Why is it...

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I think this thread should be stickied.

Actually, I think a better idea would be a "Comms FAQ" that could be made up of the best parts of all the various posts on this subject. I wish I had time to work on it myself, but maybe I could assist someone who wanted to try doing one?

Maybe mention it to the ZS ARC president, and have them organize it? THat way the greatest minds on ZS can share the document via email, get it nice and proofread, and post it when it's ready.

[KJ4VOV]

I think this thread should be stickied.

Actually, I think a better idea would be a "Comms FAQ" that could be made up of the best parts of all the various posts on this subject. I wish I had time to work on it myself, but maybe I could assist someone who wanted to try doing one?

Maybe mention it to the ZS ARC president, and have them organize it? THat way the greatest minds on ZS can share the document via email, get it nice and proofread, and post it when it's ready.

You don't want me to work on it too?

[ethanboris]

i think when someome pipes up saying they want a comms solution they want to know the how to get onto the super secret zombie apocalpse network that is being secretly set-up that is scrambled so the FCC (or ACMA in my case) won't be able to decode it AND it makes wal-mart 2w handhelds communicate over 50 miles because all radios are capable of that wether it's on GMRS,FMRS or CB

Amateur Radio, the origional social network

[zommoz10]

I think some people on this forum could tone it down when it comes to educating others on what isn't legal because it does come across as quite bossy and you know what happens when you tell someone they can't do something. It's like mom telling you not to have any cookies before dinner.

[JohnE]

I think some people on this forum could tone it down when it comes to educating others on what isn't legal because it does come across as quite bossy and you know what happens when you tell someone they can't do something. It's like mom telling you not to have any cookies before dinner.

If more people who claim that they've read the rules and understand that they apply to everyone posting here, no one would need to be bossy.

Every poster here is supposed to be over 18 years of age and thus legally an adult. Most adults I know buy their own cookies.

[zommoz10]

I think some people on this forum could tone it down when it comes to educating others on what isn't legal because it does come across as quite bossy and you know what happens when you tell someone they can't do something. It's like mom telling you not to have any cookies before dinner.

If more people who claim that they've read the rules and understand that they apply to everyone posting here, no one would need to be bossy.

Every poster here is supposed to be over 18 years of age and thus legally an adult. Most adults I know buy their own cookies.

You missed both of my points.
If you go through the recent threads, you'll see initial replies were worded a bit harshly.
My point about the cookies is it's more effective IMO to persuade someone to do the right thing with alternative ideas than it is to order someone not to do something.

[zommoz10]

Which of these do you think would be more effective in persuading someone not to modify their FRS radio to have an external antenna and higher power?

Modifying FRS radios is illegal and if you're caught, you can end up with huge fines and have your radio taken away . And it's illegal to discuss breaking laws on here so don't break the rules of the forum!

Modifying FRS radios isn't allowed under the FCC regulations, but if what you're wanting is the ability to have higher power output and use external antennas on UHF, you should look into GMRS. GMRS allows you much greater flexibility with your equipment and power levels. While it does require a license, the GMRS channels are much less crowded.

[Boyscoutdreams]

I was thinking, while reading this thread, that what many people need to be able to read, is a reasonably accurate explanation of what various radios are capable of,,, and with a reason of why.
Kinda like:

GMRS and FRS are both in the UHF radio band and cannot transmit beyond Line of Sight. This number is affected by height of the antenna not by power. Which causes two hand held units to only be able to talk aprox. 1-2 miles under the best conditions on level ground with no obstructions. Trees, buildings power lines all work against you in achieving that distance. Change the hight on either radio will change the distance. GMRS requires a federally issued license, and requires renewal but has no test to take.

MURS is a VHF radio band, does not require a license, and has about the same transmission distance. But the radios are significantly more expensive and are limited in their power output.

GMRS and FRS and MURS are great choices if you are going to be talking a very limited distance.

CB with only the legal 5watts (or 12watts if you get a side band version) will give you greater distance. With the external antennas being about to be higher and the base antennas being able to be both directional or omni directional can give you greater distance. Most "mobile" setups are estimated to be able to talk 5-10 miles depending on the terrain. In city and suburbs, even these distances might be hard to achieve due to electrical interference and buildings in the way. Because these are in the HF band, their radio signals have the potential of reflecting off the upper atmosphere and "skipping" for long distances. These are not consistent enough to be trusted for day to day communication. Higher antennas, and directional antennas will give you markedly farther transmission more consistently. How far is hard to estimate and can be very site and direction specific.

With all this being said, The benefits of operating with ham radio gear is several fold,,, and I'm sure others can add a lot more.

Ham radios often allow more power, better antenna designs made for longer and more consistent communications. The limitations of VHF and UHF are bypassed with the use of locally installed repeaters. Because they are often installed VERY high they can receive a weak signal and retransmit it to a much larger area. If you are talking a serious grid down scenario, if these repeaters are down, you are once again limited to a relatively short line of site transmission on these bands/frequencies. Please, lets not argue about the potential of skip and ducting (a form of skip) because they are unreliable for consistent communications on these bands.

If you are looking for long distance communications, HF is where you want to be for consistency. CB is in this group but the power limitations really hamper it's ability to talk distance (legally). Where as, many ham radios in the HF range are allowed more power. And after using them for a while you will discover that some frequencies are better during the day and some at night. Very often, with only 100watts and a home made wire antenna suspended between a couple of trees these radios can consistently talk hundreds if not thousands of miles. With a general license, you are allowed on most HF bands, over 1,000watts of power. These signals can skip (propagate) all over the world.
Anyone can buy ham radio gear, but you are not allowed to talk on it with out a license. To take a test it costs about 15 dollars per test and there are three levels I believe. Tech (mostly for UHF and VHF and a very small sliver of HF), General (UHF and VHF and HF (minus a very small sliver) and Extra. which opens up all the ham bands.

The biggest advantage of having your ham license is being able to talk and get use to the equipment before an emergency happens. How far will a signal go? How clear will it be? This are all things that you can test on a daily basis once you are on the air.

What radio would be best for what you need? My best answer is, it depends on your individual need. But remember this, there is no such thing as radio privacy.... there is always some one out there listening. One article I read gave the number,,, if you are talking to one person,,, ten are listening,,, if two,,, then twenty are listening.

[JohnE]

Which of these do you think would be more effective in persuading someone not to modify their FRS radio to have an external antenna and higher power?

Modifying FRS radios is illegal and if you're caught, you can end up with huge fines and have your radio taken away . And it's illegal to discuss breaking laws on here so don't break the rules of the forum!

Modifying FRS radios isn't allowed under the FCC regulations, but if what you're wanting is the ability to have higher power output and use external antennas on UHF, you should look into GMRS. GMRS allows you much greater flexibility with your equipment and power levels. While it does require a license, the GMRS channels are much less crowded.

I think you missed all of my points, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do anything. I offer information to those who seek it. I try to be truthful and honest when doing so. Anyone wishing to know something or get information from another should be the one doing the persuading, persuading those with the knowledge to share it. The specific example that gets tossed around here a lot is the modification of radios, anyone who spends more than a couple of minutes of reading would know that modifying radios like the FRS and GMRS types is for all intent and purpose, illegal. Anyone who posts here has agreed to play by the rules before they ever post a single comment. I have no interest in persuading anyone from doing something stupid or illegal if they're so lazy that they can't do the absolute minimum amount of research into a topic that they're pursuing.

I don't tell people what to do, nor do I really care all that much unless their activity is going to directly affect myself or my family, if they're dumb enough to post their plans to do something illegal on a public forum then they get whatever comes from that behaviour. The folks here who let people know that they're violating ZS rules usually do it very nicely and politely until such time that the person proposing to break the rules makes an ass out of themselves. Look no further than the thread entitled "Coms and COMSEC" on this very forum for an example.

I might be abrupt and that may seem rude but the reality is that if someone takes the information that I; and others, present here and decide that they're going to get offended by the way it's presented, the impetus is on them to decide if the information offered is valuable enough to suffer thru any rudeness in the presentation. I'm civil to everyone, I'm polite to those who give civility back and I'm respectful of those who offer respect in kind, I couldn't care less about people who get offended when they get called on their own bullshit. In the interest of fairness, I'll also point out that at no time in this thread have I referred to anyone as an asshole or a dick or participated in any of the other juvenile name-calling that some here feel the need to do. As I wrote, I'm civil to everyone, whether they deserve it or not.

I have a friend who can be a complete horses ass at times, he answers his work phone with the phrase "good afternoon" instead of repeating the name of his company because he assumes that anyone calling knows who they're calling. He tells his customers the truth about what they ask him to do, sometimes that means they leave without their work being done. Most of the time they leave with exactly what they wanted at a very reasonable price. Why am I relating this ?, because he treats people with intelligence and civility until they prove they're not worthy of it. I try to emulate him whenever possible.

One last example, if a person comes to this forum and simply asks, "what's involved in getting an amateur radio license and where can I find more information about doing so and why should or shouldn't I do that ?" I'd have no problem trying to help even though that topic has been covered many times. On the other hand, when people come here and announce that they want help to do something illegal and they don't care about the FCC or ZS rules then they're going to get the response they deserve. That's what my original post was about.

[angelofwar]

At the OP...I think what these guys are getting at with there responses, is instead of just posting a thread to "complain", FIX the problem. Complaining about people (other ZS'ers) is a mute point. Why not start a helpful thread with a list of different communications options, and the pro's and cons of each?

SAMPLE:

Thread Title "Comm Sticky"

CB (Civilian Band):
-Pro's: Reliable, decent range, easily found. Widely known/available, easy to use. Dedicated emergency channel still monitored by several LE/Emergency agencies.
-Cons: A decent rig can cost $$$.

FRS:
-Pro's: Easy to use, widely available.
-Cons: May be congested during an extended emergency.

Etc. You could even include a listing of Low/Med/High priced/quality models of each. Another idea is to have a questionnare laying out options (we use soemthing like this on antoher forum to help NEWBs pick out a flashlight):

SAMPLE:

I'm looking for:
___A radio to pick up transmissions (AM/FM/SW/Weather Band, etc.; List all that apply)
___I'm looking to transmit info only (distress signals, etc.)
___A radio/instrument that can send and receive communications

What is your Budget:
___~$25
___$25-$50
___$50-$100
___$100-$200
___Price isn't important

What range are you looking for:
___ Around the house/base camp (100-200 yards) {FRS/GMRS}
___"Scouting" (1-5 miles) {CB, GMRS, etc.)
___Relaying (~20 miles) {CB, Some GMRS, HAM}
___ I want to talk to the ISS (or at least hear aircraft) {HAM, other}

This is just a sample...but, over-all, I think something liek this can end your problem, and other problems with "wasted threads". Not to sound prickish, but I just wanted to appease the OP and the others, and hope something like this will work.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

On the other hand, when people come here and announce that they want help to do something illegal and they don't care about the FCC or ZS rules then they're going to get the response they deserve. That's what my original post was about.

When that happens, use the report button. As I said earlier, this thread had no real value until the "radios for noobs" idea came up. Just saying.

[angelofwar]

Also, take it easy on the new guys...cause even the "elite" get it wrong sometimes...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/07/navy-seal-dies-after-accidentally-shooting-himself/?test=latestnews

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Also, take it easy on the new guys...cause even the "elite" get it wrong sometimes...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/01/07/navy-seal-dies-after-accidentally-shooting-himself/?test=latestnews

Dumb boot is a state of mind and being, not a level of training.

[Boyscoutdreams]

Angelofwar that is kinda what I was getting at.... pick the right radio for what you trying to do,,, though I did leave out the price variable. Each one does have it's place and uses. And of course, simply because they are so available CB, FRS and GMRS will be very busy during most emergencies. At least until the batteries stop being plentiful, since most people will not be able to recharge them. Thats another story all together isn't it.

Oh, though it doesn't belong here per say, but don't forget that all radio traffic can be a liability. Ham operators actually make a game out of tracking radio signals. It's called, I believe, a fox hunt. they have hand held radio tracking gear that they make or buy. It is amazing how fast they can locate a radio that is transmitting.

Illegally modify a radio? That is so lame an excuse when you can get a radio that can do what you want and do it better by buying better equipment. By the time you buy the radio,,,then pay for any modifications you have already spent more than buying a better radio that was made for what your trying to do. Again, that is one of the main benefits of the ham gear.... except the price ticket and needing a license to be able to play on it. But how do you know what your gear will do if you cannot use it on a regular basis.

[angelofwar]

You don't have to discuss illegally modifying a radio...the basics to building a radio are pretty cut and dry...building a radio from scratch is perfectly legal, so long as it doesn't interfere with gov approved devices. But, learning how to tune a home built radio (read: receiver), you can pick up pretty much anything if you tune it right. Radio waves are like light waves/colors...you can make any color you want, if you know what colors to mix/how to bend the sphere.

[ProstheticWeasel]

I can remember back to my first questions here a few years ago. I knew pretty much squat. I asked about HTs and got some answers that HTs were not good options for a first radio. I bought a HT anyway and then I found out why it was not a good choice. But I still have it and in my case it turned out to be a decent choice since I don't transmit.

I would say a FAQ thread for such things would be good but I think there is one. It is just a bit thick and if you are new to radio a bit hard to follow for a lot of hollywood radio misconceptions mentioned in this thread.

[44Dave]

I would say a FAQ thread for such things would be good but I think there is one. It is just a bit thick and if you are new to radio a bit hard to follow for a lot of hollywood radio misconceptions mentioned in this thread.

There isn't a good FAQ that goes into what angelofwar's first draft post mentions. Not that I could find anyway.
It's badly needed.

[Boyscoutdreams]

ProstheticWeasel why would you day the HT was a bad choice for a first radio,,,, other than not being able to use it unless you have a license?

[ProstheticWeasel]

ProstheticWeasel why would you day the HT was a bad choice for a first radio,,,, other than not being able to use it unless you have a license?

I found I wanted to be able to listen to ssb for one thing; not too many HTs that do ssb. I got a yeasu vx-7 and I really like the radio but being able to program it via the computer would have been nice. The vx-7 has a lot of option buried in it if you don't know what your doing it is kind of hard to sort out.

If I had to do it over again I would have picked up something different. But the vx7 worked out well enough.

[KYZHunters]

Maybe we should just sticky this article to answer the persistent question about do-everything radios: http://www.stripes.com/news/army-sought-universal-radio-but-created-a-boondoggle-1.165513#.Tw1fS8jper0.twitter

[TacAir]

Maybe we should just sticky this article to answer the persistent question about do-everything radios: http://www.stripes.com/news/army-sought-universal-radio-but-created-a-boondoggle-1.165513#.Tw1fS8jper0.twitter

LOL

Thanks
A $57K radio is considered a 'bargain'

Then the "JTRS’ history is one of grand but naive technological ambition colliding with the unbending laws of physics and the unforgiving exigencies of modern warfare. "
and
"everything the Army touched turned to crap" was a classic comment.

I was demo'ing a AN/PRC-104 at an open house many years and the person asked why the (HF) radio had to "cost so much".
When I pointed that that I had left the radio outside, to cold soak a -40 degrees for two full days, then turned it on - attached the handset (warm I would add), and called an inbound C-130, the AC answered. Don't know too many 'civilian' radios that could do that, but I supposed there some.

But fifteen years start to finish? That kind o logistics lead time could, literally, be a killer in any future conflict.

[angelofwar]

"When it's springtime in Alaska, it's 40 below" ~ Johnny Horton

Always thought about doin' Tac-P (or arial gunner)...and my slow transition from a flashlight junkie to a radio junkie (I've been seriously looking at an ICOM R6/RX7) makes it even more intriguing...too bad I have too much time in to cross train...

I did pick up a pair of Motorola MH230's though after reading a lot of positive reviews. My old FRS/GMRS Radio's were starting to kick the bucket...and the NOAA/Micro USB features of these new models is a big plus.

[TacAir]

"When it's springtime in Alaska, it's 40 below" ~ Johnny Horton

Always thought about doin' Tac-P (or arial gunner)...and my slow transition from a flashlight junkie to a radio junkie (I've been seriously looking at an ICOM R6/RX7) makes it even more intriguing...too bad I have too much time in to cross train...

I did pick up a pair of Motorola MH230's though after reading a lot of positive reviews. My old FRS/GMRS Radio's were starting to kick the bucket...and the NOAA/Micro USB features of these new models is a big plus.

I have an ICOM R2 and a R-5 that I picked up later. I understand the R-7 is a kick-ass radio. None have SSB, but I still carry one or the other (2 or 5) when traveling - good for scanner-ing and local Bcast radio of course. For SSB listening I use an ATS-909. All are great except for chewing thru batteries.

YA, I would say forget cross-training and focus on avoiding being RIF'd. Might be worth your time to write or tweak up the old resume. You know, just in case.

[KYZHunters]

LOL

Thanks
A $57K radio is considered a 'bargain'

Then the "JTRS’ history is one of grand but naive technological ambition colliding with the unbending laws of physics and the unforgiving exigencies of modern warfare. "
and
"everything the Army touched turned to crap" was a classic comment.

I was demo'ing a AN/PRC-104 at an open house many years and the person asked why the (HF) radio had to "cost so much".
When I pointed that that I had left the radio outside, to cold soak a -40 degrees for two full days, then turned it on - attached the handset (warm I would add), and called an inbound C-130, the AC answered. Don't know too many 'civilian' radios that could do that, but I supposed there some.

But fifteen years start to finish? That kind o logistics lead time could, literally, be a killer in any future conflict.

Reminds me of the Joint Simulation project I was involved in. A decade in only ten percent of the scheduled modules were done and only 10 percent of those had passed quality assurance...99% behind schedule after a billion dollars were spent. Glad they pulled the plug on that one.