Bowmanship Thread

[Regular Guy]

Just to swing into this thread, I bought my son 6 new arrows for his bow for his birthday. We spend about 4 hrs shooting his bow all around the yard at a hay bale. Having the same arrow with the same weight makes a big difference in accuracy. Much more consistant and predictable.
We had a great day.

I've found a take down bow I like and in my price range, I want to pick it up soon.

Now my question, I've noticed that his bow hits best at certain ranges. At about 25m we can keep the arrows in a 10" group. Further or closer seems like we have to do a bunch of kentucky windage to get hits. Is this just inexperience or is this normal that a bow does better at specific ranges?

[Kyle Ryder]

Dude, your 15 and you can shoot a 95lb Longbow? Is that even possible or do you just take steroids.

Well said, I say get a video of it this guy putting it on a tiller and him pulling it to see the real story

[Kyle Ryder]

Just to swing into this thread, I bought my son 6 new arrows for his bow for his birthday. We spend about 4 hrs shooting his bow all around the yard at a hay bale. Having the same arrow with the same weight makes a big difference in accuracy. Much more consistant and predictable.
We had a great day.

I've found a take down bow I like and in my price range, I want to pick it up soon.

Now my question, I've noticed that his bow hits best at certain ranges. At about 25m we can keep the arrows in a 10" group. Further or closer seems like we have to do a bunch of kentucky windage to get hits. Is this just inexperience or is this normal that a bow does better at specific ranges?

What kind of bow is it?
Recurve, longbow, flatbow etc..

[Regular Guy]

It's a little fiberglass compound. Maybe a 15lbs draw. I'm always amazed how far the bow will shoot the arrow. It will get it out there 150-175m, easy. Yes, we've lost some arrows.

[ninja-elbow]

I don't know the real verbiage RG, but there is a "sweet spot - zero" for bows. Again, it all depends on the usual minutiae (bow, arrow, string, skill, et al and all in between). I've seen much discussion on shaft flex and it's place in a bow's sweet spot - all shafts flex quite a bit upon release and it takes a moment before it stops warbling in flight.

[Regular Guy]

I don't know the real verbiage RG, but there is a "sweet spot - zero" for bows. Again, it all depends on the usual minutiae (bow, arrow, string, skill, et al and all in between). I've seen much discussion on shaft flex and it's place in a bow's sweet spot - all shafts flex quite a bit upon release and it takes a moment before it stops warbling in flight.

Makes sense. It just seems that 25m is the "sweet spot". We can hit at different distances but not as well as at 25m. 10m is garbage, 50m is trash, 25meters, we're hitting the shafts of other arrows.

[Ad'lan]

Yeah, different bow/arrow combinations will make different sweet spots. There's too many variables for me to reliably trouble shoot if you wanted to change it.

Dude, your 15 and you can shoot a 95lb Longbow? Is that even possible or do you just take steroids.

Well said, I say get a video of it this guy putting it on a tiller and him pulling it to see the real story

I expect ignorance might also play a factor. I used to think I drew 90lb. I did draw a 90lb warbow, but when I started, I wasn't drawing it anywhere near to full draw (~90lb @ 32" is no where near 90lb at 26"). But OTOH, I've seen some pretty hench 15 year olds, so It's just possible. With him now banned for 3 years, we won't know.

[Regular Guy]

Yeah, different bow/arrow combinations will make different sweet spots. There's too many variables for me to reliably trouble shoot if you wanted to change it.

No we don't have an issue with it, just a question. If he wants to hunt squirrels or rabbits then 25m is a good stand off distance.

[northernxposure]

@Kyle Rider -

Dude, you don't have a technique. You've just started. Doing something incorrectly but trying to claim that you're doing it "your style" is asinine. It's okay to admit you're a beginner and learning. The comment about how one bow of 50# is different than another bow of 50# is just silly. 50# of draw force is 50# of draw force - weight doesn't change - the draw curve between them may change, as one may be more linear than the other, or come on stronger at a different point in the draw cycle, but if two bows are 50# at 28", both bows will have 50# at 28".

Seriously. Now I know how some of the guys in the gun forums feel.

I don't know the real verbiage RG, but there is a "sweet spot - zero" for bows. Again, it all depends on the usual minutiae (bow, arrow, string, skill, et al and all in between). I've seen much discussion on shaft flex and it's place in a bow's sweet spot - all shafts flex quite a bit upon release and it takes a moment before it stops warbling in flight.

Makes sense. It just seems that 25m is the "sweet spot". We can hit at different distances but not as well as at 25m. 10m is garbage, 50m is trash, 25meters, we're hitting the shafts of other arrows.

Reg/Ninga-Elbow -

You're seeing the effect of arrow spine. If an arrow is spined correctly to the draw weight of the bow, the arrow will fly true and not deviate due to paradox. Paradox is the oscillation of the arrow as it is launched from the string to the target. Arrows released from the fingers will have considerably more paradox than arrows launched from a mechanical release (as the string rolls off the finger tips, it starts the oscillation - with a mechanical release the string has significantly less initial oscillation as it is inline with the shooting plane).

Stiff spines need heavy poundage/highly efficient mechanical bows. Weak spined arrows are used in low poundage compound bows and traditional bows under 70#.

If you use an arrow that is spined too strongly for a particular bow, it will not shoot straight, and end up veering to one side - especially in flight. Usually an arrow that is too stiff will impact right of it's intended POI if shot from a right handed archer, and left if shot from a left handed archer. If the spine is too weak, it will impact left of the POI for a right handed archer, and right for a left handed archer. The fact that you've found the center for a certain distance doesn't suprize me at all, as you've located where the arrow hits true for that given spine/weight range.

Now that you know how that works, you're kind of screwed Reg Guy if you want to use the correctly spined arrows for your daughters bow. I say that as there really isn't a spine on the commercial market that fits a 15# compound. The nearest you'll get would be a full length .600 spined aluminum (Easton Jazz or Jr series) which is still going to be too stiff. Your best bet at this point is to just continue to shoot at the centered distance, have fun, and work on fundamentals.

If you haven't already, and your daughter really enjoys archery, look into NASP. It's a great program - I volunteer for it all the time and coach students in proper technique and stance.

NXP

[Silent Kube]

Speaking of strange draw styles, I have one. I have a habit of starting with arrow nocked and the bow relaxed pointing up in the air. Then as I bring the bow to firing position, my string hand stays in roughly the same position relative to my body while my bow hand extends. Not sure if I'm explaining it right but I hope so because I'm not posting a video of myself doing it. It's not that I'm overbowed because I can draw normally if I think about it or need to shoot fast (also I'm a big guy and it's only a 48# bow), it's just that my habitual draw style is the one I posted above. I think I've seen too many robinhood movies or something. I think it's basically me adding a little flair. lol

[Regular Guy]

If you haven't already, and your daughter really enjoys archery, look into NASP. It's a great program - I volunteer for it all the time and coach students in proper technique and stance.

NXP

Part of my childrenz martial arts class is a 1 hr a week archery class.

[northernxposure]

Speaking of strange draw styles, I have one. I have a habit of starting with arrow nocked and the bow relaxed pointing up in the air. Then as I bring the bow to firing position, my string hand stays in roughly the same position relative to my body while my bow hand extends. Not sure if I'm explaining it right but I hope so because I'm not posting a video of myself doing it. It's not that I'm overbowed because I can draw normally if I think about it or need to shoot fast (also I'm a big guy and it's only a 48# bow), it's just that my habitual draw style is the one I posted above. I think I've seen too many robinhood movies or something. I think it's basically me adding a little flair. lol

You're pressing the bow. It's not uncommon at all, though it does lead to some bad habits. Many people "sky" when they draw, not all of them are overbowed - it's easier to drop the arrow into the target than it is lift the drawn bow into the target. Try it sometime, if you draw low on the target and lift into your target area, it's easier to let the bow settle down than to lift it up.

Much like lifting up a 8lb weight with one hand, look an an object in the distance and slowly raise the weight in an outstretched arm until it's occluded, then hold it. Now Start above the target and drop the outstretched arm slowly until the target is occluded again and hold.

NXP

[Ad'lan]

As we're discussing Warbows, Here's how I used to try and shoot mine, the Rolling Loose:

[ninja-elbow]

PARADOX - that's the word I was looking for. Thanks NXP.

[Ad'lan]

You're pressing the bow. It's not uncommon at all, though it does lead to some bad habits. Many people "sky" when they draw, not all of them are overbowed - it's easier to drop the arrow into the target than it is lift the drawn bow into the target. Try it sometime, if you draw low on the target and lift into your target area, it's easier to let the bow settle down than to lift it up.

NXP

I go up and then down on to the target, loose as soon as you are over target, it's more consistent than trying to hold dead on.

[Gypsyblood]

I just started with a war-bow last year. I’ve been a traditional archery for decades, but I had to try to unlearn/relearn for war-bow technique.

As you can see from the videos, I am still dead-arming the bow using more strength than technique. 120# was a chore, but eventually, I moved up to 140#. By the time I left England I was doing pretty well with the 140# but that was with constant practice!

I have to add that shooting a war-bow is simply about fun. The first thing many of us did when we got our first bow as children was to come to full draw and see how far up in the air we could shoot. What a blast! Clouting with a war-bow fulfills that childish urge for many of us. Shooting big, heavy, ¼” shaft, 1600 grain arrows two-hundred and something yards down the field is wicked. Getting them to group up into 15 or so square yard is really cool.

In the videos, I am starting to develop some technique, but I have a way to go. I've got to get the rolling loose down. Mike’s 120# is a composite with a bamboo backing. My 140# is Hungarian Osage. It’s beautifully ugly…

[Regular Guy]

Goofy question, do any of you bow guys have the "swoosh" sound arrows make on your smart phone and use it for messages. Cause that would be kewl.

[northernxposure]

I go up and then down on to the target, loose as soon as you are over target, it's more consistent than trying to hold dead on.

That's because you're doing it right. Ideally you want to drop into the target, but if you start shooting competitive target archery (5 spot or Vegas) you'll find after a few rounds it starts to get harder to drop into the target, and then the "swimming pin" starts..

Reg -

Can't, my phone is dumb. Cool idea though, my old smart phone had the horn from Caddyshack as the ringer... that was entertaining.

[Kyle Ryder]

@Kyle Rider -

Dude, you don't have a technique. You've just started.

I'm starting off and have my technique, it just needs working on, stop being a thought-nazi dude.

Seriously. Now I know how some of the guys in the gun forums feel.

Yeah me too, the trolls need to get back under the bridge.



If you haven't already, and your daughter really enjoys archery, look into NASP. It's a great program - I volunteer for it all the time and coach students in proper technique and stance.

NXP

Maybe you should drop the compound-attitude and leave the recurve / longbow types to get on with it man.
Oh and see the bold print too, I 've responded.

[Kyle Ryder]

Goofy question, do any of you bow guys have the "swoosh" sound arrows make on your smart phone and use it for messages. Cause that would be kewl.

LOL. I have it on some of my videos that I shot at my uncles place. It sounds pretty cool but is quick! Maybe I should edit the sound, kinda slow it down and stretch it out a bit.

[Silent Kube]

I used to use this for my text message notification. Just the audio of course.

[SavageArcher]

I swung over to the local Bass Pro Shop to look around this morning. They only have a few recurves in stock and non of them seem to have strings, not surprising the guy at the archery counter wouldn't let me try one anyway even if they had strings. Did use their crappy little bow for checking drawlength thou. According to it I'm pulling between 27-1/2 and 28. I think the young fella there was reading the length from the center of the riser.

Anyway a lot of factors can effect the stiffness of an arrow. Length and arrowhead weight come to mind. I can shoot 31" Carbon Express 65/75 and Easton 2117 aluminum shafts, both which are .340 spine I think, just fine out of my 48# and 50# recurves. Especially well if I use 125 grain points. The same shafts work fine in my compounds as well. If I had a longbow it would be a different story. Most longbows aren't centercut on the riser and you would need an arrow with less stiffness so it can flex around the riser or so that's my understanding of it anyway.

My shooting style is more along the lines of Fred Bear. I push/pull during my draw. I push the bow away from my body as I draw back the string while raising the bow to position. once I'm anchored and at full draw I concentrate for a few seconds and release. I don't cant my bow as much as Fred Bear did but just enough where I have an unobstructed view of my target.

I'm still learning and developing muscle memory as I go but so far I'm enjoying archery again for the first time in many years.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

Speaking of techniques, a video was posted in the Chat Thread of a Russian girl archer and her technique. It's pretty interesting to a guy like me who has never really used a bow.

Here's the video.

[northernxposure]

HERP A DERP.

Sure - the guy that's a certified instructor for NASP, has shot multiple tournaments through out the midwest competitively, has competed and placed in both Traditional Field and 3D Hunters class, that is trying to give you advice that you continue to discount because you as a complete beginner obviously know more, is a troll.

Play your game, player.

Savage Archer -

You've got the right idea regarding arrow spine, the Easton 2117 is a true .340 while the CX is listed as a .340, they routinely spine test a little stiffer, usually a .330. It doesn't make a huge difference, but it is something to note. Using a full length arrow with a 125gr head, you'd still be stiff if shooting for an optimum spine. A 50# recurve typically shoots best with a .400 spine arrow, full length with at least a 150gr head on it.

The paradox for an arrow is the same regardless of the cut of the shelf, but the amount of relief that the shelf has greatly increases the range of tolerable spines that the will shoot. No Shelf, very tight tolerance for correct spine rate, cut past center shelf, wide tolerance for spine rate

Chances are your recurve is cut past center which greatly increases the spine tolerance. Even if the arrow is way over spined, the bow will still shoot it reasonably well, especially if you're running 5" feathers on the back (which is typical of a traditional arrow setup). Crazy drag will stabilize the arrow significantly faster.

If you haven't already, bareshaft your arrows and you'll see what I mean. I'd bet without the feathers on them those arrows will tail kick left like a mother. That's not to say you can't use them, it will limit your potential and accuracy at longer ranges because the arrow is fighting you.

If you haven't already, check out Stu Miller's Tradition arrow builder (it's an excel spreadsheet that you can input your DL, draw weight, arrow length, tip weight, arrow type and spine, etc) with the personal calibration set, it's actually pretty close in terms of what arrows and tip weights can work for you. It's a great way to try out different combinations to compare speed with KE and not really spend any money.

NXP

Edit: Because I'm better than that, and you.