Would a 22 LR kill a zombie?

[Malleolus]

You can actually get some nice quality .22 LR or .22 WMR rounds these days due to the popularity of small pocket pistols. Hornady actually makes a .22 WMR in their "Critical Defense" round now. I have two of them in my pocket pistol. Even if a zombie couldn't be easily killed with one, I would still stock up because in a time of survival, the .22 LR (or .22 WMR) would be great to have for small game hunting. Also, it is nowhere near at loud as the .223, ergo will be less noticed at a distance.

Si, keep a good stock of it for small game. Makes your hunting faster and quieter, but don't leave it to chance when it comes to any self defense situation, much less a zombie horde invasion of any size

[Roger Brough]

Yes. .22LR would kill a zombie. Studies might suggest that the younger a shooter is, the larger he thinks his projectile must be. This is not to compare the .22 to the .45 or the .357 magnum, as that was not the question. There have been so many studies done that if the original person asking the question wanted to learn more without shooting, he could could find tons of information on the interwebs, see: .22LR Gel testing, for instance.

.22LR in crime ('95 study):
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

.22 Devastator study:
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_30/iss_3/JFS303850760.pdf

[Malleolus]

Yes. .22LR would kill a zombie. Studies might suggest that the younger a shooter is, the larger he thinks his projectile must be. This is not to compare the .22 to the .45 or the .357 magnum, as that was not the question. There have been so many studies done that if the original person asking the question wanted to learn more without shooting, he could could find tons of information on the interwebs, see: .22LR Gel testing, for instance.

.22LR in crime ('95 study):
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

.22 Devastator study:
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_30/iss_3/JFS303850760.pdf

I don't believe anyone is contesting the ability of the .22 to drop a zombie within it's effective range with proper shot placement, but compared to larger caliber rounds the likelihood of getting all the variables in order for that to happen is far less because shot placement has to be, comparatively, far more precise and the bullet has to behave in a very tight set of constraints to do so.

The only way a .22 can drop a gator, for instance (referencing to a previous post), is if you hold the muzzle of the gun within a few inches usually, or within a few feet if the gator is being restrained of the target area to get the kill, and a gator's head is far larger and less domed(which decreases the chance of deflection due to improper angle of impact) than a humans. Mind you there is only 1 target area on a gator's head anywhere that a .22 can penetrate, so again with all these constraints you can reasonably apply to using a .22 against a humanoid target, the likelihood is greatly diminished compared to larger calibers. An expert marksman against a non moving target on a proper range can get theoretical killing shots with most his rounds, but the likelihood that you'd have this scenario in any apoc world, especially zpoc, is slim, and that's if you are an expert marksman.

[foxx]

Yes. .22LR would kill a zombie. Studies might suggest that the younger a shooter is, the larger he thinks his projectile must be. This is not to compare the .22 to the .45 or the .357 magnum, as that was not the question. There have been so many studies done that if the original person asking the question wanted to learn more without shooting, he could could find tons of information on the interwebs, see: .22LR Gel testing, for instance.

.22LR in crime ('95 study):
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

.22 Devastator study:
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_30/iss_3/JFS303850760.pdf

Just because a particular caliber can kill a human, it doesn't mean they died right away. Stopping power for a human isn't the same as stopping a Zombie. There are plenty of stories of people being shot yet they may not die for hours or days.
Where Zombies are concerned, stopping power=severe brain damage. What could stop a living person may not be enough to damage the correct part of the brain. I know it's conjecture, but I want to destroy as much brain as possible, so as high a caliber as I can manage. Maybe a .22lr in a rifle, at some distance with time to shoot could work. But, in a close range panic, give me more power.

[Roger Brough]

Yes. .22LR would kill a zombie. Studies might suggest that the younger a shooter is, the larger he thinks his projectile must be. This is not to compare the .22 to the .45 or the .357 magnum, as that was not the question. There have been so many studies done that if the original person asking the question wanted to learn more without shooting, he could could find tons of information on the interwebs, see: .22LR Gel testing, for instance.

.22LR in crime ('95 study):
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

.22 Devastator study:
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_30/iss_3/JFS303850760.pdf

I don't believe anyone is contesting the ability of the .22 to drop a zombie within it's effective range with proper shot placement, but compared to larger caliber rounds the likelihood of getting all the variables in order for that to happen is far less because shot placement has to be, comparatively, far more precise and the bullet has to behave in a very tight set of constraints to do so.

The only way a .22 can drop a gator, for instance (referencing to a previous post), is if you hold the muzzle of the gun within a few inches usually, or within a few feet if the gator is being restrained of the target area to get the kill, and a gator's head is far larger and less domed(which decreases the chance of deflection due to improper angle of impact) than a humans. Mind you there is only 1 target area on a gator's head anywhere that a .22 can penetrate, so again with all these constraints you can reasonably apply to using a .22 against a humanoid target, the likelihood is greatly diminished compared to larger calibers. An expert marksman against a non moving target on a proper range can get theoretical killing shots with most his rounds, but the likelihood that you'd have this scenario in any apoc world, especially zpoc, is slim, and that's if you are an expert marksman.

I was merely trying to answer the question. Moving gator targets and close-in melee scenarios were not part of the question or my answer. Besides, an expert-marksmen is but an oxymoron for some.

[Malleolus]

Yes. .22LR would kill a zombie. Studies might suggest that the younger a shooter is, the larger he thinks his projectile must be. This is not to compare the .22 to the .45 or the .357 magnum, as that was not the question. There have been so many studies done that if the original person asking the question wanted to learn more without shooting, he could could find tons of information on the interwebs, see: .22LR Gel testing, for instance.

.22LR in crime ('95 study):
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

.22 Devastator study:
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_30/iss_3/JFS303850760.pdf

I don't believe anyone is contesting the ability of the .22 to drop a zombie within it's effective range with proper shot placement, but compared to larger caliber rounds the likelihood of getting all the variables in order for that to happen is far less because shot placement has to be, comparatively, far more precise and the bullet has to behave in a very tight set of constraints to do so.

The only way a .22 can drop a gator, for instance (referencing to a previous post), is if you hold the muzzle of the gun within a few inches usually, or within a few feet if the gator is being restrained of the target area to get the kill, and a gator's head is far larger and less domed(which decreases the chance of deflection due to improper angle of impact) than a humans. Mind you there is only 1 target area on a gator's head anywhere that a .22 can penetrate, so again with all these constraints you can reasonably apply to using a .22 against a humanoid target, the likelihood is greatly diminished compared to larger calibers. An expert marksman against a non moving target on a proper range can get theoretical killing shots with most his rounds, but the likelihood that you'd have this scenario in any apoc world, especially zpoc, is slim, and that's if you are an expert marksman.

I was merely trying to answer the question. Moving gator targets and close-in melee scenarios were not part of the question or my answer. Besides, an expert-marksmen is but an oxymoron for some.

My point was when you have to take such precautions to make a proper shot on any target because you wanted to use cheaper, lighter ammo it becomes a hinderance for anyone. I'm a marksman, when I take a shot, I have planned how I'm going to fire and where the exact placement is. I don't consider myself an expert because compared to someone who has the time/money to practice regularly (where their expertise increases) they can make the same shot much faster than I. It may be an oxymoron, but I suppose it's kinda a self differentiating term.

[Roger Brough]

I understood what you were trying to say. I have done a little shooting here and there, and mostly prefer .308 but the question was about .22LR The other part was meant as a pun, since the top qualifying men in the Corps wear the expert badge, whereas the marksman badge signifies that one meets the minimum standard.

[Carl M Neit]

The below stories are true and serve to reinforce the fact that shot placement is is paramount even with commonly accepted defense calibers. Of course a .45 is a better stopper but I can't shoot it nearly as well as my Marlin M60. With the .22 im comfortable about 5 times the distance of the 1911 for reliable headshots. Zombies beware, because I keep about 500 rds in my pockets which means I'm not running out of ammo.

"In response to problems encountered by American units fighting Moro guerrillas during the Philippine-American War, the then-standard Colt M1892 revolver, in .38 Long Colt, was found to be unsuitable for the rigors of jungle warfare, particularly in terms of stopping power, as the Moros had very high battle morale and frequently used drugs to inhibit the sensation of pain. The U.S. Army briefly reverted to using the M1873 single-action revolver in .45 Colt caliber, which had been standard during the late 19th century; the heavier bullet was found to be more effective against charging tribesmen. The problems with the .38 Long Colt led to the Army shipping new single action .45 Colt revolvers to the Philippines in 1902. It prompted the then-Chief of Ordnance, General William Crozier, to authorize further testing for a new service pistol"

"13th May 1981, St. Peters Square, Vatican City, the assembled spectators watched in shock and horror as Pope John Paul II (temporarily) succumbed to the impact of raging bullets. The shot was fired by a trained sniper from Turkey, Mehmet Ali Agca, as the Pope was entering St. Peters Square. Four bullets from Browning Hi-Power 9mm semi-automatic pistol, hit the Pope in his abdomen, perforating his colon and small intestines multiple times. Regardless of the number of bullets fired at him, all of them failed to rupture his mesenteric and abdominal arteries. He lost as much as three fourths of his blood and collapsed on his way to Gemelli Hospital."

[velojym]

Not sure about the later reference, but the .38 failures were during a time when round-nosed bullets were pretty much universal. The current crop of defensive bullets would be far better. Heck, I wouldn't want to use ball in my .45 either, though I do understand that certain folks are limited by convention or international law. Too bad.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

The .38 vs .45 report also doesn't factor in shot placement, the fact that 1 shot stops were expected (rare even with today's loads) and the aforementioned shitty loads of the day.

As for the second account...a trained sniper with a pistol...just sayin'

There are FTS with every caliber known to man, including JDAM 500 lb bombs.

[Carl M Neit]

Not trying to undermine the effectiveness of those calibers because in the right hands an 9mm or .38 special is super effective regardless of ammunition type and much better than a .22. Also, those stories are just internet accounts of well known events so "trained sniper" is more or less a misnomer.

A .22 round with proper shot placement can kill a zombie just as dead a .50 cal but with the .22 the shot placement has to be much better. I'd rather rely on a .22 for self defense that I've shot 4000 training rounds out than a 9mm that I've only shot 200. I'd feel much more confident that I could hit what I was aiming at.

Its not a whats better thread, its just would it work.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

A .22 round with proper shot placement can kill a zombie just as dead a .50 cal but with the .22 the shot placement has to be much better.

Prove it.

[foxx]

A .22 round with proper shot placement can kill a zombie just as dead a .50 cal but with the .22 the shot placement has to be much better.

Prove it.

Anybody know where we can find a Zombie? It's hard enough to have absolutes about these ballistics with current known facts, much less with a fictional creature. If Zombies are ever walking around, I'm sure they will be shot at with every known caliber and gun. Even then, there will be no absolutes. Every person is made a little different, skulls are not all the same thickness, some Zombies may be more fresh than others. Each shot will have it's own angle, distance, velocity(at impact), caliber, and type of bullet. A scientific study would have to be done, with some serious controls, to have any arguable "absolutes", even then many will not agree.

I think the real question involves which exact part of the Zombie has to be destroyed, how much of that has to be mutilated? And, how often does each caliber seems to acomplish that goal? I at least want a caliber than could break the pelvis of the average person, it's a larger target, and it could cost them the use of a leg.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

A .22 round with proper shot placement can kill a zombie just as dead a .50 cal but with the .22 the shot placement has to be much better.

Prove it.

Anybody know where we can find a Zombie? It's hard enough to have absolutes about these ballistics with current known facts, much less with a fictional creature. If Zombies are ever walking around, I'm sure they will be shot at with every known caliber and gun. Even then, there will be no absolutes. Every person is made a little different, skulls are not all the same thickness, some Zombies may be more fresh than others. Each shot will have it's own angle, distance, velocity(at impact), caliber, and type of bullet. A scientific study would have to be done, with some serious controls, to have any arguable "absolutes", even then many will not agree.

I think the real question involves which exact part of the Zombie has to be destroyed, how much of that has to be mutilated? And, how often does each caliber seems to acomplish that goal? I at least want a caliber than could break the pelvis of the average person, it's a larger target, and it could cost them the use of a leg.

The EPA and PETA keep denying my request to open a lab to test cosmetics and weaponry on zombies. if it ever goes through, I'll be the first to post about it.

[foxx]

The EPA and PETA keep denying my request to open a lab to test cosmetics and weaponry on zombies. if it ever goes through, I'll be the first to post about it.[/quote]


Please call me if you need an assistant!

[Redeyes]

I too am of the opinion that .22lr is a suboptimal caliber for zombies. However, I learned Monday that a LRN .22lr shot from a 16" barrell will reliably penetrate both sides of a regulation youth football helmet at 25 yards. Unfortunately the DNR workers showed up to clean the range before I could get pics of the helmet. This was the ammo used http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.ph ... 525rd.html the firearm used was a M&P 15-22.

[tookieblueeyes]

It's good to know that a .22 will penetrate 6 inches of bone... and yeah, I have heard that the mafia uses .22 because it will bounce around in the skull (mythbusters should really test that myth see if it is confirmed, plausible or busted)... so I think that a .22 would actually be effective if used against a zombie but I still don't think I would rely solely on a .22 because should it fail and it be the only gun I have on hand... I am SCREWED. If you are going to go up against zombies with a .22, at least bring along a crowbar, a hatchet or a machete that way you at least have SOME FORM of backup

[velojym]

All the available zombies around here are driving up and down the 2 lane highway near my house. Just try running late for work and you're just about certain to get stuck behind a few. Harvest all ya want.

[landser]

Would a 22. kill a zombie with a double tap to the head? If so i would rather stock up on cheap 22. round than the more expence 223. or 7.52 rounds. You get more ammo for your money.

answer no... zombies are not real

[Kbourque3375]

I'll answer the question with a question. How the hell do any of us know what will kill a zombie if none of us have ever encountered them? How do you kill what's already dead? Now, that being said, I'm going to assume shit happened as if often does and now we got a hoard of zombies on our hands. I'm not about to trust my life or the lives of my kids and family to a .22. I think what we all need to do is prepare for when..not if, but when SHTF. We don't know how much shit is gonna hit the fan nor do we know how big of a fan it's gonna be but I am sure at some point it's a happening thing. Use what I'd like to call universal precaution. Have weapons/ammo that will be sufficient to handle anything you gotta kill...or in this case, kill again. Until I know for sure that some mad scientist somewhere is working on a virus to unkill the dead, I'm preparing for any kind of Sh!t that might hit the proverbial fan. That means having a go to weapon, a bug out bag and enough water and MRE in my truck for 7 days. Wouldn't hurt to go to the dr and get a script of antibiotics if you haven't already done so. It's not so much what you prepare for, it's how you prepare that will dictate whether or not you survive. Now, that was the serious Kevin answering that. Here's the fun Kevin......if you gotta shoot at zombies..bust em up with whatever you got and have as much fun as you can doing it because it probably won't be long before you are among the undead too.

[shiddymunkie]

Since this is all hypothetical, lets assume movies can tell us something about killing Zeds. The show "Walking Dead" presupposes that the only part of a Zombie's brain that is working is the brain stem, and so that must be destroyed to stop a zombie. However, the brain stem is only 1-1.5" wide, and 1.5"-2" tall -- roughly the size of a golfball. See image:



...and yet, I have never seen a head shot didn't drop a zombie, which would be far from the case if Walking Dead had it right. Based on just about every other Zombie movie and show, I think we can deduce that shooting a zombie in the brain would be similar to a live person. In the vast majority of cases, it will kill...with a few rare exceptions. With that being said, I wouldn't have a problem using a .22LR on zombies. If 95% of the time any head shot will do -- the .22LR is a pretty good contender:

- Cheap: Can stock piles shit tons of .22LR for next to nothing
- Small: Can carry shit tons on you easily
- Ultra quiet suppressed (using subsonic): As in "all-you-can-hear-is-the-clack-clack-of-the-action" quiet.
- No recoil: Miss your first shot? First head shot didn't work? Multiple Zeds headed your way? What round can offer faster follow ups than .22LR...
- Accurate (especially with subsonic, believe it or not): See above
- Brain Jumbling: If what they say is true, the .22LR MAY serve as a great round for Zeds if only because of the "bouncing around inside the head" effect

Sure, there are more powerful rounds...but we aren't hunting bears, nor are we trying to take zombies down with hits to center of mass. There are definitely drawbacks to .22LR, but what is effective against the living may not be the best choice for the undead. Hydrostatic shock, "knock down power", bleeding out -- all of these things that make projectiles affective against the living doesn't mean jack to Zombies, and so we need to change the way we think about the calibers we hold near-and-dear to our hearts. Its all about head shots, nothing but head shots...on slow moving, dim-witted, and uncoordinated "lemmings". Given this, .22LR seems like a fine choice to me.

[Malleolus]

Since this is all hypothetical, lets assume movies can tell us something about killing Zeds. The show "Walking Dead" presupposes that the only part of a Zombie's brain that is working is the brain stem, and so that must be destroyed to stop a zombie. However, the brain stem is only 1-1.5" wide, and 1.5"-2" tall -- roughly the size of a golfball. See image:



...and yet, I have never seen a head shot didn't drop a zombie, which would be far from the case if Walking Dead had it right. Based on just about every other Zombie movie and show, I think we can deduce that shooting a zombie in the brain would be similar to a live person. In the vast majority of cases, it will kill...with a few rare exceptions. With that being said, I wouldn't have a problem using a .22LR on zombies. If 95% of the time any head shot will do -- the .22LR is a pretty good contender:

- Cheap: Can stock piles shit tons of .22LR for next to nothing
- Small: Can carry shit tons on you easily
- Ultra quiet suppressed (using subsonic): As in "all-you-can-hear-is-the-clack-clack-of-the-action" quiet.
- No recoil: Miss your first shot? First head shot didn't work? Multiple Zeds headed your way? What round can offer faster follow ups than .22LR...
- Accurate (especially with subsonic, believe it or not): See above
- Brain Jumbling: If what they say is true, the .22LR MAY serve as a great round for Zeds if only because of the "bouncing around inside the head" effect

Sure, there are more powerful rounds...but we aren't hunting bears, nor are we trying to take zombies down with hits to center of mass. There are definitely drawbacks to .22LR, but what is effective against the living may not be the best choice for the undead. Hydrostatic shock, "knock down power", bleeding out -- all of these things that make projectiles affective against the living doesn't mean jack to Zombies, and so we need to change the way we think about the calibers we hold near-and-dear to our hearts. Its all about head shots, nothing but head shots...on slow moving, dim-witted, and uncoordinated "lemmings". Given this, .22LR seems like a fine choice to me.

Alas, hollywood zombies. Realistically speaking, any head shot that can drop a human immediately can kill a zombie. This is actually a fairly limited space, called the fatal T. Shots in other area's of the brain outside this area, and depending on the circumstances even inside this area, human's can survive, and hence a zombie can. Given that zombies don't use the vast majority of the brain, it's easy to deduce that no, not just any head shot with any weapon can give you a kill. Plus, as has been established in this forum, the range and caliber of the .22 LR calls for closer range to get a decent lethality, and that's with a proper marksman. You have to balance your skill and carrying capacity, and for most people thinking that they are going to go hollywood and pick off zeds with .22's from distance will wind up with the person having to use 5+ rounds easily before they can even get an incapacitating shot. I'll stick with a heavier caliber that has a greater lethality and penetration for zed defense and save the .22 for what it is intended to be... small game hunting ammo.

[shiddymunkie]

Fair enough. There is naturally going to be some inconsistency between the purely fictional nature of zombies and actual human physiology, so you can understand why I chose to use "movie evidence" to base my claims.

However, what you mentioned isn't a caliber-specific issue -- all calibers would have to accommodate this small "t-zone" region you speak of, which only seems to lend more credence to the idea of placement over power. Granted, expanding rounds will increase the chance of hitting this zone, as will frangible rounds, but unlike the living, you still have to get a head shot with whatever you are shooting to even have a chance. Again, placement over power -- true with the living, 10x more true with the undead.

This is why I still believe the .22LR is a formidable round, as well as for the reasons I listed above. The fact is that a .22LR should have no problems piercing the human skull, even subsonic. From there it's all about shot placement regardless of caliber. And as it just so happens, .22LR has a lot going for it in that regard. This alone should be enough to see the .22LR as a viable round in ZPAW. All of the other benefits, the low cost, the ease of carrying, the stealth with a suppressor...those just take it from viable choice to a good choice in my mind.

While living humans may not be considered small game, a Zombie's head is.

[foxx]

If the .22lr is so great, why doesn't the US military use it?