer or two of sandbags. We had a guy too close to ballistic glass that got spall in his face. He survived, his oakley's didn't

[Winston Smith]

So does anyone know what a good trade off of absorbing quantities of AR/AK rounds, while avoiding spall and staying under 500 for a pair?

[Doctorr Fabulous]

So does anyone know what a good trade off of absorbing quantities of AR/AK rounds, while avoiding spall and staying under 500 for a pair?

Most current issue plates aren't rated past 3-4 impacts of any rifle caliber, and a pair of plates for under $500 either mean's they're stolen or have been dropped a lot. In short, no.

[Unorthodox]

I'm looking at picking up some Dyneema/HDPE plates at some point, they won't stop EVERYTHING, but they're light enough not to slow you down much (2.5lbs per). And they float

This sounds pretty nice! How thick are they? (Not much of an issue for my CIRAS vest, but it could be for a low-pro rig)

Should also be aware that with compressed Dyneema plates, green tip 5.56 will zip right on through that shit

So does anyone know what a good trade off of absorbing quantities of AR/AK rounds, while avoiding spall and staying under 500 for a pair?

Under 500 a pair? Nothing that I know of. If you DON'T want to put a price on your life...the AMI TAC3s is damn near invincible. I don't know of any dealers for 'em, but you can order direct with proper credentials.

[Kutter_0311]

If you DON'T want to put a price on your life...the AMI TAC3s is damn near invincible. I don't know of any dealers for 'em, but you can order direct with proper credentials.

At 7.5lbs, they'd better stop 155mm, too!

[Unorthodox]

If you DON'T want to put a price on your life...the AMI TAC3s is damn near invincible. I don't know of any dealers for 'em, but you can order direct with proper credentials.

At 7.5lbs, they'd better stop 155mm, too!

I dunno man, the Velocity Systems ICW plate and soft armor rings out at around 7.3lbs that requires yearly X-rays.

The TAC3s is a stand alone plate that can stop damn near every domestic threat and DOESN'T require yearly X-rays. I dunno about you but I have /no/ idea who offers that kind of service for an individual not backed by a department.

Note: Am I not affiliated with Armored Mobility Inc nor am I an expert in Hard Armor or Soft Armor PPE. Any info I have can be garnered freely from respected Subject Matter Experts in their field. As always, weigh your options and your abilities and tailor your equipment to suit the mission at hand. Absolute best there is may not be feasible or economically viable; I happen to go by the matra of 'find the best and work your way down from there'. YMMV

[Kutter_0311]

the Velocity Systems ICW plate and soft armor rings out at around 7.3lbs that requires yearly X-rays.

The TAC3s is a stand alone plate that can stop damn near every domestic threat and DOESN'T require yearly X-rays. I dunno about you but I have /no/ idea who offers that kind of service for an individual not backed by a department.

That's a hell of a catch, that Catch 22...

You make a valid point, I just hate that it's 15lbs of plates. At least it's 15lbs of plates that won't fracture when I fall.

The only thing worse than heavy gear is heavy gear that fails before it's of any use to you...

[AKFTW]

I'm looking at picking up some Dyneema/HDPE plates at some point, they won't stop EVERYTHING, but they're light enough not to slow you down much (2.5lbs per). And they float

This sounds pretty nice! How thick are they? (Not much of an issue for my CIRAS vest, but it could be for a low-pro rig)

Should also be aware that with compressed Dyneema plates, green tip 5.56 will zip right on through that shit

For the weight savings, it may be an acceptable risk. You're trying not to get shot anyway in the first place, and having armor that weighs half of what ceramics do, floats, and doesn't require you to be as gentle in its handling may be worth the tradeoff in protection for the gains in mobility. But I have never owned or operated in armor, so IDK.

[proteus]

FWIW if you want a good quality piece of body armor you are gonna pay a pretty penny but some of the best you can get and use is made by these guys.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/