Bowmanship Thread

[Quietus]

Well.. Seems we have been through most types of bows in the past 9 pages. So I will now throw something different into the mix.

I had to cancel a session this morning due to weather issues and not really that much work at the computer waiting. So naturally, instead of finding something productive to do, I made some fresh coffee, got out the biscuits and proceeded to waste time on youtube
After about an hour, I ended up at some random video about the so called slingbow. These seem to have become quite popular lately and the idea seems solid enough. But every time I have seen one, all I can think is that it is still just a slingshot with a bit of string on it. After a couple of decades of archery, I don't think I could get used to that. Especially since a mechanical release seems to be necessary.

That got me thinking. The basic idea of the slingbow is not bad. It's very small and light and seems to work pretty well. But the form factor means that experienced archers would have to learn new techniques and then spend time practising them on a regular basis, while still keeping up their archery. At least for us traditional archers who rely on muscle memory and "instinct".
Perhaps something in between would be useful?

I did a bit of googling, but came up with nothing. I found plenty of slingbows and regular bows, but nothing that breaches the gap between the two.
I did a bit of doodling over lunch and came up with something that might work.
So I found some scrap wood and a few other things and started glueing stuff together.
After about 30 minutes of work (and 2 hours for the glue to dry ), this is what I had:


Quietus's slingbow/bow crossover. Shown with 283/4 inch arrow for size comparison.
Please disregard the rough state of it. It still needs a lot of work before it looks halfway decent.

It is a very simple takedown design. 33.8 inches overall and about 15.5 inches when disassembled. Drawlength has been tested to 32 inches.
The limbs are held on with one bolt at one end and tied down at the other.
I don't have a vast variety of rubber on hand, so I did the best I could with what I had (the yellow parts of the string).
It currently has a drawweight of just under 30 lbs, but I'm pretty sure I can get it up to around 60 lbs when I find some better bands.
The cast however, is quite fast.
I haven't had much chance to test it yet (only about 20 arrows), But it seems pretty consistent. The draw is very smooth and it feels very much like a bow and not a slingshot.

So.. What do you guys think? Does it have a future?

[ForgeCorvus]

Shooting off the knuckle or a rest?
Finger or mechanical release?

Joerg uses Theraband (?) in the gold colour in his monsters, perhaps it would be good for this (design might need beefing up though)

Like the idea, execution is pretty good looking. More field trials and some clinical target work are needed.
Could you post materials and sizes so we can all have a go?

Any chance of a Vid ?

[Regular Guy]

Alright, I think I've found the bow for me. A Martin takedown jaguar with 30 and 55# limbs. Thoughts?

[Quietus]

Shooting off the knuckle or a rest?

Off the knuckle. I think I will incorporate a rest in the 1.1 model.

Finger or mechanical release?

Finger. I don't like to use a mechanical release unless I'm shooting a compound. As this one has a pretty low drawweight, I have just used one finger above and one below the arrow so far (to minimise string pinch). But when I get it to the target drawweight of 60 lbs (should be plenty for something like this), a thumb ring will be used.
Thumb or mechanical release is really the only good options for something this short.

Joerg uses Theraband (?) in the gold colour in his monsters, perhaps it would be good for this (design might need beefing up though)

Like the idea, execution is pretty good looking. More field trials and some clinical target work are needed.
Could you post materials and sizes so we can all have a go?

I will have to look into those bands. I don't have much experience in rubber powered weapons, But he seems to know what he is doing. so if they work for him, I'm sure they will work for me.

This was just a quick beta test, so I didn't do anything to make it look good. But it has shown me that it can work, so I will be making a proper one soon. It is actually a surprisingly strong design and strength is the reason I spend the extra time laminating the limbs to a slight recurve shape. This one should easily survive 50-60 lbs, but the next one will be made stronger. I wanted to keep it light, but since the beta is only 6.2 ounces, I think I have a bit of room to play still.

As for materials. Any decent wood will do really. It doesn't need to do anything other than not break.

Unfortunately I don't do video. But I will test it thoroughly.

[northernxposure]

Alright, I think I've found the bow for me. A Martin takedown jaguar with 30 and 55# limbs. Thoughts?

Samick Sage or GTFO.

(I never get to do that to Regular Guy...)

Seriously, the Jaguar is a decent enough bow but is very rough - it's got a cast magnesium riser, is set up to use a raised rest (most likely something like a NAP Centershot or the equivalent) due to it's offset riser. The limb attachment points are very rudimentary, they work, but the few models I've seen have a little bit of slop in them. Replacement limbs to change weight or purchase extras are difficult to find or purchase as the Jaguar was never really accepted. The Samick is much easier to deal with, can be shot off the shelf, looks nicer, and is a better length IMO.

Quietus -

That looks kinda like a Cascade GH Magnum:

http://www.cascadebow.com/page/page/2761608.htm

I like it a lot better than the slingshot version.

NXP

[Bunni]

I am a sling bow fan myself, but I love the beta bow you made. The only major thing a sling bow has over any other type of arrow launcher is that it is compact. You can pass a metal pin or screw through the pocket to knock your arrow on, and pull back on the 2 sides of the arrow just like a string. Shortening the pull length is really important for a better more bow like pull. Pull weight on my sling is only about 2o# so its not going to knock down a deer, but fish, birds and small game isn't a problem.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Not to further push this into a possible de-rail of the thread, but-
if you're going to include alternate arrow launching devices, why not go with an atlatl? Light, compact, durable, and nothing to break or wear out. About as packable as you could ask for, and capable of arrow speeds comparable to a lot of bows. Like anything else, there's a learning curve attached to it, but I could see it being of worth to a primitive mode hunter. The only downside I really see to it, is the ability to throw with it in denser undergrowth being a real limitation.

[Regular Guy]

Alright, I think I've found the bow for me. A Martin takedown jaguar with 30 and 55# limbs. Thoughts?

Samick Sage or GTFO.

(I never get to do that to Regular Guy...)

Awesome, the Samick Sage bow looks nice and they have limbs for $60. Any thoughts on getting 30# and 55# limbs? Too heavy? Too light? I'd like a set up for shooting in the yard and set up for actual hunting.

Thoughts?

[northernxposure]

Alright, I think I've found the bow for me. A Martin takedown jaguar with 30 and 55# limbs. Thoughts?

Samick Sage or GTFO.

(I never get to do that to Regular Guy...)

Awesome, the Samick Sage bow looks nice and they have limbs for $60. Any thoughts on getting 30# and 55# limbs? Too heavy? Too light? I'd like a set up for shooting in the yard and set up for actual hunting.

Thoughts?

Honestly, if you're a good sized guy that has reasonable muscle tone (which I'm sure you are) I'd go 40# and 55#. Reason, you need some fight in order to learn your anchor points and training your back muscles to draw the bow correctly. If it's too light, you'll cheat the draw and use your shoulders (which works with low poundage), but when you step up to heavier weight you start to run the risk of shoulder issues because you're not using the stronger muscles in the back. Also, IMO, it's easier to step up in weights if you keep them closer together, with no more of a spread than 15#.

If you want to gain weight fast, I've found the best is to step up in 8# increments until you get into the ~upper 60# area, and then you'll need to start doing some weight training and drop the weight increments down otherwise you'll start to do some damage. Keeping in mind, this is for hunting/target style archery that uses shorter bows where you are actively holding the bow back at full draw which you may need to do when hunting and animals become unpredictable - those English longbows are a different animal AFAIC.

55# will kill everything in North America. Except maybe a polar bear. I'm not sure on the polar bear. It's also MUCH easier to draw and hold when it's 20degs out and you've been sitting dead still for 3 hours.

YMMV

NXP

[Quietus]

55# will kill everything in North America. Except maybe a polar bear. I'm not sure on the polar bear. It's also MUCH easier to draw and hold when it's 20degs out and you've been sitting dead still for 3 hours.
NXP

It would be wise to consult local laws when it comes to hunting.
Around here we measure hunting bows in joules and for a 55 lbs bow to be legal for hunting anything other than rabbits and similar, it would have to be very fast, to compensate for the low drawweight.

[northernxposure]

55# will kill everything in North America. Except maybe a polar bear. I'm not sure on the polar bear. It's also MUCH easier to draw and hold when it's 20degs out and you've been sitting dead still for 3 hours.
NXP

It would be wise to consult local laws when it comes to hunting.
Around here we measure hunting bows in joules and for a 55 lbs bow to be legal for hunting anything other than rabbits and similar, it would have to be very fast, to compensate for the low drawweight.

There are a few states that have restrictions based on KE (Kinetic Energy, our version of your Joules), though most are draw weight specific with a minimum of 35# or 40# AT YOUR DL - so if you shoot a 40@28" bow but are only drawing 22", you won't meet the minimum state requirement as you're actually shoot much less than 40#. That's one of the reasons why hunting with a selfbow is very touch and go, even more so if you want to get into stone points (some states don't allow them at all, other have size requirements) and more "primitive" archery tackle. General rule of thumb is to make sure you shoot at least 40# at your draw length, then you really won't have issues.

I'd be interested to see what archery game laws are in Europe - I know that archery as a method of hunting was viewed for a long time as a poacher's tool and was not approved for a long time. If you have J/KE requirements, what are they (obviously these will be different depending on the country)? I was talking with a guy from France about archery hunting, he mentioned that they needed MUCH heavier bows which I thought was odd - well, not if you're using a compound, as a 70# compound is very common for hunting here, but 70# is much less common in hunting with traditional archery equipment. I believe the last poll I saw on TG put the bulk of the responses in the low 50's, with the next highest being the upper 40's, and then finally the upper 50's. Bows shooting over 60#'s for hunting where very low.

NXP

[Quietus]

I'd be interested to see what archery game laws are in Europe - I know that archery as a method of hunting was viewed for a long time as a poacher's tool and was not approved for a long time. If you have J/KE requirements, what are they (obviously these will be different depending on the country)? I was talking with a guy from France about archery hunting, he mentioned that they needed MUCH heavier bows which I thought was odd - well, not if you're using a compound, as a 70# compound is very common for hunting here, but 70# is much less common in hunting with traditional archery equipment. I believe the last poll I saw on TG put the bulk of the responses in the low 50's, with the next highest being the upper 40's, and then finally the upper 50's. Bows shooting over 60#'s for hunting where very low.

NXP

I'm not going to go over all the rules here, but lets take the Samick Sage that you suggested as an example.
For some reason I could only find speeds for that model, up to 40 lbs "28 inches with 472 grain arrow. In Denmark, you could not legally hunt anything with that. Nothing. Not even a squirrel.

Regardless of game, the absolute least amount of energy that a bow must produce (with approved arrow weight and head), is 40 joules. And higher categories have higher minimum energy requirements.

So there is a good reason why we use heavier traditional bows. As they are commonly not as fast as compounds (for the same drawweight), The only way to compensate, is to use a heavier bow.

Bow hunting also requires a licence (bows do not, but hunting with them does). After a theoretical exam, the practical test requires you to be able to correctly gauge distances by eye and consistently produce clean kill shots on 3d targets at various distances.
But before you get to that point, you need to complete a course which will usually take about 6 months. And you need to be a licensed hunter before you can start (rifle or shotgun).
This needs to be repeated every 5 years.

You also need to take the test, with the type of bow that you plan on hunting with. Logical, since a good compound archer might not no so well with a longbow.

I hope this helps shed some light on things

[Regular Guy]

Cool, nxp. I'll go 40 and 55#. I've never been called small or a wimp.

[northernxposure]

I'm not going to go over all the rules here, but lets take the Samick Sage that you suggested as an example.
For some reason I could only find speeds for that model, up to 40 lbs "28 inches with 472 grain arrow. In Denmark, you could not legally hunt anything with that. Nothing. Not even a squirrel.

Regardless of game, the absolute least amount of energy that a bow must produce (with approved arrow weight and head), is 40 joules. And higher categories have higher minimum energy requirements.

So there is a good reason why we use heavier traditional bows. As they are commonly not as fast as compounds (for the same drawweight), The only way to compensate, is to use a heavier bow.

Bow hunting also requires a licence (bows do not, but hunting with them does). After a theoretical exam, the practical test requires you to be able to correctly gauge distances by eye and consistently produce clean kill shots on 3d targets at various distances.
But before you get to that point, you need to complete a course which will usually take about 6 months. And you need to be a licensed hunter before you can start (rifle or shotgun).
This needs to be repeated every 5 years.

You also need to take the test, with the type of bow that you plan on hunting with. Logical, since a good compound archer might not no so well with a longbow.

I hope this helps shed some light on things

Thanks! That actually helps me understand things better for our friends across the pond.

I know I'm the minority, but I very much agree with the requirements that you stated to earn a hunting license. Up until about 5 years ago, there was no training requirement for bow hunting - in fact you could get a license (in my state) without completing the "gun" safety portion of Hunter's Safety (which is predominantly gun oriented - when I took it years and years ago there was no mention of archery in the course at all). Now there is a component for archery as it has really started to become more popular - traditionally archery seasons are much, much longer than their firearms season.

The only place I've been to that actively required a "test of competency" was hunting on military installations. If you couldn't hit the kill zone from multiple yards and elevation points, you were not granted a permit to hunt the base.

I'm interested in the J/KE thing though - do you base it off of manufacturer's specs, or can you build an arrow to meet the requirements? KE = 0.5(m*v^2), where J = (kg*(m/s^2)) if I'm not mistaken..

NXP

[Quietus]

The only place I've been to that actively required a "test of competency" was hunting on military installations. If you couldn't hit the kill zone from multiple yards and elevation points, you were not granted a permit to hunt the base.

As I see it, requiring hunters (any kind) to be competent enough to kill efficiently and humanely, should be part of every country's law. Just because we are higher up the food chain, doesn't give us the right to treat animals like inanimate objects.
I love hunting, but I believe that such things come with responsibility. The least I can do, is ensure that the deer who were unlucky enough to become my target, does not suffer needlessly.

I'm interested in the J/KE thing though - do you base it off of manufacturer's specs, or can you build an arrow to meet the requirements? KE = 0.5(m*v^2), where J = (kg*(m/s^2)) if I'm not mistaken..

NXP

Do you means manufactures specs on bows or arrows?

Arrows are build to each archers specifications (at least I don't know anyone who buys "off the rack" arrows").
As long as the heads comply with the rules, the only other thing to consider is the weight.

Then it is a simple matter of putting it through a chrono

I don't quite understand why you guys just go by drawweight. There are to many variables. between a Hoyt Carbon Element RKT (potentially my next compound ) and a longbow, there can be as much as 200 fps difference.

[ForgeCorvus]

Because draw-weight is easy to measure ?

Speed and Mass, throw a brick slow or a pea fast

What sort of weight are you looking at with one of your hunting arrows ?

The guy I bought my bow off, used it when he started shooting 'Standard Arrow'. Its only 75lbs @30 but it'll push an 802.5 grain (52 gram ) standard arrow out to 200 plus yards...... Or penetrate a foam target boss at about 40 yards (that was with a small broadhead .....He did get told never to do it again)

[northernxposure]

Do you means manufactures specs on bows or arrows?

Arrows are build to each archers specifications (at least I don't know anyone who buys "off the rack" arrows").
As long as the heads comply with the rules, the only other thing to consider is the weight.

Then it is a simple matter of putting it through a chrono

I don't quite understand why you guys just go by drawweight. There are to many variables. between a Hoyt Carbon Element RKT (potentially my next compound ) and a longbow, there can be as much as 200 fps difference.

I was referring to the manufacturer's specs - AMO or IBO. On most compounds out there, in the states we use IBO as it's the current ATA standard - 30" DL, 5gpp arrow, and it's resultant speed. The IBO number is the one that sells - everyone wants a fast bow, so that's how the bow manufacturers market them. I'd bet money that if you polled everyday archers in the states if they knew what the AMO of their bow was, they wouldn't know. If you asked them the IBO, they'd tell you immediately.

You're probably aware of AMO, so I won't get into that - and almost every recurve/traditional bow I've encountered is rated with AMO.

While I'd like to say that archer's do build the arrows to their desired specs, in reality it's not common here (at least in many many of the shops I've been to and purchase supplies from). They sell pre-fletched/inserted arrows in the 6 pack boxed, or by the dozen boxed, and it's not uncommon to see people take the box and a packet of their favorite broadhead and head out the door. Buying raw shafts and making them isn't common at all. Sure, the guys that are really into it will own an arrow cutter and buy the squaring devices and the high end fletchings, etc - but they're not the same guys that wander into the big box store and just grab a box off the shelf.

Do you all play the arrow weight game? Eg, stuffing the shafts with weight tubes, increasing the FOC with insert weights, the ol' shaft in a shaft trick to up your arrow weight and increase you efficiency?

It might be a terrible thing to say, but the sale of hunting licenses here in the states is big money. Many states are driven by the sale of license more than they are the ethical concerns of hunting the game. As such, they want a number, one that will preclude those that physically should not be out hunting with a bow, but not one so high that it keeps those that might be able to hunt from doing so.

To say that this isn't a factor would be lying - one of the largest arguments in archery hunting in the states is the inclusion of crossbows during a regular archery season. Crossbows bridge the gap around those that can't meet the requirements for bow hunting, and thus offer increases license sales.

I won't get into my personal views on this, other than to say that I personally don't think they should be allowed into an archery season (unless you are medically unable to pull back the minimum state requirement due to health or age) but have no problems at all allowing their use in firearms season.

*note* This could be construed as walking a political line, so I'll just leave that as that. *note*

IMO.

NXP

ETA - That Hoyt is bad ass. Makes the coolest sound even when you shoot it, there's just something about the carbon riser that doesn't have the traditional aluminum "hum" sound. I was surprised at the weight of it, though. Overall a really nice bow, just a lot of money for a neat idea.

[Regular Guy]

Proud dad moment. My son just got a perfect bullseye in an archery competition. Pics to follow. 7 m distance.

[Regular Guy]

Dead on. I'm going to buy him a Martin Genisis.

[Regular Guy]

Alright, I tried a traditional recurve bow @55#. Well, my shoulders did nothing but scream. Then I tried 55# compound by Martin. Sorry traditionalist but I'm going modern. It's twice as much as I budgeted so I'll have to wait.

[northernxposure]

RegGuy -

Tell your boy - AWESOME JOB!! Now to get that "group" a little tighter.

Just as an FYI, the Genesis bows (great bows by the way) are actually made by Mathews Archery for the NASP program. Martin's kid's bow is the Tiger (you don't want it, get the Genesis).

55#'s is a LOT for someone that's not really shot traditional archery before. Hence the constant "start with a lower poundage bow / leave your pride at the door / it's okay to get a 40# bow to learn on" comments you'll see so often. You're trying to use muscles you normally don't use - eventually you'll get stronger and it won't be an issue, but initially it's a bear.

Nothing at all wrong with a 60# compound bow - as fast and efficient as the newer cam designs have become, you're not really giving up too much over a 70# bow. Personally I think it's kind of funny - in the 80's we were all about 80# compounds, then in the 90's it was 70#'s, then about mid 2000 suddenly 60#'s.

What's your budget, there's a LOT of manufacturers out there - and with the new models be introduced in November, there's a lot of last years bows on the shelves that need to be moved out to make room for the new stuff. *If you weren't spending all your monies at PSA you could already have one*



NXP

[Doctorr Fabulous]

This is where the archers and archer wanna-be's hang out, right?

Okay, so where do i start. Like, if you were going to teach a student who's bow experience starts and ends with shooting plungers from a copper pipe and 550 cord (I got bored in Iraq) how would you start? Compound, recurve? What arrows? What other gear goes with it?

I'd like to learn to bowhunt someday, and fletch my own shafts someday (that sounded dirty...) but before that, I figured I'd come to you all for the "starter kit" advice. I'm not looking to compete or anything, and I should have plenty of room to start shooting when I get stateside.

[Regular Guy]

RegGuy -

Tell your boy - AWESOME JOB!! Now to get that "group" a little tighter.

What's your budget, there's a LOT of manufacturers out there - and with the new models be introduced in November, there's a lot of last years bows on the shelves that need to be moved out to make room for the new stuff. *If you weren't spending all your monies at PSA you could already have one*



NXP

Here's the bow he was using.

Yeaaahhhhh.....Not the greatest.
Well, my budget was $200 but I think I'm bump that to $350 considering I should get a compound. Yes, IF I could stay out of PSA I'd have a bow by now. I'm seriously considering blowing off a tax stamp and a lower then just getting a suppressor, tax stamp for it and a .22 Ruger MK3 with a threaded brl*. That would leave me with about $350 to spend on a bow, easily.

*Wrong thread for all that gun talk and lust.

[Regular Guy]

This is where the archers and archer wanna-be's hang out, right?

Okay, so where do i start. Like, if you were going to teach a student who's bow experience starts and ends with shooting plungers from a copper pipe and 550 cord (I got bored in Iraq) how would you start? Compound, recurve? What arrows? What other gear goes with it?

I'd like to learn to bowhunt someday, and fletch my own shafts someday (that sounded dirty...) but before that, I figured I'd come to you all for the "starter kit" advice. I'm not looking to compete or anything, and I should have plenty of room to start shooting when I get stateside.

I'm absolutely no expert but I'd have to say go recurve. You're a young strong guy who hasn't had 3 shoulder surgeries*, you could easily handle the recurve. I was just looking at some at a couple stores and they're just cool. The ones I was looking at were around $150 to $200. The lowest compound was $320.

*I'm strong but yeah, not so young and 3 shoulder surgeries is really killing my ability to pull back a string.