Electro Magnetic Pulse - Major step in any endgame

[MadMichigander13]

Does this mean my ACOG won't work?

If it uses semiconductors (as in Light Emitting Diodes), yep... I myself prefer the dual-illuminated trijicons or the Leatherman Camputer scope.

[CitizenZ]

Does this mean my ACOG won't work?

If it uses semiconductors (as in Light Emitting Diodes), yep... I myself prefer the dual-illuminated trijicons or the Leatherman Camputer scope.

False. Please stop repeating these myths until you have read some of the info already posted in this thread.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

ACOGs have no electronics., It was a joke referencing call of duty when the ACOG stops working after an EMP. It is the original dual-illuminated optic from Trijicon (Tritium Gas and an ambient light-collection device)

[MadMichigander13]

ACOGs have no electronics., It was a joke referencing call of duty when the ACOG stops working after an EMP. It is the original dual-illuminated optic from Trijicon (Tritium Gas and an ambient light-collection device)

I believe there are ACOGs that use batteries, that means they use LEDs, not tritium/fiber-optics. So it depends on the model you have. I am one who strongly prefers the tritium models. I figure virtually all 'civilian' electronic devices (includng equipment used by 'first-responders') will not fair well in such an event.

MadMichigander

[MadMichigander13]

Everyone:

One thing we need to keep in mind is if a hostile nation detonates a megaton-class thermonuclear device 300 nmi above Kansas; it would throw the entire Continental US, as well as much of Canada, and Mexico back into the mid 19th century (I think we can figure out how a fight with an uneffected opponent would play out.) The inductive pulse from such an event would slag any semiconductor (read: transistor) based eletronics almost instantly. So, folks should be thinking of how to store/cache such equipment in a manner to protect it. The only way I know how is what is known as a 'Faraday Cage'. You have an outer surface that is highly conductive, no gaps, openings sealed with conductive cushon (RFI seals), the inside electrically insulated, and connected to an earth ground,

The thing to keep in mind is that if there is an airburst nuke for EMP then you've got much, much bigger issues, like WW III. US reponse to any WMD attack has always been stated as we will reply with WMD.

Can you guess which WMD?

So yeah, WW III. A below grade fallout shelter makes a good faraday cage and you will be needing one if any nukes start to fly.



I expect neutron bombs, the Chinese will want to be able to use the land for agriculture (our presence is likely unneeded nor desired). Can't do that if massively contaminated with radioactive isotopes like Strontium-90 which would happen with H-bombs.


Having said that, my long term plans include a fallout shelter. It's lower on the priority list than food and water though. I suggest we prep for the likely then move towards the "We're all gonna die" stuff, but that's me.

Here's some video on the Tsar Bomba:

[xd dude]

I'm also under the impression that a CME would also be a stronger EMP than any man made ones and would cover the entire planet, not just the hemisphere of impact. Unfortunately I am not positive of the facts and am still learning.

"The Sun is not a Monster!"

[Tater Raider]

I expect neutron bombs, the Chinese will want to be able to use the land for agriculture (our presence is likely unneeded nor desired). Can't do that if massively contaminated with radioactive isotopes like Strontium-90 which would happen with H-bombs.

I dug this out of your quote. I think you miss my point. MAD states that once anyone uses any nuke in anger everyone, meaning every nuclear power, will retaliate.

If, using your example, China uses a neutron bomb the US response is "China had a rich history right up until they decided to use a WMD on us, at which point they ceased to exsist." The more likely nuclear attack is a terrorist attack and, you can call me silly if you disagree with this point, I don't think they will detonate for EMP.

So if you are seriously prepping for an EMP event caused by nuclear device then you need to prepare for a all-out nuclear attack complete with risk assessment (is my AO a traget? fallout?) and appropriate defensive/survival measures to deal with that. Prepping for EMP is part of a larger plan with that stuff.

CME is more likely from an EMP point of view.

Please note at no point did I say to not prepare for an EMP. I am saying it needs to be part of a larger group of preps you failed to mention.

[-----P-----]

If, using your example, China uses a neutron bomb the US response is "China had a rich history right up until they decided to use a WMD on us, at which point they ceased to exsist."

That is so getting sigged...

Wasn't that Eisenhower's idea? Maximum retaliation or something like that. You throw one at us, we throw everything we have back. Have a nice day.
And then Everyone in the world decided it was such a hideously bad idea, they immediately adopted it.

Edit: Massive Retaliation...

[MadMichigander13]

Another good source is current DOD/DOE testing on modern vehicles, in which most vehicles either didn't react, or shut down, but were able to re-start. Take a look at the other threads linked. One Second After was fantasy, based somewhat in reality, but not entirely.

Can you site the documents in question? Also, how recent were these tests conducted (I wouldn't trust anything that's come out during the past 3 years in light of 'current "leadership"'). Older vechicles (pre FADAC like the old carberated gas engines and IDI diesels), but suspect that any microprocessors would get seriously fried since civilian components are not 'hardened' (only exception might be 'First Responders' and that's iffy...

[Rebel Pariah]

ignoring all the sillyness of this thread...


a thought occurs to me...

I wonder how hard it would be to shield the processor of your car?....

wrap it in aluminum foil?

only problem I can see with putting a Faraday cage around the processor is all the wires running to and from would act as antennas, giving more surface area and picking up more of the induced current.... wonder if there is a EASY way of creating a breaker of sorts that could flip under this situation... I think speed is the killer... it has to be able to open VERY quickly

[KnightoftheRoc]

ignoring all the sillyness of this thread...


a thought occurs to me...

I wonder how hard it would be to shield the processor of your car?....

wrap it in aluminum foil?

only problem I can see with putting a Faraday cage around the processor is all the wires running to and from would act as antennas, giving more surface area and picking up more of the induced current.... wonder if there is a EASY way of creating a breaker of sorts that could flip under this situation... I think speed is the killer... it has to be able to open VERY quickly

This raises a point I've wondered about, regarding the EMP-induced voltage-
In order for current to flow, it needs voltage to push it, and a complete circuit. So, say I have a nice, simple example of an unshielded electric motor, but it's turned off via relay, which breaks the circuit on both wires going to the motor armature (and to keep it REAL simple, let's say it's a permanent magnet field- no windings). EMP hits it- how would this fare, with no complete circuit? I'm not propsing relays as an answer to surviving the EMP as a response, I've never seen a mechanical device THAT fast, but as a protection method for a 'ready state', when not actually in use.

[MacAttack]

If you just use the mythbusters episode as an example of electric motors NOT burning out you should be fine.


Even when they got the car to a non starting state(after several huge hits) the electric windows and all other electronic components still worked.


Car computers are "hardened" against everything they could reasonably think of from vibration and impact shock to lightning. Including brief immersion in water. Not a protracted flood mind you. but if it gets wet just dry it out and try it again.

[DialM]

Regarding the perfect sealing of your Faraday cage, let's remember it is called a Faraday CAGE for a reason, and not a "perfectly sealed Faraday box."

[CryHavoc]

Wasn't that Eisenhower's idea? Maximum retaliation or something like that. You throw one at us, we throw everything we have back. Have a nice day.
And then Everyone in the world decided it was such a hideously bad idea, they immediately adopted it.

Edit: Massive Retaliation...

Are you thinking of "Mutually Assured Destruction" - or the MAD Deterrent? Where any exchange of nuclear weapons will result in a massive final exchange? I never heard of that until War Games come out.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Another good source is current DOD/DOE testing on modern vehicles, in which most vehicles either didn't react, or shut down, but were able to re-start. Take a look at the other threads linked. One Second After was fantasy, based somewhat in reality, but not entirely.

Can you site the documents in question? Also, how recent were these tests conducted (I wouldn't trust anything that's come out during the past 3 years in light of 'current "leadership"'). Older vechicles (pre FADAC like the old carberated gas engines and IDI diesels), but suspect that any microprocessors would get seriously fried since civilian components are not 'hardened' (only exception might be 'First Responders' and that's iffy...

Testing's been going on for a few years. I gotta try to track down the tests I saw, verify their declassification, and then write down the links to post them here. In other words, it'll be a few months at best.

From reading your posts, it seems like you have a lot of reading to do. Check the other threads, especially what Bunsen mentions. I think he drops a couple links too.

Also: nice to know that you don't trust the current military leadership to make sure the AF/Army is doing their job correctly. I mean, that was what you were implying, since bitching about the political leadership is verboten.

[-----P-----]

Wasn't that Eisenhower's idea? Maximum retaliation or something like that. You throw one at us, we throw everything we have back. Have a nice day.
And then Everyone in the world decided it was such a hideously bad idea, they immediately adopted it.

Edit: Massive Retaliation...

Are you thinking of "Mutually Assured Destruction" - or the MAD Deterrent? Where any exchange of nuclear weapons will result in a massive final exchange? I never heard of that until War Games come out.

I think that MAD may have stemmed from what I was thinking of, but that's wild speculation and I could be wrong.

Excerpt:
"Massive Retaliation was an all-or-nothing strategy. It was the threat to turn the Soviet Union into a smoking, radiating ruin at the end of two hours. By making nuclear war too destructive to fight, by making the distinction between victor and loser in such a conflict increasingly meaningless, the deterrent strategy aimed at eliminating war itself. Furthermore, and more concretely Massive Retaliation meant the possible deterrence of an all-out attack."

Full Article:
http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-is ... iation.htm

Aside, Doc Torr I would love to see those testing articles. All the stuff I know comes from the 60's...
I wait with baited breath.

[MadMichigander13]

I am hearing that there is a treaty in the works to reduce the US arsenal to 300 warheads. That translates to roughly 6x SSBN-726 'Ohio' class submarines with each Trident-II D-5 carrying 2 reentry vehicles, and 12 warheads as floaters (either a partially utilized Minuteman-3 LLC, cruise missiles, or gravity-bombs). I am concerned that the accoustic signature of the Ohios and our other submarines have been compromised, negating their only protection, their stealth. I see this treaty passing with Harry Ried and the Democrats running the Senate, if it hasn't already been signed.

[williaty]

ignoring all the sillyness of this thread...


a thought occurs to me...

I wonder how hard it would be to shield the processor of your car?....

wrap it in aluminum foil?

only problem I can see with putting a Faraday cage around the processor is all the wires running to and from would act as antennas, giving more surface area and picking up more of the induced current.... wonder if there is a EASY way of creating a breaker of sorts that could flip under this situation... I think speed is the killer... it has to be able to open VERY quickly

This raises a point I've wondered about, regarding the EMP-induced voltage-
In order for current to flow, it needs voltage to push it, and a complete circuit. So, say I have a nice, simple example of an unshielded electric motor, but it's turned off via relay, which breaks the circuit on both wires going to the motor armature (and to keep it REAL simple, let's say it's a permanent magnet field- no windings). EMP hits it- how would this fare, with no complete circuit? I'm not propsing relays as an answer to surviving the EMP as a response, I've never seen a mechanical device THAT fast, but as a protection method for a 'ready state', when not actually in use.

Well, I think at this point you'd get more mileage by wrapping MadMichiganer in foil but...

OK, so we're going to back up and then take a running start at this.

Voltage is a potential, a lot like altitude for water in a pipe. When you have two different voltages at two different places, this creates a potential gradient (like water in a watertower vs your kitchen faucet). If you connect the two with a conductor, you will get electrons moving around until the potential gradient is equalized (flattened) (water running through the pipe until the water tower is drained and your kitchen is flooded). So you had TEMPORARY current flow through the conductor in order to equalize the potential gradient. As soon as the gradient is equalized or the force causing it is removed, the current flow stops. A special case of this with a loop of conductor (complete circuit) and an artificially maintained voltage gradient is what we call electric power. So, the EMP creates a fleeting potential gradient. We express this gradient in terms of killoVolts per meter (kV/m). This gives us the data necessary to figure out what happens next. Say the EMP creates a field of 50kV/m at your location. If you had a wire of any length or path (so a wadded up extension cord that happens to have its ends well away from each other counts) who's endpoints were separated by 1m, there would be a 50kV potential difference between the ends of the wire. If you then knew the resistance of the wire, you could calculate the current flow through it. Given the current flow through it, you could calculate if it would melt or not. That explanation is too simple for EMPs, though. That idea assumes we're keeping the 50kV/m field steady for a long time, so it basically resembles DC voltage and we get to use the DC resistance of the wire (which is going to be really low). However, EMP events are really, really short. The potential field only exists for a split second. This means it looks like AC voltage and we need to use the complex reactance plus the resistance of the wire to figure out how much current will flow through it. The reactance depends on the exact frequencies in question. Then, that current flow has to persist long enough to cause sufficient heating to melt the conductor. So, the two things to take away from this are that long wires get hammered harder (which is why this is a real threat to the electric grid but not so much to your pocket calculator) and that it has to go on long enough to overheat the circuit in question (and EMPs are quite short in duration).

Looking at your motor, first of all, voltage gradient and therefore current flow are going to be induced in it even if it's not connected to anything else. However, no parts of the motor are very far from each other, so the gradient will be (comparatively) small. The gradient and current flow will also not last terribly long, so not much heating will result. The wiring in an electric motor is usually pretty thick compared to its length (since motors are comparatively high-current devices) and that thickness gives them extra ability to withstand high current transients. Take that all together and your electric motor is not something I'd worry about getting zapped by an EMP.

However, to look at your question another way, the electric grid IS likely to be affected and does have a tradition of not failing gracefully. If you happen to have your electric motor plugged into the grid at the time the EMP happens, the death throes of the grid might just put the whammy on your motor through entirely mundane means, so disconnecting it when you're not using it is a good idea if for no more reason than lightning strikes and other insults causing the grid to spaz out.

[Projo]

This thread makes me think of 'Starfish Prime.' Several things happen when a nuclear weapon detonates, the impact felt is determened by the type of device, magnatude, altitude, etc. EMP and TREE will happen, but electronics can be hardened against it. There are types of grounding and paint that can protect assets against EMP. They are tested on a regular basis.
http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.NAVAIRNewsStory&id=2321

[whisk.e.rebellion]

I am hearing that there is a treaty in the works to reduce the US arsenal to 300 warheads. That translates to roughly 6x SSBN-726 'Ohio' class submarines with each Trident-II D-5 carrying 2 reentry vehicles, and 12 warheads as floaters (either a partially utilized Minuteman-3 LLC, cruise missiles, or gravity-bombs). I am concerned that the accoustic signature of the Ohios and our other submarines have been compromised, negating their only protection, their stealth. I see this treaty passing with Harry Ried and the Democrats running the Senate, if it hasn't already been signed.

Hey, buddy. Check out our rules and check your politics at the door, please.

[Foxy]

Does this mean my ACOG won't work?

No, silly... Simply means you will need to replace your ACOG's cr123's with the ones you stored in your Farraday cage. You did store your cr123's in your Farraday cage, right????

Does this mean my ACOG won't work?

If it uses semiconductors (as in Light Emitting Diodes), yep... I myself prefer the dual-illuminated trijicons or the Leatherman Camputer scope.

Holy hell, I was going to say exactly the same thing, below in green is the post I had all written and was ready to submit before I realized and read the second page to this thread

No I think even if you replaced the batteries on you ACOG, the internal circuitry would still be toast,I couldn't find any any circuit diagrams on the web but I assume that it contains an at least an IC chip that would be gone not to mention the LED used to light the recital.

However for those of us using fiber optic sites like the trijicon it would be business as usual
Dammit why cant I afford nice things like a trijicon scope?!

On topic: I'm probably gonna end up storing my radios and comm stuff in a steel paint can because it's tough water proof and I have a few so they are stack-able. Then I got to thinking, I store most of this stuff under my sink, why not attach a wire to the pipe to ground it and hay presto instant feriday cage!

[Weps]

I've done some studying myself on the wide subject matter of Nuclear Armaments.

I've got a stash of DoE, DoD, NRC, and some private firm studies/documents from the 1950's to 1990's that I scored in PDF format.

I'm in the process of putting it into a downloadable RAR or ZIP file configuration.



Me personally? I unfortunately don't have the funds to really prepare for an EMP/CME.

In the event that the majority of comms and electronics are toast, I'll be enacting my simple back-up. Have at least one of everything in analog and if you don't, you didn't need it.

That way if it does happen and everything is wiped out, no worries. If it does and most things survive, no worries.

Just think of it as a life long camping trip in the traditional "roughing it" style.


However, one thing I feel is very important is at least having a Geiger counter/survey meter. If not for use after an attack, then at least for use to detect radiation from damaged casks caught up while being shipped, nuclear power facilities that have sustained damaged, laboratories that stored or utilized radioactive materials, ect...

Plus I'm a big "Cold War" buff.

[MadMichigander13]

This thread makes me think of 'Starfish Prime.' Several things happen when a nuclear weapon detonates, the impact felt is determened by the type of device, magnatude, altitude, etc. EMP and TREE will happen, but electronics can be hardened against it. There are types of grounding and paint that can protect assets against EMP. They are tested on a regular basis.
http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.NAVAIRNewsStory&id=2321

The question is: Can civilians afford, let alone have access to such materials?

[MadMichigander13]

I've done some studying myself on the wide subject matter of Nuclear Armaments.

I've got a stash of DoE, DoD, NRC, and some private firm studies/documents from the 1950's to 1990's that I scored in PDF format.

I'm in the process of putting it into a downloadable RAR or ZIP file configuration.



Me personally? I unfortunately don't have the funds to really prepare for an EMP/CME.

In the event that the majority of comms and electronics are toast, I'll be enacting my simple back-up. Have at least one of everything in analog and if you don't, you didn't need it.

That way if it does happen and everything is wiped out, no worries. If it does and most things survive, no worries.

Just think of it as a life long camping trip in the traditional "roughing it" style.


However, one thing I feel is very important is at least having a Geiger counter/survey meter. If not for use after an attack, then at least for use to detect radiation from damaged casks caught up while being shipped, nuclear power facilities that have sustained damaged, laboratories that stored or utilized radioactive materials, ect...

Plus I'm a big "Cold War" buff.

Look forward to seeing it. Thanks