Home Invasion or RAID?

[Tater Raider]

Okay, Police stats: http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1129/p03s03-ussc.html

Example of a home invasion group using no-knock as cover: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,326885,00.html

That's the only example I found, but it does set precident for this.

I'm still following along and will look into stuff if questions come up on statistics, but like I said I have the answer that suits me on the WWYD and won't argue for it further. I'm just here to help now, and maybe fix popcorn.

[Rev]

Your response isn't really a good answer for those who are not home owners. To make a significant enough panic room to keep from being breached within moments required modification most landlords would not allow.

[squinty]

Home invaders do frequently impersonate police, with varying degrees of sophistication, from merely yelling "police!" as they pound on the door, to actually suiting up and mimicking the appearance of a SWAT team quite effectively.
Real, actual police also frequently conduct no-knock raids on innocent peoples' homes and businesses, based on bad intel, or a failure to get the address right, or a vague and/or legally suspect "multiple address" warrant, often with deadly results.
You are more vulnerable to either scenario if you are up to anything illegal, of course. The most effective "police impersonator" home invasions are committed against people who have reason to expect police might come through their door one day. But even being scrupulously law abiding won't protect you 100% from the predations of criminals or the errors of police.

My answer to this WWYD would constitute egregious political advocacy. Sometimes the disasters that befall us are legislative or political in nature, and the best way to prep for them is to engage in political advocacy to forestall, avert, or ameliorate that political/legislative disaster. Since opinions vary wildly as to what constitutes a disastrous versus a sound policy, we obviously can't discuss those sort of preps on this particular site. Nevertheless, political activism is a form of prepping.

ETA: As to response #1 in this poll, I and other posters have stressed, in other threads, the importance of target ID and correct threat assessment even in home invasion scenarios. How certain would you have to be to shoot back at the people kicking in your door? 51% sure they weren't really cops? 99% sure? How much doubt must there be in your mind before answering "I Fight" becomes advocacy of illegal activity? Even most stand your ground laws make exceptions for "police in the lawful performance of their duty" or some such language. If there's any chance that the person claiming to be a cop really is a cop, I don't want to shoot. As a law abiding citizen, I shouldn't be put in that position.

[Rev]

Just realized something. My new house would be a bitch to storm into. This pleases me.

[squinty]

If you haven't committed any crimes one would assume that those forcing there way into your home were the criminals.

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
Just because you know you haven't committed a crime, doesn't mean they know.
Of course, in the US judicial system every suspect is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Warrants and investigations and searches and arrests must necessarily precede charges or convictions. Therefore, every person who is ever subject to a search warrant is an "innocent" person, and should be treated as such. The innocent and guilty alike have the same rights, at least until sentencing.

[Kutter_0311]

I and other posters have stressed, in other threads, the importance of target ID and correct threat assessment even in home invasion scenarios... If there's any chance that the person claiming to be a cop really is a cop, I don't want to shoot. As a law abiding citizen, I shouldn't be put in that position.

I think this sums up my thoughts on the matter.

Here's a thought on target ID/threat assessment: Motion lights.

Outside motion lights will either be minimally helpful, or disabled by a team making entry, and either way are not setting off any kind of alarm. My idea, though, is interior motion lights. As we saw from the one raid video, darkness makes target ID/threat assessment very hard. Cover the hallways and inner doorways with motion-activated floodlights so you can see who is there.

Due to the nature of most dwellings, bedrooms are often the last rooms reached. This is one of the last remnants of defensive architecture still in common use. It won't buy you much time, but it buys you the time you have.

[squinty]

I and other posters have stressed, in other threads, the importance of target ID and correct threat assessment even in home invasion scenarios... If there's any chance that the person claiming to be a cop really is a cop, I don't want to shoot. As a law abiding citizen, I shouldn't be put in that position.

I think this sums up my thoughts on the matter.

Here's a thought on target ID/threat assessment: Motion lights.

Outside motion lights will either be minimally helpful, or disabled by a team making entry, and either way are not setting off any kind of alarm. My idea, though, is interior motion lights. As we saw from the one raid video, darkness makes target ID/threat assessment very hard. Cover the hallways and inner doorways with motion-activated floodlights so you can see who is there.

Due to the nature of most dwellings, bedrooms are often the last rooms reached. This is one of the last remnants of defensive architecture still in common use. It won't buy you much time, but it buys you the time you have.

Plus ONE for indoor motion lights, they are a great idea (I have exactly one, at the top of my stairs, need more. It also helps me carry packages upstairs with my arms full.)

But in the scenario imagined by the OP, it isn't darkness that makes target ID difficult. It's the uncertainty as to whether they are cops or not - a well lit figure in a black ski mask and a windbreaker that says [whatever agency] on it, still may or may not be the po-po no matter how well you light the room. He may look like the police, he may say he's the police but then again he's tossing a flash bang or ordering you to the floor at gunpoint, not showing dept. ID. And you, being the law abiding citizen, think it's unlikely that actual police would bother you this way.

ETA: [Squinty withdraws from thread before descending further into hysterics and babbling.]

[Tater Raider]

Your response isn't really a good answer for those who are not home owners. To make a significant enough panic room to keep from being breached within moments required modification most landlords would not allow.

As someone who rents I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

[Captain_Obvious]

You can definitely make your door a bitch to get into. Anyone who has ever tried to kick in a hotel door or some apartment doors knows that it can be almost impossible. There are some doors that you will spend several minutes beating off the frame. With those we don't even bother at first. We just knock. So, if you have a metal door and frame with a dead bolt, no one is just gonna kick that shit open.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk

[Kutter_0311]

You can definitely make your door a bitch to get into. Anyone who has ever tried to kick in a hotel door or some apartment doors knows that it can be almost impossible. There are some doors that you will spend several minutes beating off the frame. With those we don't even bother at first. We just knock. So, if you have a metal door and frame with a dead bolt, no one is just gonna kick that shit open.

So a metal door itself isn't enough, a metal frame is also needed? Am I understanding you?

[williaty]

You can definitely make your door a bitch to get into. Anyone who has ever tried to kick in a hotel door or some apartment doors knows that it can be almost impossible. There are some doors that you will spend several minutes beating off the frame. With those we don't even bother at first. We just knock. So, if you have a metal door and frame with a dead bolt, no one is just gonna kick that shit open.

So a metal door itself isn't enough, a metal frame is also needed? Am I understanding you?

Yeah, it is. I've locked myself out of a cheap apartment and had to shoulder my way in. I figured I'd break the really cheesy, air-core interior quality door. Nope. Broke the even more cheesy door jamb that was only secured with two screwed shims. That's also the theory by which Hi-Lifting a door works. Put the Hi-Lift sideways across the door right at the knob. Expand the jack a bit, door jamb fails, door opens.

[squinty]

My parents own a number of rental properties, and various doors have been kicked in at different times by people breaking into the houses. I've also kicked open a friend's door to get inside to render first aid (long story.) In every case, the door jamb has split or the deadbolt has torn right through the jamb. The door stays intact.

In some cases, a prybar pounded between the door and jamb has been sufficient to pop the bolt free of the jamb. Only takes a second or two. Hardware stores sell brass plates that go around your deadbolt and knob on the outside of your door, that overlap the space between your door and the wall. This makes the door a bit harder to pry open.

There are also interior braces that you can use while your home. They are a piece of tube steel with a "Y" or "U" shaped attachment at the top that wedges under your door knob, and the foot of the brace anchors to the floor. The brace will absorb a lot of the force of a kicked, shoved, or pried door, taking stress off the deadbolt and jamb.

edit:spelling

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Breaching:
A door has 3 weak points. The lockset is the most often thought of. A Metal door frame and a GOOD lockset will reinforce this just fine, and defeat most non-explosive breaches to the lockset.

Next is the hinges. Strong, interior hinges (preferably 3 or more) will defeat MOST hinge-side breaching, if attached to a quality metal frame.

Lastly, the door itself. A quality metal door will resist most non-explosive breaches, and the explosives required to breach just the door will be likely illegal or will force the police to be a long ways back, even with the breaching shields and blankets.

In summary, metal door, metal frame, strong interior hinges, and strong lockset. Entry though windows is a bitch when they don't have glass. Glass make sit tougher, and more secure windows even moreso. Keep in mind that ALL exterior doors have to be fortified and locked. There's a reason the first thing they teach a breacher is "turn the knob."

NB: All my experience is in hostile warzones, and I know little of LEO procedures regarding breaches and explosives.

[Rugger]

So... metal doors and frames, secured windows with security film, motion lights at choke points/hallways. I'm thinking a second interior metal door with metal frame in the entry point into the hallway that leads to the bedrooms might be a good idea. A second metal door like the first would be a bitch to deal with, it sounds like. Plus it'd be an unexpected surprise to whoever was trying to get to you. It would kill breaching momentum. They'd be back at square one while they stopped, secured their immediate area, and called the breacher dude and his tool back up to the front of the line. Plus breaching in a narrow hallway, that leads into a narrow hallway can't be a good feeling.

[williaty]

Interior security gates/fencing isn't uncommon in some parts of the world for reasons very similar to this. IIRC, they're called "rape gates" in Africa.

[squinty]

So... metal doors and frames, secured windows with security film, motion lights at choke points/hallways. I'm thinking a second interior metal door with metal frame in the entry point into the hallway that leads to the bedrooms might be a good idea. A second metal door like the first would be a bitch to deal with, it sounds like. Plus it'd be an unexpected surprise to whoever was trying to get to you. It would kill breaching momentum. They'd be back at square one while they stopped, secured their immediate area, and called the breacher dude and his tool back up to the front of the line. Plus breaching in a narrow hallway, that leads into a narrow hallway can't be a good feeling.

So, wrt the initial question: do you try and use this pause in the initial breaching to ascertain whether the guys coming in are really cops? By asking for ID or calling 911 and letting the dispatcher sort it out?
If they ARE actual LEO, do you ask to see the warrant or just throw open the door? Or simply comply with whatever order they give to indicate your cessation of resistance, and let them proceed to batter your door the rest of the way down?

I wonder how often, if ever, one law enforcement agency responds to a home invasion call, only to find some different agency serving a no-knock warrant?

[L1Z4RD]

I'm sure that some of THESE would help stall any invaders.

[Rugger]

So, wrt the initial question: do you try and use this pause in the initial breaching to ascertain whether the guys coming in are really cops? By asking for ID or calling 911 and letting the dispatcher sort it out?
If they ARE actual LEO, do you ask to see the warrant or just throw open the door? Or simply comply with whatever order they give to indicate your cessation of resistance, and let them proceed to batter your door the rest of the way down?

I wonder how often, if ever, one law enforcement agency responds to a home invasion call, only to find some different agency serving a no-knock warrant?

That's a good question. Kind of like a late night booty call that a second guy shows up to. Awkwarrrrrd.

Yes, use the pause to try and determine who it is. But do you really think a criminal is going to attempt to get through the second door. I'd think that would give you your answer pretty quick, as to the legitimacy of the intruders. If they are criminals and still trying to get through, you've REALLY pissed somebody off.

As they reach the second door I'd start telling them to chill TFO, that I am armed, and that I will peacefully surrender once I verify with dispatch that they are in fact Leo's. I will continue the conversation, with the dispatcher on the line at this point hopefully, by saying that I am afraid for my life and I have nothing but their word that they are in fact Leo's. And that any further attempts to endanger my life will be met with lethal force.

And of course I will be calm enough to think of all of this on the fly in the heat of the moment.

[duodecima]

Yes, use the pause to try and determine who it is. But do you really think a criminal is going to attempt to get through the second door. I'd think that would give you your answer pretty quick, as to the legitimacy of the intruders. If they are criminals and still trying to get through, you've REALLY pissed somebody off.

Or the criminals got their address wrong, or somebody gave them a bad address, or lied to them. I'd think any mishap/mistake that could happen to LEAs, could happen as easily or more easily to criminals. Wonder how many criminal home invasions that seem to be random were actually wrong address/bad info?

But yeah, if I had time (and could think that quickly ), I'd absolutely call 911. I can't see any possible downside - if it's criminals, the police are now alerted, if it's the police, their identity can be verified. If it all goes down the tubes, at least there's a recording.

[Kutter_0311]

But yeah, if I had time (and could think that quickly ), I'd absolutely call 911. I can't see any possible downside - if it's criminals, the police are now alerted, if it's the police, their identity can be verified. If it all goes down the tubes, at least there's a recording.

Dear, 911 should be on speed-dial. As much as our babies play with my phone, they never manage to hold 9(911), but often hold 6(my mother) long enough to dial. Initial response to loud noises that are clearly trouble(door breaching is NOT quiet) is to reach for the nightstand. Right hand Glock 35/X300, left hand cell phone(holding "9" for 911). Then to my post at the top of the stair...

[Captain_Obvious]

Breaching:
A door has 3 weak points. The lockset is the most often thought of. A Metal door frame and a GOOD lockset will reinforce this just fine, and defeat most non-explosive breaches to the lockset.

Next is the hinges. Strong, interior hinges (preferably 3 or more) will defeat MOST hinge-side breaching, if attached to a quality metal frame.

Lastly, the door itself. A quality metal door will resist most non-explosive breaches, and the explosives required to breach just the door will be likely illegal or will force the police to be a long ways back, even with the breaching shields and blankets.

In summary, metal door, metal frame, strong interior hinges, and strong lockset. Entry though windows is a bitch when they don't have glass. Glass make sit tougher, and more secure windows even moreso. Keep in mind that ALL exterior doors have to be fortified and locked. There's a reason the first thing they teach a breacher is "turn the knob."

NB: All my experience is in hostile warzones, and I know little of LEO procedures regarding breaches and explosives.

^This. If you have a good metal door, frame, hinges, and lock like doc stated, there will be plenty of time to call 911. Also, criminals like easy targets. If they can't beat the door in with a hammer or kick it in, they will probably give up.

Sent from my HTC PH39100 using Tapatalk 2

[AKFTW]

You know guys, there's an OBVIOUS answer to this problem...http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=86085

[RoneKiln]

A buddy of mine had LEO's try to raid his place by accident at 1am. He was still up trying to sort out some accounting problems with his business at the dining room table when he heard a lot of pounding coming up the stairs to his apartment. He stood up, took two steps and and angrily swung the door open to see LEO's charging at him with a battering ram. They were so shocked to see the door open in front of them they ended up nearly in a pile at the top of the stairs. Luckily nobody crashed into him. A very short and very heated discussion later it was determined they had not only the wrong apartment, but weren't even on the right street. He had me proofread several of the things he wrote up about it when filing complaints with their department afterwards. His issue wasn't so much that they tried to raid the wrong place, but that they continued to be very hostile and unapologetic after determining they had the wrong location. My buddy is one of the nicest guys I know, but he also has a bit of a temper when he finally loses it, so I suspect he never gave them a chance to be apologetic. I have no way of knowing if they intended to knock first or if they planned on keeping the momentum and going straight through with the ram. He was under the impression that they intended to go straight through his door.

I'll state again that in my area, there is a history of both officers hitting the wrong home, and criminals pretending to be officers. To a lesser extent, even officers being criminals (literally specific individual officers breaking the law and being incarcerated for it back when I was a teenager, not a bash against LEO's in general). So I think the topic is of legit concern. Even so, I'd be extremely hesitant to open fire on someone that is likely a well intentioned LEO.

I don't live in a ghetto either! My area is pretty low crime and a nice place overall. Maybe we just had a string of bad luck around here. Luckily most of this happened some time ago and from what I've heard, local training has improved drastically in the last decade.

[Boondock]

I've skimmed this thread a couple of times and found some of the comments and scenarios interesting.

I'm won't argue that mistakes happen or that thugs sometimes impersonate the police, but there are a few indicators of a legitimate or phony raid.

From my experience, the police likely have done some intelligence gathering prior to executing the warrant. They know who's in the home, where the weapons are stored, if there's a dog, etc.

They also usually know, likely from an informant, if a ram or explosives are needed to gain entry.

Most, I say, most police don't serve high-risk warrants during the daytime, they'll wait until the suspects have partied themselves to sleep and hit the home when everyone's passed out in bed.

But let's say, crash, down goes the door. Expect to hear, "Search warrant, search warrant, sheriff's/police department, let me see your hands, on the ground," or words to that effect, not, "Freeze muthafucka, we da poleze!"

That's my personal cue as to whether to defend myself or comply, and even then, I know they've got the drop on me and I'm pretty much screwed.

Even with a half-assed breech, the door probably will open and entry made in three seconds, you will not have time to react, grab an AR, don your vest, dial 911. You are scared, naturally. So are they, cops or crooks.

Like Doc Torr, most of my first-hand MOUT/CQB experience has been military. Here's two examples, both taking place at night:

A. Haiti, 1995, suspected rapist asleep in first-floor bedroom, armed with grenade. Infantry paratrooper squad stacks up and makes entry, finds target lying on a pile of rags, target reaches for shiny object, which turns out to be a HAIR CURLING IRON.

B. Iraq, 2007, fire team clearing dark, spooky building to set up an overwatch on second floor. While climbing staircase, FLAP, FLAP, FLAP, a giant bird swoops down from the rafters. Only a miracle that place didn't turn into a bullet festival.

My point, again, even a trained assault team, military or police, will be hyped up and a bit frightened, I'm assuming drugged-out crooks even more so.

When the stack busts in locked and loaded, in most cases, resistance is futile.