Poisoned & Infected Bullets?

[KnightoftheRoc]

How about if my buddy is grappling/wrestling with a zombie, someone dumps a headshot into the ZED, and an oddly-deflected through-and-through inoculates my friend with the zombie virus...

Jamie

Then you'll be needing a "follow up shot"...

I could see a chemical compound poisoning the bullet wound, and, depending on the poison, a possibly quick death, or a slow, agonizing death- it would depend on how bad the shooter dislikes you. "Infected" bullets would probably end in death from the gunshot faster than an infection could do it, but for a story, I could maybe see using infected hollow points to get an infected body back inside the enemy compound, assuming they collect their dead. A sort of Trojan Horse delivery method.

In a living victim, an infection had better be impervious to normal medications, as the medico removing the bullet is going to treat for infection, as a normal matter of course. Combat medics treat right on site, and that's before the bullet is even removed under better conditions. So, just in getting the bullet out, the wound's been treated twice for infection, at a minimum. Add in IV meds and/or pills in the after-care treatment, and most lil' buggers don't really stand a chance.

[Einher]

<snip>

<snip> in this case = some truly wise shit.



SCIENCE!

[VeniVidiVici]

There are some pretty stupid comments in this thread.

You are so right. For example, someone wrote this gem:

A lot of organisms can survive under the extreme pressure and high tempature you would experience in a gun. Anyone who passed 6th grade biology would be aware of them.

You wrote organisms, which is plural, so go ahead and name two different organisms that survive in a non-aqueous environment at 160 to 170 degrees C. That is the ignition temperature of nitrocellulose. Forget the pressure issue, forget the mechanical friction, forget the absence of water; and lets just focus on the temperature issue. Name two.

No, don't name two. I am just teasing. And now, more teasing.

Nothing in my post is even remotely related to the information you have cited. Why would the "assassin" insert "poison" inside the case of the cartridge? He would have no delivery method. It makes no sense just like your incoherent ramblings that have ridiculous stipulations inserted into them. Nice try. If you really wanted to troll me you would have mentioned the temperature a fast moving bullet would be (likely far higher than 170 degrees C depending on ambient temp/friciton form wind etc etc) exiting the barrel, g-forces, etc.. but you didn't because you aren't nearly as competent as you believe you are. Even IF you did I would simply deflect your assertion and claim the OP didn't specify which type of caliber or weapon was used and would make fun of you just like I am doing now. Read carefully or at least try and bait someone into a corner before making a fool of yourself next time. Learn to troll.

No, don't learn to troll. I am just teasing. And now, more teasing.

ETA: I'm sure you will impress the idiots of the forum who don't bother researching for themselves though. So kudos to you.

[MacAttack]

I wonder if water-bears would survive the flight time in a hollow point?

From wiki

"Tardigrades (commonly known as waterbears or moss piglets)[2] form the phylum Tardigrada, part of the superphylum Ecdysozoa. They are small, water-dwelling, segmented animals with eight legs. Tardigrades were first described by Johann August Ephraim Goeze in 1773 (kleiner Wasserbär = little water bear). The name Tardigrada means "slow walker" and was given by Lazzaro Spallanzani in 1777. The name water bear comes from the way they walk, reminiscent of a bear's gait. The biggest adults may reach a body length of 1.5 millimetres (0.059 in), the smallest below 0.1 mm. Freshly hatched larvae may be smaller than 0.05 mm.

Some 1,150 species of tardigrades have been described.[3][4] Tardigrades occur over the entire world, from the high Himalayas[5] (above 6,000 metres (20,000 ft)), to the deep sea (below 4,000 metres (13,000 ft)) and from the polar regions to the equator.

The most convenient place to find tardigrades is on lichens and mosses. Other environments are dunes, beaches, soil, and marine or freshwater sediments, where they may occur quite frequently (up to 25,000 animals per litre). Tardigrades often can be found by soaking a piece of moss in spring water.[6]

Tardigrades are able to survive in extreme environments that would kill almost any other animal. Some can survive temperatures of close to absolute zero (−273 °C (−459 °F)),[7] temperatures as high as 151 °C (304 °F), 1,000 times more radiation than other animals,[8] and almost a decade without water.[9] Since 2007, tardigrades have also returned alive from studies in which they have been exposed to the vacuum of outer space for a few days in low earth orbit.[10][11]"

[Trent]

Chlorine gas, radiation, water bears....the places a thread goes when you're out for a day.


Onto the original question...does the survival of viruses, bacteria, and common toxins seem very plausible? Would a shotgun shell (what the fictional character was wounded by) be any different than a regular round? I see responses taking both sides here. On one hand, there is indeed a massive amount of heat and pressure. On the other, would such forces be hitting the entire surface with enough power to sterilize it?

Come to think of it, I might be able to experiment this for myself. Place a few rounds in something absolutely filthy and disease ridden (suggestions?), keeping some others in the box as a control. Put on gloves, then fire a few clean and "dirty" rounds into a cleaned surface, retrieving the lead immediately afterward. After that, stick the lead and some controls in agar, and see if there is a significant difference.

Would at least answer the question for bacteria.

[Einher]

Chlorine gas, radiation, water bears....the places a thread goes when you're out for a day. it's about to die.

FTFY.

Onto the original question...does the survival of viruses, bacteria, and common toxins seem very plausible? Would a shotgun shell (what the fictional character was wounded by) be any different than a regular round?

Kind of; Typically the projectile of a shotgun shell will be buffered by a wad of plastic/cardboard that will separate from the shot/slug shortly after exiting the barrel which is usually (but not always) smoothbore.

Conventional bullets (rifles and pistols) escaping a rifled barrel will experience friction from the rifling in addition to direct contact with combustion forces produced from the propellent gases it is seated directly behind/in front of.

I see responses taking both sides here. On one hand, there is indeed a massive amount of heat and pressure. On the other, would such forces be hitting the entire surface with enough power to sterilize it?

I am sticking to my original position. I personally find the question/situation posed by the OP is implausible, though somewhat possible.
In this case, means of delivery is everything. Some projectiles will obviously have a better chance of spreading contagion than others.

Come to think of it, I might be able to experiment this for myself. Place a few rounds in something absolutely filthy and disease ridden (suggestions?), keeping some others in the box as a control. Put on gloves, then fire a few clean and "dirty" rounds into a cleaned surface, retrieving the lead immediately afterward. After that, stick the lead and some controls in agar, and see if there is a significant difference.

Would at least answer the question for bacteria.

Human Excrement (as that is the most historically common pollutant I am aware of being used in this fashion), a pitri dish, produce bacteria cultures from test and control samples (contaminated and non-contaminated), and double blind testing if you want to really turn heads.

As there have been concerns expressed from moderators/admin staff that this thread is approaching the breaking point (in terms of policy); I'm really more interested in knowing whether or not poisoned or contaminated projectiles are truly feasible of being a risk to me than discussing which may actually work or how to produce them.

Not that I think my opinion will matter in the face of larger concerns, but I'd be interested in prevention measures if I thought it was more possible than I currently consider it to be (which I consider to be very, very low).

edited: speling.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Chlorine gas, radiation, water bears....the places a thread goes when you're out for a day.


Onto the original question...does the survival of viruses, bacteria, and common toxins seem very plausible? Would a shotgun shell (what the fictional character was wounded by) be any different than a regular round? I see responses taking both sides here. On one hand, there is indeed a massive amount of heat and pressure. On the other, would such forces be hitting the entire surface with enough power to sterilize it?

Come to think of it, I might be able to experiment this for myself. Place a few rounds in something absolutely filthy and disease ridden (suggestions?), keeping some others in the box as a control. Put on gloves, then fire a few clean and "dirty" rounds into a cleaned surface, retrieving the lead immediately afterward. After that, stick the lead and some controls in agar, and see if there is a significant difference.

Would at least answer the question for bacteria.

A suggestion, if I may-
use hollow points, if you have them, and pack the hollow of them. I think that the outer surface layers of bacteria may die in the heat and pressure of it being fired, but the layers under them would/should (?) survive the trip. This is my theory, anyway- there's a reason there's no "MD" following my name

[bigmattdaddywack]

Pre pack the hollow points with denim and other fabric.

Just found this
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018748/Norway-massacre-Anders-Behring-Breivik-Dum-dum-bullets-injected-poision.html

[bigmattdaddywack]

How about using some of this ju ju? I got it in the cart for you. edit it expired


It could be just as effective.
Also, the lock comes and I am in before.

[KnightoftheRoc]

needs a longer link...

[Einher]

How about using some of this ju ju? I got it in the cart for you. https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=eRYWalwdXRfnJIA3JCJAIOGnKts20gawcL7l82I7S3pOKEH0UELR93Nw-Ru&dispatch=50a222a57771920b6a3d7b606239e4d529b525e0b7e69bf0224adecfb0124e9b61f737ba21b08198394a36eb091078947b44ba9ddd4b06b8

It could be just as effective.
Also, the lock comes and I am in before.

FYI - From my end that is a link to nothing.

[bigmattdaddywack]

How about using some of this ju ju? I got it in the cart for you. https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=eRYWalwdXRfnJIA3JCJAIOGnKts20gawcL7l82I7S3pOKEH0UELR93Nw-Ru&dispatch=50a222a57771920b6a3d7b606239e4d529b525e0b7e69bf0224adecfb0124e9b61f737ba21b08198394a36eb091078947b44ba9ddd4b06b8

It could be just as effective.
Also, the lock comes and I am in before.

FYI - From my end that is a link to nothing.

Yeah it expired. I'll get rid of it.
How about this http://www.planetvoodoo.com/voodoo-death.htm

[Einher]

How about using some of this ju ju? I got it in the cart for you. https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=eRYWalwdXRfnJIA3JCJAIOGnKts20gawcL7l82I7S3pOKEH0UELR93Nw-Ru&dispatch=50a222a57771920b6a3d7b606239e4d529b525e0b7e69bf0224adecfb0124e9b61f737ba21b08198394a36eb091078947b44ba9ddd4b06b8

It could be just as effective.
Also, the lock comes and I am in before.

FYI - From my end that is a link to nothing.

Yeah it expired. I'll get rid of it.
How about this http://www.planetvoodoo.com/voodoo-death.htm

Whoa whoa whoa, magic is a whole diff'rent thang.

I never said combustion pressures/temperatures are going to do anything against someone like Gandalf... Voldemort... David Copperfield... etc.

[bigmattdaddywack]

I was actually looking for specific potions and shit that some of those crazy bastards might put on or curse their bullets with. Who knows? Maybe the chemical properties of such concoctions might be effective. BTW, I only found bullet protection spells (which I am gonna try and do a review on except the cross-dressing the Liberian teenage cannibals used in their most recent war ). The bullet death potions might work on Frodo but not on no Elf or Gandalf.

btw Voodoo spells and potions should be cool to talk about because we are ZOMBIE Squad.

[Liff]

One of the best quotes on ZS:

Fuck it, I'm out.

Fuck ya'll, keep on doing your stupid fucking thing. I'm done.

EDIT: Nope, can't let it go.

I'm back. Dammit.

Some stupid troll shit.

Serious now, no teasing: Name two organisms that can survive in the non-aqueous temperature that gunpowder ignites at. Or you could stop insulting people, or you could STFU. I would personally would like to see you just STFU though.

MacAttack, interesting info there. Unfortunately, tardigrades are non-pathogenic and do not survive at 160degrees C. Very close though.

Regular Guy: I am sorry I posted the pedantic semantic bs that I posted in reply to your statement. I was teasing and I knew what you meant. I am sorry I opened that can of worms. My fault. Sorry again.



At this point no one is asking the intelligent question. Don't ask, "Can this be done?" but instead ask, "Should this be done?" If you are going to shoot an animal on two legs that is attacking you, like a brown bear standing on it's hind legs, do you want the bear to stop right now or do you want the bear to die in a few days? Are we actually debating that question? Just shoot again. "Acute lead toxicity" is the poison you want to give the bear.

Aside from the 'bug out to Walmart' idea, this has got to be the next most dumb idea in the history of this board. If you were hunting, would you want to eat a diseased, poisoned, or radioactive animal? If you were in court explaining yourself in a different type of situation, how well do you think that would go?

Fucking stupid idea is Fucking stupid. And we wonder why some other people out there make fun of ZS as a bunch of idiots. I read a thread on a different forum about how to turn yourself into a suicide bomber and decided that it was probably time for me to find some different people to chat and debate with. Then I found ZS. If I found this thread when I was looking, I think I would probably just keep moving along.

In short: This thread is stupid and I am embarrassed that I am part of it.

Fuck it, I'm out.

Fuck ya'll, keep on doing your stupid fucking thing. I'm done.

I will try to stay out again. Sorry for my addition to this stupid idea/thread.

[Regular Guy]

Regular Guy: I am sorry I posted the pedantic semantic bs that I posted in reply to your statement. I was teasing and I knew what you meant. I am sorry I opened that can of worms. My fault. Sorry again.

No worries bro, seriously, no worries at all. I am and can be too serious*. No need for apologies but thanks for that anyway. I didn't want anyone else getting the wrong idea about what I was saying, that's all. I wasn't really responding to anyone in particular.

*Think butthurt over little things, it's a personal issue not associated with one thing but past events when I was .mil. I've gotten a lot better about it but I can and do fly off the handle over nothing. Yeah, I need to take a breath every once and a while.

[VeniVidiVici]

Some stupid troll shit.

Serious now, no teasing: Name two organisms that can survive in the non-aqueous temperature that gunpowder ignites at. Or you could stop insulting people, or you could STFU. I would personally would like to see you just STFU though.
Fuck ya'll, keep on doing your stupid fucking thing. I'm done.

I will try to stay out again. Sorry for my addition to this stupid idea/thread.[/quote]

My post had nothing to do with what you claimed which is why I called you on it. All I claimed was that some organisms can survive high temperature and extreme pressures. You are incompetent. Your assertion has no basis since the inside of the case is not the delivery method for the organism itself and it would not subject to the conditions inside of it even though I NEVER made that claim. Don't troll people if you get butthurt after being addressed.

ETA: Here is my ONLY claim.

A lot of organisms can survive under the extreme pressure and high temperature you would experience in a gun

Are you saying that there are NO conditions inside a gun where organisms can exsist?

[Liff]

Nope, can't let it go.

After I write this:

Serious now, no teasing: Name two organisms that can survive in the non-aqueous temperature that gunpowder ignites at. Or you could stop insulting people, or you could STFU. I would personally would like to see you just STFU though.

You write this:

My post had nothing to do with what you claimed which is why I called you on it. All I claimed was that some organisms can survive high temperature and extreme pressures. You are incompetent. Your assertion has no basis since the inside of the case is not the delivery method for the organism itself and it would not subject to the conditions inside of it even though I NEVER made that claim. Don't troll people if you get butthurt after being addressed.

Seriously, please educate me. You made this claim:

A lot of organisms can survive under the extreme pressure and high tempature you would experience in a gun. Anyone who passed 6th grade biology would be aware of them.

STFU. You can't behave like an adult when you are wrong, so just stfu. Insult me some more, sure. While you are at it, please name two organisms that can survive, "under the extreme pressure and high tempature you would experience in a gun."

OR, you could just stfu.

[bigmattdaddywack]

Honestly and seriously do these come close? I know they are not pathogenic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_smoker#Biological_communities

[DarkAxel]

A question for Liff here:

I'll agree that a double tap to the head beats shit-covered bullets to the leg any day, but I do have a few questions regarding the heat vs contaminants question. This is all academic here.

1. I understand that a high enough temperature will kill microorganisms and viruses, but I am also under the impression that time is a factor in heat sterilization as well. How accurate would you say that is?

2. Any idea exactly how hot a bullet gets while traveling down the barrel and through the air before hitting a target?

3. Wouldn't bullet spin throw off most of any contaminate that managed to survive getting out of the barrel?

[raptor]

Gang this thread has gone too far off track. I am locking this thread for Mod review.