Saiga 12 vs Remington 870 for Home Defense

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

home defense i would go with a pump action because the sound from the pump. In a defensive situation i want the other person to know that its loaded and ready to go and if you don't stop what your doing we are going to have a problem...
but this is coming from a guy who has a Winchester 1300

Please tell me you didn't base your home defense plan on the tired Hollywood "Shotgun pump sound" sending the bad guys running scared idea.

[flsgear]

Saiga 12.

Rate of fire, ease of reload. Relative AK-like simplicity. And one important factor people tend to forget - center of balance. Loading up a tube-feed gun with 7 rounds of 00 or Buck and Ball (as I prefer) makes for one front heavy gun. A magazine makes that considerably more manageable if you're having to keep it in some kind of ready position/unslung.

That said, I have an 870 at home.. primarily because A) I can't afford a new Toy and B) it was my grandfather's turkey gun.

Anecdote. My totally anal-retentive about safety stepfather had a saiga.. and somehow blew out a wine rack in the basement while trying to clear a jam. He promptly sold the saiga. I still, to this day, have no idea exactly how he managed that.

I also have his old stevens savage 124 with a straight pull bolt hah - DEFINITELY not recommended as a home defense gun. I'd sell it if it was worth more than 100 dollars. *EMOSIGH*

[We'reWolf]

home defense i would go with a pump action because the sound from the pump. In a defensive situation i want the other person to know that its loaded and ready to go and if you don't stop what your doing we are going to have a problem...
but this is coming from a guy who has a Winchester 1300

Please tell me you didn't base your home defense plan on the tired Hollywood "Shotgun pump sound" sending the bad guys running scared idea.

Jup thats the only reason why i bout it. Saw a hollywood movie and was like WOW bad people must not like this.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

home defense i would go with a pump action because the sound from the pump. In a defensive situation i want the other person to know that its loaded and ready to go and if you don't stop what your doing we are going to have a problem...
but this is coming from a guy who has a Winchester 1300

Please tell me you didn't base your home defense plan on the tired Hollywood "Shotgun pump sound" sending the bad guys running scared idea.

Jup thats the only reason why i bout it. Saw a hollywood movie and was like WOW bad people must not like this.

I really hope you're kidding.

Though, I have read reports of that actually working. I still think it's ridiculous, but if it works for you, then that's all that matters.

Getting back on topic, I'd say go for the 870. I currently use a Mossberg 500 as my HD shotgun with a RIA 1911 as back up.

It all depends on what you feel the most comfortable or have the most experience with.

[flsgear]

How do you hold the mossy 500 with such a short, stubby little chimp thumb? You've also got those big long fingers...

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

How do you hold the mossy 500 with such a short, stubby little chimp thumb? You've also got those big long fingers...

I have my ways, dude.

[We'reWolf]

home defense i would go with a pump action because the sound from the pump. In a defensive situation i want the other person to know that its loaded and ready to go and if you don't stop what your doing we are going to have a problem...
but this is coming from a guy who has a Winchester 1300

Please tell me you didn't base your home defense plan on the tired Hollywood "Shotgun pump sound" sending the bad guys running scared idea.

Jup thats the only reason why i bout it. Saw a hollywood movie and was like WOW bad people must not like this.

I really hope you're kidding.
Though, I have read reports of that actually working. I still think it's ridiculous, but if it works for you, then that's all that matters.
Getting back on topic, I'd say go for the 870. I currently use a Mossberg 500 as my HD shotgun with a RIA 1911 as back up.
It all depends on what you feel the most comfortable or have the most experience with.

guns also have a psychological intimidation. The sliding action of a shotgun is very distinct and loud. I honestly don't want to shoot someone and hoping when hearing this sound they would stop but again i don't have it for the sound of the slide or for looks, its for work not play. I would rather let my presence me known. And no i didn't base it off movies, I based it off interaction my family has been through and yes when my dad pumped the shotgun the person froze, so I would think that had something to do with it.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

guns also have a psychological intimidation. The sliding action of a shotgun is very distinct and loud. I honestly don't want to shoot someone and hoping when hearing this sound they would stop but again i don't have it for the sound of the slide or for looks, its for work not play. I would rather let my presence me known. And no i didn't base it off movies, I based it off interaction my family has been through and yes when my dad pumped the shotgun the person froze, so I would think that had something to do with it.

No worries, We'reWolf. I apologize if my comment struck a nerve with you.

If that's what works for you and your family, then that's all that matters.

[flsgear]

To be fair, I know a lot of people poo-poo the racking sound of a shotgun as 'non-intimidating' due primarily in part to the excellent article written on shotguns on this board.

However, I will say that there are examples of this actually working:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... n16346115/

"The shotgun in and of itself is an intimidating weapon, and it will get the attention of a crowd by merely chambering a round. My Soldiers would many times use an unloaded shotgun for this very reason. We found that people responded very quickly and quietly when they heard the bolt close on the shotgun."

My own wife, the first time I showed her the shotgun and racked it actually physically flinched. And she's a pretty tough bird So yeah. I mean it's not like we're all going against hardened warfighters so sometimes that extra psychological edge helps. Also yelling out "I have a gun" ... you could be lying. Racking the slide helps reaffirm you're not lying and it's hard to deny that an 870 has one loud ass slide.

[We'reWolf]

No worries, We'reWolf. I apologize if my comment struck a nerve with you.

If that's what works for you and your family, then that's all that matters.

lol no problem, very rare things i base off hollywood movies but i would have to say zombie Apocalypse would be one

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

No worries, We'reWolf. I apologize if my comment struck a nerve with you.

If that's what works for you and your family, then that's all that matters.

lol no problem, very rare things i base off hollywood movies but i would have to say zombie Apocalypse would be one

Same here.

[The Commander]

OH, if only I could go back to when this was first posted when Saiga 12s were under $400. I kick myself for not getting one. Damn fool!!!!!

[Vanniek71]

For all the people saying Saiga 12's....... just a question, do you have any experience with them?

Yes they are fun, but it takes a LOT of work to get them operating reliably 100% of the time (its fun, but it is a lot of work). Right out of the box they are not the most reliable shotguns on the planet. They look cool, and the idea of them is very cool, but the reliability is plain SHIT when you get them brand new. I am not bashing the Saiga here, I had one, and have done all the work and will buy another, but they are a gun that you buy knowing you are going to have to "fix it up" to get what you want out of it. I have seen many people disappointed at the out of the box performance of their Saigas.

The Remington 870 on the other hand, you need to do NOTHING to in order to have a reliable home defense shotgun. It's not as bad ass looking as the Saiga, it doesn't have the "potential" of a Saiga either, but what it does have compared to the Saiga is superior reliability out of the box. The 870 has the benefit of the KISS principle.

Anyways just saying if I was using it for home defense, and my life was potentially on the line, there is no question the Remington 870 is the better choice hands down. Point, pull, bang is what I am looking for. And if 8 rounds of 12 gauge 00 buck can't fix the situation I am in, I am up the creek anyways.

[DarkAxel]

home defense i would go with a pump action because the sound from the pump. In a defensive situation i want the other person to know that its loaded and ready to go and if you don't stop what your doing we are going to have a problem...
but this is coming from a guy who has a Winchester 1300

Thanks to my state's Castle Doctrine, the only warning an intruder is going to get from me is verbal, and if they persist, then they get shot.

OT: gimme the Saiga.

[Bearcat]

I was using it for home defense, and my life was potentially on the line, there is no question the Remington 870 is the better choice hands down. Point, pull, bang is what I am looking for. And if 8 rounds of 12 gauge 00 buck can't fix the situation I am in, I am up the creek anyways.

In case there is need for a follow up shot the repetition for a pump would be, point, pull, bang, pump, pull, bang, pump, etc. With a saiga, it would be point, pull, bang, pull, bang, etc. One less step for murphy's law to intercede.

The Saiga is kinda difficult to reload, the safety position sucks, and the charging handle position sucks. Its pretty much the same grievances I have with the AK but, other than that they are awesome shotguns. I just don't see a huge advantage in the magazine fed shotgun considering how large and heavy they are with a very small increase in magazine capacity of typical HD type pump actions.

Because this is for a home defense application, ideally the weapon will be loaded and charged. So the ergos of the controls is a moot point until you need to reload which would still be faster than reloading a pump, albeit with training. I train with an AK so the manual of arms for the saiga is almost identical.

[Vanniek71]

In case there is need for a follow up shot the repetition for a pump would be, point, pull, bang, pump, pull, bang, pump, etc. With a saiga, it would be point, pull, bang, pull, bang, etc. One less step for murphy's law to intercede.

thanks for the clarification on that.......


What I'm saying is with a Saiga unless you can break it in, and work on it, is more like a bang...FTE, fix, re-rack, bang, FTE....

Reliability out of the box the Remington 870 kills the Saiga

(I will say that any gun should be broken in, but if we are talking reliability and proven design the Remington wins......yes the saiga is built on a AK platform, no the Saiga is not as reliable as an AK in any way shape or form)

[squinty]

I like the 870, had one I really enjoyed, and it will work for self defense.

No experience with the Saiga. I use a tube fed semiauto, and feel confident with it. I would prefer a reliable semi over a pump, for reasons already stated. With SD ammo that I knew from experience fed and functioned perfectly in that particular firearm, and had carefully patterned at various distances.

ETA: why is it that only the sound of a pump gun is supposed to provoke atavistic fear in the hearts of evildoers? Would the sound of a bolt slamming home as you charged your semi not be a sufficiently gunny-scary noise? Note: I'm not advocating reliance on the noise your weapon makes as a tactic - just wondering why it is that only pump shotguns are thought to sound scary.

[Einher]

This an old thread containing an even older debate.
I've seen enough of these threads that I should have learned my lesson by now since half of them turn into shit-fights to be L&B, and the other half die a natural death only to be resurrected/necro'd years after the fact.
I'm in a gambling mood at the moment, so guess I'll play the game one more time even though it always ends the same way.

Ultimately, everyone wants something different.

Pumps are desirable for their traditional familiarity and low price (among other reasons), Auto's are desirable for the increased volume of fire/rate of fire.
Tube-magazines keep the weapon profile slim, Box-magazines make for very fast full capacity reloads and tend to hold more shells (especially with a drum).

When I initially bought my Saiga-12 for defense I had probably already realized that the increase in volume of fire was worth more to me (obviously not necessarily to anyone else) than familiarity or tradition, and being able to replenish the weapons entire shell capacity in a (more or less) simple action seemed more advantageous to me than reloading the tube-magazine a shell at a time.

I'm sure everyone has their own reasons for sticking to what they use, and everyone has different considerations.
Considerations for some will be about affordability, while others may be restricted from owning a particular firearm in their area of residence, etc.

My final advice is to ponder the statement "To each their own" and leave it at that.

[Bearcat]

In case there is need for a follow up shot the repetition for a pump would be, point, pull, bang, pump, pull, bang, pump, etc. With a saiga, it would be point, pull, bang, pull, bang, etc. One less step for murphy's law to intercede.

thanks for the clarification on that.......


What I'm saying is with a Saiga unless you can break it in, and work on it, is more like a bang...FTE, fix, re-rack, bang, FTE....

Reliability out of the box the Remington 870 kills the Saiga

(I will say that any gun should be broken in, but if we are talking reliability and proven design the Remington wins......yes the saiga is built on a AK platform, no the Saiga is not as reliable as an AK in any way shape or form)

I agree it definitely needs to be tuned and broken in first. Out of the box reliability goes to the 870. But once that's fixed I think the saiga wins.

[We'reWolf]

ETA: why is it that only the sound of a pump gun is supposed to provoke atavistic fear in the hearts of evildoers? Would the sound of a bolt slamming home as you charged your semi not be a sufficiently gunny-scary noise? Note: I'm not advocating reliance on the noise your weapon makes as a tactic - just wondering why it is that only pump shotguns are thought to sound scary.

i mean if they could hear your bolt slamming, the action is just louder and more noticeable. Pump shot guns are many things but quite they are not

[squinty]

ETA: why is it that only the sound of a pump gun is supposed to provoke atavistic fear in the hearts of evildoers? Would the sound of a bolt slamming home as you charged your semi not be a sufficiently gunny-scary noise? Note: I'm not advocating reliance on the noise your weapon makes as a tactic - just wondering why it is that only pump shotguns are thought to sound scary.

i mean if they could hear your bolt slamming, the action is just louder and more noticeable. Pump shot guns are many things but quite they are not

Eh, moot point for me anyway. Unless they could hear the tiny *click* of a safety moved over to fire, my weapon won't make any scary noise - unless and until I make it go Boom!

If I feel like a warning is necessary or profitable, I'll have to content myself with calling out.

OT: I haven't heard any suggestions for a shotgun that won't work for home defense. Like Einherjrar said, we all have our reasons, and no reason to get in snits about our differences of opinion. Hopefully if we share our different reasons for one choice or the other, it will help the OP decide. But whichever he picks, he'll end up with a twelve gauge shotgun. Ima not break into his house.

Consensus in the thread seems to be -870 for out of the box reliability, jury friendly appearance and price, but load and practice to handle the recoil, and get proficient enough that you won't short stroke it even when panicked.
Saiga for recoil mitigation, reloading and rate of fire, but break it in well and extensively test your home defense loads before relying on them.

Did I miss anything? Wonder what the OP finally got?

[Dave_M]

Did I miss anything? Wonder what the OP finally got?

This thread is 3 years old. OP probably got probation for wife beating and has an airsoft or a recording of a shotgun racking or something

Come on now, you can't be that new to internet forums!

[squinty]

Did I miss anything? Wonder what the OP finally got?

This thread is 3 years old. OP probably got probation for wife beating and has an airsoft or a recording of a shotgun racking or something

Come on now, you can't be that new to internet forums!

[cheech_sp]

I agree it definitely needs to be tuned and broken in first. Out of the box reliability goes to the 870. But once that's fixed I think the saiga wins.

In the past, the 870's reliability was not questioned, but recently there have been quite a few reports of FTE jams with new 870's (mine included). They probably just need to be broken in now, but they aren't quite as 'ready out of the box' as they used to be.