How many people look at a stand-off based defense?

[OldSchool45b]

Just what it says. How many people look at putting layers of defense out there away from you BIL? Have you thought about getting other people in your community involved in that plan, or know who has what skill sets that could aid in it?

We have a block plan, 3 block and 5 block plan. I am lucky enough to live in an area where people have lots of gardens in their back yards and swap the pickings all summer long. Lots of hunters. We have a licensed MG dealer and MFG, and several off-roaders so physical security in that way is not an issue. And being in Utah most everyone has food storage. Oh, and the community revolves around a large golf course with natural springs and water flow. But the burning question is, how far out do we push our defenses? We have high GPS resolution maps and grid co-ordinates for all of the major approaches. (removed chaff for better discussion capabilities)

So is anyone else looking at a stand off approach for defense? Most people in our area haven't thought of it, nor have we talked to them about it. But if TSHTF studies have shown that if someone comes with a plan that makes them safer and has minimal disruption of their lives they will go along with it. If not, they can fend for themselves....

[landser]

I guess it would.... depend on what plague you are standing off against. Most people I know who prep do not even want other people to know they are prepping any more. They are too concerned about personal security being compromised or people misconstruing their intentions. To get a block to co-operate around here would be like asking for a favor from the pope.

[OldSchool45b]

In Utah, preping is a way of life. The LDS Church commands it. How seriously people take it depends on the individual. But if the SHTF you can bet they will step to.

[by-the-throat]

Home made artillery is generally a no-no topic around here, just FYI.

I think the opportunities for an actual siege defense of your neighborhood are pretty low. Think less "castle defense" and more "neighborhood watch." Roving watchmen and maybe a few concealed OP's would be a good thing here. If you know most of the approaches, start thinking of places where those approaches can be watched discretely. And there is no reason you cannot set up a sort of watchman schedule before SHTF and maybe run some practice drills for full mobilization if angry mobs with torches and pitchforks show up.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be on the planning table, but there are a lot of measures to take first. If the grid goes dark in your area, your first concern is going to be chicken thieves, not Sodomy Bikers.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

Yeah, I can see this thread having the potential to go south real, real quick.

There's a good post by Geloog around here somewhere that starts... "We are not snipers..." It's all about the forum rules on killing folks and other illegal activitys.

That being said there is something to having a block+ plan with everybody inside - onside.
If such a thing should so come to pass that would potentially be spraypainted with win.

And so to your defences.

Roving watchmen and maybe a few concealed OP's would be a good thing here

^IMHO the gentleman from Indiana has it.

Roving watchmen: If you have as many people as a five block area can provide and as much ground to cover as a five block area provides I would consider mounted patrols. That's right, dudes in the backs of SUV pickups. If things have gone that far downhill that a disciplined responsible law abiding community presence at a barricade or two ain't cutting it anymore and things are all Twilight 2000 : Howling Wilderness USA then it's time to take a leaf out of the warlords' playbook and get yourself some technicals. Mounted patrols can act as quick reaction forces for other mounted patrols or calls from the OPs.

Concealed OP's: Again, this is not about snipers obviously or even pre-emptive counter sniper shit. It's about having eyes in strategic positions with the ability for those eyes to be able to communicate instantly and covertly what they see. It's up to you whether or not they have some sort of overwatch capability but for the sake of the forum I'd keep that bit to myself, I'm just sayin'.

Control the entrances/exits: One thing I would add if things were that fucked up (like the 8th week of a Watts or Brixton style riot) is I would suggest you harden up the entrances in and out of your neighbourhood. As I mentioned previously there is probably already a disciplined responsible law abiding community presence at a barricade or two. If things are so Mad Max that it's turned into a free fire zone, which let's face it is not ideal then having only one or two ways in and lots of ways out becomes key.

Those hardened entrances are going to need to be away from your non combatants as those sort of defences are bullet magnets when Sodomy Bikers are involved.





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[by-the-throat]

Twilight 2000

Damn, what a great reference. Anyone else remember a graphing calculator as an essential tool of character creation? "Okay, I determine my starting equipment by referring to Chart 5-J, Rank Modifiers to Base Pay, 5-L for Citation Modifiers to Base Pay, divide by time in service, roll 2d8 and multiply the whole thing by 4..."

Good times.

[OldSchool45b]

LOL, I loved that game!

Sorry about the home made artillery comment. Didn't think it was an issue since black powder artillery is completely legal.

I would not call what we were thinking a hardening of the entrance. Cars across the road, LP/OP's to keep an eye on things and of course roving patrols. (think "lights out" neighborhood style defense).

A bit more background I guess would help. The golf course is a central piece in the community. With the fresh water and open areas to grow crops it could be a huge asset to the community. It is rather secluded meaning there are only 3 main roads that lead into it from the outer perimeter. Those could be blocked with cars in order to cut down on driving traffic. The vast majority of houses have 6' fences around their yards. Not a lot of protection but it does provide and additional barrier.

Inside that outer perimeter are also several churches and schools that will provide additional land for crops. So as you can see, these open areas provide a huge asset to the community and would need to be shielded even from common thieves. Let alone the sodomy bikers (love that by the way ). I am more worried about common thieves and starving occupy types than real bad guys.

So, has anyone else looked at this method and what are some of the problems and ideas you have come up with? Any kind of outside the box thinking as to how to make this happen or things to make it easier is kind of what I am looking for. I have been deployed 4 times so the roving patrols and overlapping fields of observation I am pretty comfortable with. Same for hidden LP/OP's. They are a huge asset and should be used when ever possible.

Thanks guys!

[OldSchool45b]

I tried several variation to search for that thread you mentioned, no luck. My search fu is weak. Can someone link it for me so I can get a bit better grasp of what the left and right limits are? I read the rules, read the firearm rules. And I in no way want this to go south or cross into questionable territory, the killing, sniping, sodomy bikers thing is not what I intend with this thread.

[raptor]

This thread is borderline and I will be watching it carefully. ZS does not approve of discussions about explosives of any kind. Also sniping people from a distance is verboten. There are other sites where this topics are discussed; ZS not such a forum.

If you want to discuss how to organize a "neighborhood watch" type organization and the logistics of such a set up, that is permissible. However, any further discussions of explosives of any type will result in the thread being locked.

Finally I ask that anyone who posts to this topic read this thread in full. It is a reminder that we are more likely to face a temporary disruption and will be held accountable for any actions taken in such a disruption. Keep this in mind if you want to use extreme force.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60213

Also This thread is a must read. it discusses ZS's take on lethal force.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3225

[OldSchool45b]

This thread is borderline and I will be watching it carefully. ZS does not approve of discussions about explosives of any kind. Also sniping people from a distance is verboten. There are other sites where this topics are discussed; ZS not such a forum.

Yeah, I just said the same thing. That was not my intent either. I read your post, good insight. I was at Katrina with B/Co 1/19th SFG(A). We had a different mission, more maritime recovery operations. We heard about lots of people barricading their neighborhoods to keep the looters out. Can you elaborate on some of the things you saw that they did right and did wrong?

Were any of them working in conjunction with the Guard and LEO to provide intel on the looters and bad guys? We have more than a few LEO and Guardsmen in our area and those we have spoken to about it have been in agreement that it is probably a good idea. Several also expressed gratitude that they had to worry a bit less about their families safety so they could do their jobs. Nobody so far has had any ideas from a real world perspective. Do you know what if any methods they used to get on friendly terms and work successfully with the local authorities? Were any groups given items to aid in their communications with authorities, such as radios or phones?

Based on the things you saw while there, what were some successful methods to secure the areas? We don't have to worry about flooding, but others might. Did any of those groups of home owners have any kind of tiered defenses around their important items (intact schools or churches, water tanks) and if so, what did they do? My thoughts were to restricts access through the outer perimeter and set up the LP/OP and roving patrols. Then around the churches, schools and water supplies have another perimeter to keep thieves from within the area from stealing or damaging those infrastructures. Does that make sense? Even if it is just for a few weeks those assets can make all the difference in the world to people, their mindset and even survival.

Thanks for your Katrina post! And I agree that for every action you will be held accountable. In this life or the next.

[raptor]

The GNO area in the days and weeks (months?) after Katrina varied between chaos and dysfunction. The key lesson from Katrina as it applies to your situation is do not do what we did. Feel free to read my post about it.

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=53451


More on topic is your question about what others have done. There are several great blogs on the subject of a civilization experiencing extreme events. These are linked here but the authors maintain them on their own sites.

The first is a blog site maintained by FERFAL who discusses to the Argentine fiscal crisis and the strains this put on their society. It is worth reading. It is not really geared towards group defense but it will give a scenario and the problems faced in Argentina.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=84676

The second blog is quite interesting. It discusses the Balkan Wars from the perspective of city dweller in a city under siege. It is quite informative. The Balkan Wars were combinations of religious and ethnic conflict in which the distinction between combatants and non-combatant citizens blurred.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=85519


My suggestion is along the lines of what you are doing already. Get together with your neighborhood and approach the preparation scenario as being prepared for natural disasters and other events that may require a cohesive community. You mention the LDS church. Get with the bishops of your church and the other area bishops. You have a ready made networking and mutual support system. I am sure with a little tweaking of
existing policies your greatest hurdle, organization, can easily be put in place.

[bae]

Stand-off is the cornerstone of my plan. I live on a small island off the West Coast, by design

[OldSchool45b]

Excellent, thank you. I have spoken to the block leader for our Ward, nothing serious yet, but we need to get together. I will take a look at all of this and go from there.

Thanks again!

[Liff]

So everyone can kinda see how a group of mostly sane preparedness minded people took to this idea in this thread.

So then, how well do you think the upper middle class people who have enough money to live around a golf coarse are going to join together kibbutz style and grow crops? It seems that they would mostly be just like me. No tools, real knowledge, or real experience.

Maybe your situation is completely different. Maybe the people living around that golf coarse really will join together with little to no dissension and everyone inside of the community will be better off. But both anarchy and communism work equally well in theory.

After all of that has been taken care of, then the odds of the community protecting itself from mountain lions or bears (no analogy, real lions and bears) with armed patrols and watches is a little over the top.

How is your 401k doing? When is the last time you checked the air pressure in your tires? Fire extinguishers? Are you preparing so that you can enjoy life both during the peaks and valleys or are you fixated on teotwawki?

Back to the original idea: I don't look at a stand off based defense. I have too many other ideas to spend my time and money on that are more realistic. Ymmv.

[ZombieGranny]

A problem arises if some of the people with houses inside your perimeter want nothing to do with your group.
I most certainly would NOT trust a few of the people who just happen to be renting a house in our neighborhood.

[by-the-throat]

A problem arises if some of the people with houses inside your perimeter want nothing to do with your group.
I most certainly would NOT trust a few of the people who just happen to be renting a house in our neighborhood.

A notable concern IMHO.

The human element is the weak point in any security system. That said, living a community of mostly LDS types where prepping is an actual religious directive makes for a different kettle of fish. You have access to resources and support that a lot of solo survivalists would envy. I say use it. There are going to be bad apples in any peer group, so think of it this way-you have all this time pre SHTF to identify them and weed them out of your plans. I concur with Raptor that your local church authorities are the place to start.

Dogbane had a great thread on starting a neighborhood watch; does anybody have al ink to it?

[ruralranger]

a lot of different situations are possible due to a disaster in your ao. there do seem to be more "events " happening nowadays than before with the "baby boomer generation" .many of us have lived thru some of them & they do seem to be happening more often with tornado s ,earthquakes , snowstorms all being natural . some of these have spawned out-comes such as Katrina events where a total breakdown happened & things started going south ... We have seen & heard of the events taking place with the arab spring in country' s around the world ,the ows ( which puts pressure on local leo's ), then there's the economy uncertainly ( which spawn desperate individual crisis along with "pill heads ) ... So ,as we look at all these events that seem to be occurring more often and with in our own areas , we do have to make our ao's ready in the event of a scenario of such. We have taken the approach of the least to possible worst situations that happen ,we are lucky to the point that our neighborhood is made up of land owners , leo's, emts ,mechanical minded ,hunters , farmers etc... We started with a knowledge of helping & sharing and have a neighborhood watch system and helping our neighbors as our forefathers did. It develops from there. I guess what we do is back to basic humanity as our forefathers did ,help your neighbor in need. We are very lucky & blessed to have the community of liked minded folks with the mindset of the values of our forefathers... [to be fore warned is to be fore armed] [a nods as good as a wink to a blind horse]

[Tater Raider]

Consider this:

I refuse to impliment something like this. On my street, not neighborhood, not block, but my one section of street, I can trust 1 out of 4 people to be at least decent adn I can count on half to actively try to cheat, scheme, steal, lie, whatever it takes and consequences be damned. And that's right now, not in a crisis. In a crisis I trust 1 other household and that's it, and there is no way it's defensible.

Where I want to relocate to and what I want when I do will be 5a+ at least a mile out of town. At least. I don't want neighbors. I don't need neighbors. I'm sick to death of neighbors and their dogs crapping on my lawn, causing cops to show up, stealing, tossing trash onto the property I rent, etc. and the police saying, "You've got to be the bigger man."

So I ask the OP, how would your plan work in my situation?

I'll also step up to the plate here and say that at times, oft times, I don't work and play well with others. I'm not a bad guy, just a bit stand-offish and needing to contribute, but in my own way with broad guidelines and not specific orders.

So I ask the OP, how would I work in your neighborhood and it's plan?

Now put both situations together. If your plan includes allowances for this, good on ya. If it don't, maybe rework the plan so it does. Also, the only person you are going to be able to count on 100% is you, so make allowances for that as well.

Hope that was helpful.

[OldSchool45b]

Thanks guys. We have a few curmudgeons here too and people that are fairly solitary. The vast majority of the neighborhood is LDS, and this area is very bog on preps. Food storage is taken very seriously. Unfortunately, not a lot of other stuff goes into their preps though. There are a lot of hunters, but also a lot of city dwellers (they don't go out into the woods much other than to ski). The sad part about the golf course is that while this is an upper middle class neighborhood, very very few belong to the country club that operates the course. $15,000 and year in dues and fees keep most of us out.

I understand that there will be people that do not want to participate in the neighborhood watch from hell. That is fine. Nobody would ever try to force someone to participate. But I think getting with the Bishops and Stake Presidents and looking at some sort of flexible but effective method to keep residents safe but strangers out is the place to start.

With every neighborhood there are good and bad elements. Thievery from within is a big concern, from the younger and not so honest population at first and from the desperate as things wear on if it becomes a protracted crisis. Having LEO in the AO will be a big help, as we have said everyone is accountable for their actions. How they deal with those situations is up to them. Same with those of us with military experience for setting up defenses and security.

I, and I think most people in the AO realize that a crisis would be a huge inconvenience and very stressful. The last thing we want to do is make tensions worse. We would of course try to be as reasonable and accommodating to everyone involved. If need be, those of us on our block would pull down to our block alone and go from there. We have a commanding view of the gold course and the section right behind out house is up on a rise so accessibility is limited but by the trail.

Ultimately I am not a player in the whole thing, but I have been ask to make recommendations. Hence my questions. I really am just trying to get ideas and you guys have given me a lot to think about.

[Brymstone666]

Depends on the circumstances,

Socioeconomic collapse, natural or man-made disaster that hasn't compromised the resources of my area: Yes, I would say that implementing a neighborhood watch and a mutually beneficial type of community network (gardening, animal raising, barter system, etc.) would be a definite plus.

Plague or widespread biological event: This is something that would warrant serious bug out consideration. Distance, isolation and self-sufficiency might be the only way to go in this type of scenario. This is a bad one to deal with as you don't know who's infected or potentially incubating a virus or bacterium. Once it kicks off it is almost too late, that's where a detailed and thorough bug out plan comes in handy. Neighborhood watch be damned at this point, they could be infected! Stand-off defense is really not a good idea at this point as there is greater potential to become a casualty as you are surrounded by infected people and the "miltary/authorities" start rounding people up. Presented with resistance the military or other enforcement type authoritarian groups do not take kindly to people holed up in their houses with weapons, ammo and food who do not wish to comply with relocation to "safe zones".

[OldSchool45b]

Plague or widespread biological event: This is something that would warrant serious bug out consideration. Distance, isolation and self-sufficiency might be the only way to go in this type of scenario. This is a bad one to deal with as you don't know who's infected or potentially incubating a virus or bacterium. Once it kicks off it is almost too late, that's where a detailed and thorough bug out plan comes in handy. Neighborhood watch be damned at this point, they could be infected! Stand-off defense is really not a good idea at this point as there is greater potential to become a casualty as you are surrounded by infected people and the "miltary/authorities" start rounding people up. Presented with resistance the military or other enforcement type authoritarian groups do not take kindly to people holed up in their houses with weapons, ammo and food who do not wish to comply with relocation to "safe zones".

There is no bug out plan for that. It is hunker down and bunker in. We all have tyvek bio suits and masks. We can seal the house and the air is brought in through hepa filters which we would like to upgrade to level 1 filters. This is a family compound with my folks, my family and brothers family in for the haul. The only way we would bug is if the place was destroyed or unlivable. If that were the case, it is going to be a massive undertaking to move us and the amount of supplies for a family of 11, the food and water storage and the huge amount of firearms and equipment we have set in place. We are working on that plan but it entails 3 armored vehicles and military trailers to move. (Yeah, we already have the vehicles too, just not onsite. They are at the office which is very close by). And if the MIL is rounding people up, most of us will be AWOL anyway so what does it matter? We will have plenty of warning for that anyway and act accordingly.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

The hardest part about the neighborhood watch ad similar ideas, much less the community holdfast idea is that you know nothing about how a person will react to a scenario type until it happens. I work with a lot of Marines, and I've seen hard chargers show cowardice when faced with enemy fire, and I've seen guys that I thought might under-perform that are now hardened, proven vets.

[raptor]

The hardest part about the neighborhood watch ad similar ideas, much less the community holdfast idea is that you know nothing about how a person will react to a scenario type until it happens. I work with a lot of Marines, and I've seen hard chargers show cowardice when faced with enemy fire, and I've seen guys that I thought might under-perform that are now hardened, proven vets.

Let me point out that the situations Doc Torr describes occurs in an area far from home and in a situation where the participants are both trained and prepped for trouble. They are also willing participants since they volunteered.

Turn that equation around and understand that the fight is now literally in your back yard and the people at risk are your family members and your home.

Add significant mental trauma and stress due to the event(s) which triggered the necessity for these actions. Remember how shocked you felt when 9/11 happened? Well, multiply that several times and add personal risk to you and yours and I think you get the level of stress and mental trauma you will face.

In such a high stress environment in which your family is at risk your group will be fighting many mental factors denial, grief (for whatever was lost even if it is only security), anger, fear, hopelessness. Never mind outside threats. All of these will impact the people involved.

What this means is there will be a lot of wild card "players". Normally stable sensible people may or may not be sensible and stable. People who are normally unstable are likely to be far more unstable and unpredictable. Add to that the real problem...the larger the population, the greater the probability of instability and abnormality occurring within that population. Your large group can actually increase your risk if these factors are not addressed. Unlike Doc Torr's group you cannot send the problems back home. They are home.

Why am I mentioning this? It is not because I am saying be a lone wolf. Quite the contrary.

I mention this because this group like any group will need a cohesive force to provide stability. The OP's group has very useful common shared element. The membership in a common church. This common membership is a good cohesive force in times of trouble which can lend a sense of security and stability in uncertain and difficult times. It also provides a built in and accepted leadership "command and control structure" that is recognized today and thus more likely to be recognized and respected in a SHTF situation.

This is all the more reason why the OP needs to organize through this cohesive structure and use this vehicle to ensure the community cohesiveness.

Many posters get caught up in the equipment side of preparedness and overlook the truly important planning aspect of preparedness. The people side of the equation is the most difficult aspect to plan and manage. In SHTF situation a civilian community is not going to work like a military unit where orders are given and taken. It is this aspect of the equation that is IMO far more important to manage and prepare right now pre-SHTF than the tactical aspects. I say this because the simple truth is that tactics must be planned and devised around your resources.

I would also add that cohesive neighborhood is likely to be far more pleasant and able to deal with the day to day problems pre-SHTF.