Bowmanship Thread

[Ad'lan]

Size isn't that important. Draw weight is. Do you know your draw weight, or your draw length?

[northernxposure]

Size isn't that important. Draw weight is. Do you know your draw weight, or your draw length?

Agree. That said, if you've got some crazy long draw length, you want to keep the bow length longer than shorter as you'll have less finger pinch. The shorter the bow, the more acute the string angle at the nock point when at full draw. Eventually with enough bows you'll find a size that "fits" you best, it's more of a personal thing.

I've got trad bows from 52" to 68", and personally I think that 60-62" is a great starting point for recurves and 64" for longbows. Those sizes seem to be a great trade between stability and overall length in the event you want to hunt with it or target shoot.

NXP

[Captain Splat Marrow]

Just got a PSE kingfisher from cabelas in fort worth, it's aluminum riser 60" with 50 lbs draw weight seems quite rugged and only $119 just a thought

[Dlongmuir]

Unfortunately I don't know my draw weight or length.

[shulatt]

Unfortunately I don't know my draw weight or length.

One basic formula I've seen for figuring draw length is to measure your wing-span (middle finger to middle finger with arms outstretched parallel to the ground) in inches, subtract 15 inches and divide the remainder by 2. Wing-span and height are usually fairly close in most people, so that can also give you a ball park estimate.

shulatt

[Silent Kube]

Or you could take a yardstick and act like you're drawing it back like an arrow and have someone read you the measurement. May not be perfectly accurate but it'll give you a decent idea.

[Ad'lan]

Or you could take a yardstick and act like you're drawing it back like an arrow and have someone read you the measurement. May not be perfectly accurate but it'll give you a decent idea.

Place the Yardstick on your sternum, stretch your arms out as far as you can along the yardstick, keeping them even, and that's your draw length. At least, that's how I was first measured. As I improved my technique, my draw length changed.


As for draw weight, draw weight is the amount of pressure on your fingers as you draw the bow, it's about what you can easily pull to begin with (don't over bow yourself, you want to avoid bad habits using too heavy a bow causes), and what uses you want to put a bow to.

[DREAMSCAPE]

Anybody have any suggestions on purchasing a new bow to replace the 20 year old Darton Im still shooting? Im a fingers shooter and it seems like all the new bows I've seen are short & set up for release shooters and they tend to put my fingers in a bind

[northernxposure]

Anybody have any suggestions on purchasing a new bow to replace the 20 year old Darton Im still shooting? Im a fingers shooter and it seems like all the new bows I've seen are short & set up for release shooters and they tend to put my fingers in a bind

There's a few on the market, but you'll already be more expensive than the usual "hunter" models as all the long ATA bows are usually set up for target shooting.

Not knowing which Darton you have, I'll assume it's one of the early round cam designs with about 60% letoff. If you're shooting fingers with wheels, try and keep the ATA (axle to axle) length above 39" with a large brace height (>7"). Current models I'd look at would be the Hoyt Vantage LTD and the Mathews Apex 8, or the Conquest 4.

Personally I owned the Conquest 4 for a bit and had no issues at all shooting it with fingers. I downsized to a Mathews Ovation, but after owning that one for a bit, I'll probably end up switching it out for either the C4 or the A7 again, just personal preference.

NXP

[DREAMSCAPE]

Anybody have any suggestions on purchasing a new bow to replace the 20 year old Darton Im still shooting? Im a fingers shooter and it seems like all the new bows I've seen are short & set up for release shooters and they tend to put my fingers in a bind

There's a few on the market, but you'll already be more expensive than the usual "hunter" models as all the long ATA bows are usually set up for target shooting.

Not knowing which Darton you have, I'll assume it's one of the early round cam designs with about 60% letoff. If you're shooting fingers with wheels, try and keep the ATA (axle to axle) length above 39" with a large brace height (>7"). Current models I'd look at would be the Hoyt Vantage LTD and the Mathews Apex 8, or the Conquest 4.

Personally I owned the Conquest 4 for a bit and had no issues at all shooting it with fingers. I downsized to a Mathews Ovation, but after owning that one for a bit, I'll probably end up switching it out for either the C4 or the A7 again, just personal preference.

NXP

I googled the models you listed and liked some of them just not the price tags! but using the criteria you listed above for a good fingers shooting bow i found a few other models in my price range that i also liked . thanks for the information it helped!

[Red_Snow]

Unfortunately I don't know my draw weight or length.

One basic formula I've seen for figuring draw length is to measure your wing-span (middle finger to middle finger with arms outstretched parallel to the ground) in inches, subtract 15 inches and divide the remainder by 2. Wing-span and height are usually fairly close in most people, so that can also give you a ball park estimate.

shulatt

Running the math like that I should be shooting a 32" draw length. 6' 8" wingspan.

The bow I picked up today is actually a 31" draw length:

[northernxposure]

Nice Matrix. If you're going to drop over a grand (purchased new) on a bow, though, I'm sure someone measured you!

It's also feasible that you're close; figuring 0.5" for the loop, Hoyt's run slightly long unless you under rotate the cam, you're probably right on the money. 6'8" wingspan - freaks I tell you, yeti freaks!

NXP

[Red_Snow]

Nice Matrix. If you're going to drop over a grand (purchased new) on a bow, though, I'm sure someone measured you!

It's also feasible that you're close; figuring 0.5" for the loop, Hoyt's run slightly long unless you under rotate the cam, you're probably right on the money. 6'8" wingspan - freaks I tell you, yeti freaks!

NXP

They sure did measure me, by having me stand up against their wall where the "wingspan gauge" was. I maxed it out. Just got lucky that the Hoyts run long enough to not need the Long Draw Matrix.

[Kyle Ryder]

Unfortunately I don't know my draw weight or length.

One basic formula I've seen for figuring draw length is to measure your wing-span (middle finger to middle finger with arms outstretched parallel to the ground) in inches, subtract 15 inches and divide the remainder by 2. Wing-span and height are usually fairly close in most people, so that can also give you a ball park estimate.

shulatt

Thanks for that info.

Just did a calculation based on that formula and it came out at 28 inches.
Just what my longbow is 'set' at according to the bowyer I got it from

[Kyle Ryder]

Making Arrows, a rough guide.

It's pretty clear but I don't yet have the skill and tools to make arrow blanks and then round them off into shafts.
The guide starts from the point of getting the shafts from the supplier...

I may make an error or two along the way so feel free to point out or critique any cluster fcks I make guys



The first thing I do is order up some pre-cut and rounded arrow shafts that suit the bow you’ve got.
Ebay is where I get my supply's currently...

Note: If you have a timber supplier nearby and your own electric band-saw you could try making your own shafts for arrow-making. This is advanced stuff though and for another guide.
For this guide I've assumed you've got a pre-cut and shaped arrow shaft.

Having the correct ‘spine’ or stiffness counts here. If you don’t get the right ‘match’ your arrow will veer off to the left or right.
The more powerful your bow, the more ‘spine’ or rigidity it needs.

Once you’ve got a bundle of arrow shafts (buying in bulk is cheaper) check each one for straightness, if it’s badly bent try and straighten it (sometimes steaming can help with this).

Nocks

Next step is making the nock, where you notch an arrow.
You can do this the fancy, easy way, or the old-fashioned way.
The former is where you stick on an external plastic nock. To do that you should taper the last half-inch of the shaft to accommodate a plastic-nock.

The old-fashioned way is to make your own nock out of the wood itself. This my way of doing it as you don’t require purchase a nock. It also means there’s no nock piece to ‘fall-out’ during the course of the arrows life being shot etc.

The grain of the arrow is important, you must go at a right-angle to the grain. That is to say cutting across it.
A vice for this part is real boon. One guy online doesn’t use one (no access) so he just uses his knee’s and his free hand to steady it!

Now, using a hacksaw or equiv. Make a notch that’s about a ¼ of an inch deep or so.
Basically deep enough to get an arrow string into.
A hacksaw is good (what I use and one I made as a teenager at school!). Also a padsaw is fine, possibly a bit more easier to work with for notch-making.

Now widen the thin notch with a file set. I use two tools for widening it.
A small, slender file and a strange coping saw with a circular file-blade in it. It’s a strange little thing
but it is well-versed for this kind of work.
You can make your own shape for the nock edges. Or just leave it rough-cut.
I try and make a ‘bell’ pattern so that the string goes into the notch with a mere smigen of resistence. That way an arrow will stay nocked even on ‘stand-by’
But not so tight that it could throw the arrow awary once it’s released from an arrow.
You’ll want to reinforce the nock with binding, so use Somax thread or similar to wrap around underneath the nock. About ½ inch should be ok.

Arrow Lore: The Fletching / Arrowsmith guru’s use horn inserts for the nocks, this allows greatest of warbows to safetly use arrows without risking nock failure....

Once your nock is complete you can weather-proof it.
I use Danish Oil for this. But any wood-stain should do the trick.
After it dries (3 – 6 hours) you ought to reinforce the nock with strong thread.
Not only will it strengthen the area, but it make’s the arrow have an area you can take a purchase on a bit better.

Arrowheads

Next stage is adding on your arrowhead.
The arrowhead is a class all on it’s own. You can add an array of heads to arrows. Bone, flint, obsidian, metal etc.
Securing it to the shaft can be done in a variety of ways.
One item you will need is a fairly decent glue.
Super glue works, araldite does to.
I haven’t tried locktite and others though.
As long as one surface is porous a bonding glue should work fine.
IF you don’t have a strong glue then making a binding around the arrowhead can reinforce a weak ‘join’.
Normally this is essential if you are ‘hafting’ an arrowhead (with bone, flint etc). Pinning is another way.

Archers Lore: In times of war some archers arrows would have a weakish glue on their arrowheads.
That way an enemy could not remove an arrowhead by pulling out the shaft...

For my arrowheads I’ve got some semi-armour-piercing ones known as Modkin’s.
These are some of the most affordable one’s available outside of forging your own.

These one’s are at 3/8’s diameter (which is about 12mm or so).
The shafts I ordered already came tapered one end which allows easier insertion.
If your shaft’s aren’t taperd then either a careful eye and a file is needed OR a bench grinder (much easier).

Add glue onto the arrow, I have it tight in the vice for this bit.
Then insert the arrowhead and screw it on tight.

Curing time vary’s but after a couple of hours you can start thinking about getting the fletchings done...

Fletchings

Good resources on arrow and bow making:

[url][YouTube]http://youtu.be/778_kC65oYQ[/YouTube][/url] (In Italian but little dialogue).

You’ll need a fletchers jig to easily fletch the arrow shaft.
Or you can mark 3 x 120 degree points on it and glue it manually. In days of yore they’d bind arrow-fletchings onto the shafts, possibly glueing them as well if they had time.
I used basic superglue, then for some I bind them as well.
You will want to reinforce the ‘throat’ of the fletchings once they are glued in place.
That way you can reuse them without the likelihood of the fletchings coming off at the narrowest point. This is also where the air-resistence meets them so it’s a good idea doing this.
I use a spot of superglue to stick the thread then wind it up over the fletchings. Then another spot of glue to hold it in place.
After that I PVA over the thread and also the nock thread as well.

Finishing touches.

Adding fancy decals and ‘ring’ patterns are what some do.
I don’t bother with faffy things like that though, I prefer to ‘proof’ test my arrows with a clout-shoot. That way I can check they pass Watch Ryders 200 Yard requirement of shots 'on target'

[Kyle Ryder]

Some flight shooting I did just recently:



I do ok, but didn't hit any amazing distances...

[Kyle Ryder]

Just an extra bit of info.

I didn't explain how you bind up the nocks on the how-to video.
Made another video explaining that too!
I know, a bit OTT but I don't think it'd be easy for a beginner to make an arrow without knowing or having it demonstrated for them.

So here it is

[northernxposure]

I don't know what is going on with the "squat/shoot" thing, but either you're way over bowed or you've got no clue on stance and shot alignment. Either way, I can't see any of that ending well.

Time for some lessons. And a few less pounds.

NXP

[shulatt]

Unfortunately I don't know my draw weight or length.

One basic formula I've seen for figuring draw length is to measure your wing-span (middle finger to middle finger with arms outstretched parallel to the ground) in inches, subtract 15 inches and divide the remainder by 2. Wing-span and height are usually fairly close in most people, so that can also give you a ball park estimate.

shulatt

Thanks for that info.

Just did a calculation based on that formula and it came out at 28 inches.
Just what my longbow is 'set' at according to the bowyer I got it from

Glad it helped! I can't take too much credit for the calc, just something I dredged out of my memory.
I don't even recall where I heard it originally though it had to have been when I was shooting longbow with a medievalist group ages ago.

[supermarvio]

I'm glad I found this thread. I've been looking to get into archery for about 6 months now. I'll be honest I've been a little intimidated to go from thinking about it to actually doing it. There's just so much to consider. For someone who's never done this before I've been having trouble finding a good starter bow for a reasonable price. As I mentioned before, so much to consider. I decided I want to shoot traditional (compound bows seem too complicated). Now that I've fumbled across this thread. I think I'll start with the Barnett Sportsflight. Thanks!

[Kyle Ryder]

I don't know what is going on with the "squat/shoot" thing, but either you're way over bowed or you've got no clue on stance and shot alignment. Either way, I can't see any of that ending well.

Time for some lessons. And a few less pounds.

NXP

Don't do lessons, I'm self-taught, just getting into the groove.
No injurys either thanks
Everyone has his own style, with longbows its different to the compound wheel bows mate

[Ad'lan]

I don't know what is going on with the "squat/shoot" thing, but either you're way over bowed or you've got no clue on stance and shot alignment. Either way, I can't see any of that ending well.

Time for some lessons. And a few less pounds.

NXP

Everyone has his own style, with longbows its different to the compound wheel bows mate

The Squat/Shoot is called drawing in the bow, and though I wouldn't really call 55lb over bowed, or needing quite the stance, it is traditional when shooting warbows. It's a very nice Full compass bow though.

[northernxposure]

I don't know what is going on with the "squat/shoot" thing, but either you're way over bowed or you've got no clue on stance and shot alignment. Either way, I can't see any of that ending well.

Time for some lessons. And a few less pounds.

NXP

Everyone has his own style, with longbows its different to the compound wheel bows mate

The Squat/Shoot is called drawing in the bow, and though I wouldn't really call 55lb over bowed, or needing quite the stance, it is traditional when shooting warbows. It's a very nice Full compass bow though.

What ever it is, it's completely different from a proper target stance and I can't see any benefit at all from it. A lot of wasted energy, and while I don't think 55# is too much ( I shoot a 57# recurve myself for hunting), what I'm seeing in the video posted looks like a classic case of beginner being over bowed. You could argue that it's something like the Asbel technique, but even that's not correct for what's on the video. You should be able to draw smoothly, while maintaining focus on the target.

Let me give you an example -

I can pull my recurve smoothly, slowly and hold it at full draw for a full 20 seconds from a seated position. Shooting from a seated position is a great indicator, you should not need to "sky" the bow (eg, draw down from above) to pull it back, nor should you need to yank or snap shoot. If you can smoothly pull it back while seated, you're at the right weight. Even more of a challenge, push and pull at the same time (useful if shooting from an enclosed area like blind).

I think it's wonderful you're having fun and have an interest in shooting archery. I also think you'd be better served getting some instruction and not build a multitude of bad habits that will plague you, and possibly rob you of potential accuracy and ability you haven't yet experienced.

NXP (and I still don't have a clue why you people from England think a longbow's sole purpose is to lob arrows willy-nilly across a field... )

[Quietus]

What ever it is, it's completely different from a proper target stance and I can't see any benefit at all from it. A lot of wasted energy, and while I don't think 55# is too much ( I shoot a 57# recurve myself for hunting), what I'm seeing in the video posted looks like a classic case of beginner being over bowed. You could argue that it's something like the Asbel technique, but even that's not correct for what's on the video. You should be able to draw smoothly, while maintaining focus on the target.

Let me give you an example -

I can pull my recurve smoothly, slowly and hold it at full draw for a full 20 seconds from a seated position. Shooting from a seated position is a great indicator, you should not need to "sky" the bow (eg, draw down from above) to pull it back, nor should you need to yank or snap shoot. If you can smoothly pull it back while seated, you're at the right weight. Even more of a challenge, push and pull at the same time (useful if shooting from an enclosed area like blind).

I think it's wonderful you're having fun and have an interest in shooting archery. I also think you'd be better served getting some instruction and not build a multitude of bad habits that will plague you, and possibly rob you of potential accuracy and ability you haven't yet experienced.

NXP (and I still don't have a clue why you people from England think a longbow's sole purpose is to lob arrows willy-nilly across a field... )

You need to understand that archery techniques as well as bows are not all the same.

As Ad'lan said, this is common when shooting warbows. And if done correctly, it actually helps draw the heavier bows.
The technique displayed in the video, is not perfect. And the bow does not really fall in the warbow category. But we all need to start somewhere. And if he is working towards the high poundage bows, training this from the start, could very well be a help later on.

Remember that longbows are not the same as a target recurve. And the proper technique for shooting one is very different as well. Warbows are even more different.

Most of us traditional longbow archers shoot instinctively. We have no need to hold at full draw. And when we start to play with the 90-100lbs+ toys, it's a whole new game.
I for one use the swing draw and snapshooting techniques almost all the time when shooting longbows. It has always worked for me, even though most modern/younger archers have been brainwashed into thinking it is pure evil.
And who knows. It might be. But it happens to be that kind of pure evil, that Howard Hill used to win 196 field tournaments in a row.