need something for backup commo with wife

[crypto]

the brick is not a strawman, I'm talking about legal ways to do GMRS / MURS that dont involve cheap (but also made in china) blister pack radios. You can't legally run /any/ Wouxun (or puxing, or Baofeng, or any of the recent influx of cheap chinese radios) on GMRS or MURS.

Unless you want to break the law, you're stuck using a radio from someone who has gotten Part 95 acceptance for use on those bands. And right now that means either a shitty blisterpack radio, or a 2lb business brick.


I just ordered a Wouxun UV1P today, I'll let you know how I like it when it gets here. Its wide open, so I'll have to email you what I think of how it runs on MURS or GMRS, though, we dont talk about illegalities on the ZS forum.

Note: Thats exactly what I intend on using it for, BTW. If it works great, I might order some more of the knob-only radios and set them up for all 5 MURS, and the high-power GMRS freqs.

Again though, we dont have any repeaters around here, so its all simplex.

[williaty]

I think it's extremely clear that I've been arguing that you shouldn't be using FRS/GMRS based on what you want to do. My entire discussion has been to try to suggest to you and the other questioner that ARS really is a better technological solution for what you want to do.

[crypto]

Sure, and I started out by saying that ham was a turnoff and GMRS and MURS were simpler and more palatable alternatives for casual users. Which apparently you took issue with.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

If I may.

OP was looking for a radio to shoot three miles to his wife's school. CB or a decent walkabout will do it, with no classes, callsigns (which are a federal list and public domain, with your info, and this is a turnoff for some) no paying for licenses, and likely cheaper gear.

He aslo asked for a simple solution, without the jargon.

So OP, try a good walkabout (borrow if you can) or a CB id that doesn't work.

[mattltm]

hey all... i'm rather inexperienced with the radios. i can't tell the difference between VHF and UHF... but i know some basic stuff that CB is citizen band and it's different than the little multi-channel two way handhelds. my dad got me some midland handhelds last year for christmas. i'm a little concerned though they might not have enough range. i know they say 20 miles but of course you never get what they advertise. i'm sure that means with clear line of site on a flat desert. well, i don't live in a desert.

what i'm wanting to know is, is there a good brand and model radio that will reach a few miles to the nearby school where my wife works as a teacher? in case cell towers go out or whatever i'd like something she can put in her purse, even if she has to take the antenna off or fold it over, so she can still contact me for help or a ride home or whatever. would a CB have enough range? google says it's 3.1 miles from my house. it would need to go around trees and buildings until it reaches possibly an open window in her classroom.

can i get some recommendations without getting into complicated radio jargon? i just need something that works.

O.K., back to the OP...

I've been playing with radio as a profession for over 10 years now and have worked on many public service networks using both VHF and UHF handheld equipment. I have also worked on both analogue and digital HF equipment for world-wide communications in both a professional and ham capacity. To avoid being shot down (as many of us have different ideas and experience), this is just my take on the problem that you have and what I would think about if I was looking for a solution.

Basically, you want reliable communications over a distance of 3.1 miles through an urban environment using hand held equipment?

I'm not to familiar with the US system since I am in the UK but I believe that you have 3 choices over there...

UHF Licence free

The highest voice quality and reliable at short range. UHF is a LOS (Line of Sight) system so, if you can see it, you can hear it. At 3.1 miles, at ground level, through an urban environment, with hand held gear it is going to be patchy. Not a solid, reliable signal. The only way this is going to work is if you both have external antennas or go and stand on the roof.

VHF Licence free

Good voice quality only slightly lower that UHF. Better at dealing with urban environments and better for in-building reception. 3.1 miles will be on the limit of a hand held to hand held range for reliable communication. Having an external antenna on the roof of your home that you could connect to the hand held would make a big difference and provide better results for talking to the remote hand held.

HF Licence free

Again, the voice quality is a bit lower than VHF but its still good. A good held held CB will have little problem with 3.1 miles at ground level BUT it is very dependant on the antenna that the hand held uses. The advantage with VHF and UHF is that short antennas are OK and work well but with CB, due to the longer wavelength, an effective antenna needs to be Meters long rather that Centimetres long. Saying that, if you can fit an external antenna, CB would defiantly provide reliable communications to a hand held.

How would I tackle the problem? I would go with VHF to start off with. It offers the best chance of hand held to hand held communication without resorting to large, telescopic antennas. If I wanted to try it I would go down the route of getting some radios on sort term hire. If it worked I would then buy some quality radios (Motorola, Icom etc) and maybe invest in some better antennas for the units as most commercial equipment had compromised antennas.

As I said, I'm not in the US and this is just my take on the issue but it may help push the topic back on track and give you a few ideas.

[crypto]

Those are good insights.


I think it also goes without saying that any handheld isn't going to work well inside a vehicle, so consider whether you really want a handheld, or a mobile installation with an external antenna, depending on whether shes likely to be in the car when shes trying to reach you.

[zommoz10]

As for your original post's question;
I don't think you're going to fit anything in a purse that can reliably reach across a few miles unless it's barren, flat desert or void of any obstructions or terrain that doesn't depend on some infrastructure. At least, not entirely. With an external antenna, or mobile extender such as a vehicle repeater would enable you to do it. The latter would require some significant investment in equipment and licensing.

If you took a portable handheld radio on 4 or 5 watts and hooked it up to an external antenna, you'd have a very good chance of having reliable communication so long as there wasn't any real major obstructions in between the two of you such as a mountain or numerous large buildings. Your best bet, since it's for personal use, is the General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) if you're located in the United States. It's a rather expensive license fee, and to take advantage of the power limits, you'd need to buy a relatively expensive business or police type of radio. The ones on the sporting good stores don't normally have external antennas and are lower power. Their packaging is misleading and I personally believe that the FTC should clamp down on them for their outrageous claims for the range.

Alternatively... If an external antenna on your Wife's end is out of the question, if you can set up a base station on your end with a base antenna mounted fairly high, 30-40 feet or so you should be able to receive a 4-5 watt portable and with enough power out (25+ watts), your wife should be able to hear you too.

As for your reply;
Getting a ham license (in the United States) is not difficult. To say there's a learning curve is kind of humorous to me. If you're capable of studying and want it bad enough, you can pass the test. Many people get ham licenses that do not give a flying crap about having radio as a hobby. They don't use the long distance bands. Many just use it seasonally for things like storm chasing or occasionally such as search and rescue, camping, hunting, or other non commercial purposes. If you went this route, you'd spend a lot less on licensing and equipment is a lot cheaper too. You'll also be able to do a lot more with the equipment legally.

I do agree with you, there isn't a lot in between. The ultimate radio service would seem to be a blend of our GMRS and the Australian UHF CB. More channels, license free, high power, repeaters allowed, etc. But as the radio services are largely policed by other users, it's easy to see how such flexible terms could turn into a bit of a free for all. Up until recent years, public safety shared the same bands as GMRS and VHF high band which meant that interference from things like high power murs radios and GMRS equipment which is literally only a couple of KILOhertz away from GMRS frequencies could be a problem for mission critical communications.

Still.... at least bump murs up to 10 watts, allow any part 95 equipment and external antennas. That way at least it's useful for more than just employees at The Gap.

[gary in ohio]

Note: Thats exactly what I intend on using it for, BTW. If it works great, I might order some more of the knob-only radios and set them up for all 5 MURS, and the high-power GMRS freqs.
.

The Wouxun is NOT legal on ANY MURS freq. MURS radio must meet specific MURS requirements. yes you can use older commercial radio pre 2002 on at least 2 of the MURS channels, but any new radio must be manufactured specifically for MURS use only.

MURS radios must be manufactured to meet, and must be operated to comply with, the technical standards found in Part 95. MURS radios must be certificated (FCC approved) in accordance with 95.603 of the FCC Rules. Radios that were certificated for MURS use under the Business Radio Service rules (90.203) prior to the date of implementation of the new MURS rules (November 12, 2002) may also be used, even if they were manufactured or first used after that date.

[crypto]

Yep, I said that in every single post about the wouxuns.

You cant really use them on GMRS for the same reason.


I don't really care. And thats the end of the discussion about them on ZS.


Does anyone know of /any/ type-accepted MURS radios? The only think I can find is some shit made by Dakota and they look like junk.

[thosah]

If I may.

OP was looking for a radio to shoot three miles to his wife's school. CB or a decent walkabout will do it, with no classes, callsigns (which are a federal list and public domain, with your info, and this is a turnoff for some) no paying for licenses, and likely cheaper gear.

He aslo asked for a simple solution, without the jargon.

So OP, try a good walkabout (borrow if you can) or a CB id that doesn't work.

this is a good point... what type of radio system would require me to have a callsign with my personal info registered with the feds and public domain? although i've been in the military so they already know pretty much everything about me, it's still something i'd rather avoid. plus i'd prefer to not be "locked in" so to speak. if i want to change freqs or callsigns or whatever i'd prefer to be free to do so. also someone mentioned hooking a CB or something to an antenna on the roof to get better range from the home base. how would you go about doing that and about how high would you need it to be?

[zommoz10]

this is a good point... what type of radio system would require me to have a callsign with my personal info registered with the feds and public domain? although i've been in the military so they already know pretty much everything about me, it's still something i'd rather avoid. plus i'd prefer to not be "locked in" so to speak. if i want to change freqs or callsigns or whatever i'd prefer to be free to do so. also someone mentioned hooking a CB or something to an antenna on the roof to get better range from the home base. how would you go about doing that and about how high would you need it to be?

Regarding your privacy concerns, many hams use PO boxes so their address isn't in the database. It's a practice that I use since I use the ham band often when traveling and well, if I'm in Wyoming, I'm obviously not at home. Nothing quite like broadcasting to everyone listening that your home is ready to be burgled.

With other radio services, like the business band, they want to know where the station is located. So ham and gmrs would enable you to use a po box. Other than that, they don't ask you for very much information. They don't ask for your ssn. I don't even think they ask for you DOB. I know that in the past celebrities have used aliases even.

The second part of your Q, you asked about putting a CB antenna on the roof. I wouldn't recommend CB, if for no other reason, the CB portables are not purse friendly- they're huge, and the band doesn't work good in the suburbs nowadays with all the noise and interference from everything. Car to car on the road, ok. But portable use from inside a building, not so great. Now if you use FM instead, you can pick up a base antenna and a mobile radio and power supply and make that your base station. Put your antennna on a mast outside and you've got a base station. I'm not trying to persuade you to become a ham but the ham antennas are less expensive and so are the radios. The price for new equipment for the base setup I just described would run about $300-350 for a ham base station and about $600 for a basic business radio base station. You can get a very small purse-friendly ham portable for about $110.

[thosah]

by the way... i don't think i mentioned this before. although on the technical side as far as programming and stuff like that, i wanted to keep it simple, on the gadget side i think it would be really cool to get something that's a little bit modular. i've got a pack for my BOB that has slots in the top for hydration hoses and radio antennas. it would be great to keep an extra long antenna in the pack and a hand mic with a cord. that way i can either headset or do like cops do and just put a little hand unit on my chest with a cord running back to the pack. also, i DON'T want a battery pack. i want something that runs on AA's or AAA's that i can recharge. i'm not just thinking of how to set something up for a home base if SHTF but also how it fits into my bug out plan should it be necessary.

[zommoz10]

by the way... i don't think i mentioned this before. although on the technical side as far as programming and stuff like that, i wanted to keep it simple, on the gadget side i think it would be really cool to get something that's a little bit modular. i've got a pack for my BOB that has slots in the top for hydration hoses and radio antennas. it would be great to keep an extra long antenna in the pack and a hand mic with a cord. that way i can either headset or do like cops do and just put a little hand unit on my chest with a cord running back to the pack. also, i DON'T want a battery pack. i want something that runs on AA's or AAA's that i can recharge. i'm not just thinking of how to set something up for a home base if SHTF but also how it fits into my bug out plan should it be necessary.

If money is no object those are all very reasonable, achievable requests.

[KJ4VOV]

by the way... i don't think i mentioned this before. although on the technical side as far as programming and stuff like that, i wanted to keep it simple, on the gadget side i think it would be really cool to get something that's a little bit modular. i've got a pack for my BOB that has slots in the top for hydration hoses and radio antennas. it would be great to keep an extra long antenna in the pack and a hand mic with a cord. that way i can either headset or do like cops do and just put a little hand unit on my chest with a cord running back to the pack. also, i DON'T want a battery pack. i want something that runs on AA's or AAA's that i can recharge. i'm not just thinking of how to set something up for a home base if SHTF but also how it fits into my bug out plan should it be necessary.

I don't quite "get" the reasoning behind this. You don't want a battery pack (which you'd have to recharge). Instead, you want it to run on rechargeable AA or AAA cells. Huh? Either way you have to recharge...

[thosah]

thank you very much for bumping this thread! however, your question is beyond the scope of this discussion. we're primarily discussing radios/radio features. talking about which battery brands or types of batteries are better or their proper applications is not relevant. if you were to do a google search or ask a buddy i'm sure they could tell you all the reasons why, in any given situation, single cell batteries may be preferred over a cell pack. also keep in mind alkaline AAs also become an option if i go with that feature. thank you for your input.

[KJ4VOV]

thank you very much for bumping this thread! however, your question is beyond the scope of this discussion. we're primarily discussing radios/radio features. talking about which battery brands or types of batteries are better or their proper applications is not relevant. if you were to do a google search or ask a buddy i'm sure they could tell you all the reasons why, in any given situation, single cell batteries may be preferred over a cell pack. also keep in mind alkaline AAs also become an option if i go with that feature. thank you for your input.

Considering that you made primary cell operation one of your criteria in the choice of a radio, I believe clarification of your reason for that is well within the scope of the discussion. It would seem that you might be unaware that, on many good radios, the battery pack isn't "built in", and is easily replaced with another pack, or with primary cells. To use amateur radio equipment as an example (the choice of what best suits your needs is entirely up to you and this is merely an example) most amateur HT's can also use battery packs made to contain alkaline primary cells, or (as you were specifying) rechargeable AA or AAA (depending on the pack) cells. Indeed, many hams I know keep one or two such packs in their gear bags for emergency use. Of course, when you start using rechargeable AA's in a pack designed for alkaline AA's you may run into low voltage issues, since most rechargeable cells will have a voltage of about 1.25, while alkaline cells will be 1.5 volts, so if the pack contains say eight cells, you're then supplying a full two volts less than what the pack was intended to supply. Even if the radio were solely designed to work from primary cells, leaving battery "packs" completely out of the picture, that drop in voltage might still be the critical difference between getting your communication through or just listening to static.

Oh, and I didn't have to Google a single thing to post this, or ask anyone for help because, believe it or not, we actually covered stuff like this in class when I got my E.E. degree twenty years ago. Imagine that!

[thosah]

those are excellent points about the difference in voltages between alkaline and rechargeables. however, i have to go with a single solution. gota weigh the pros and cons of each option and have already decided that it would be better for me to find a unit that can do what i need to that uses individual cells over using a battery pack, even if it requires more cells to do the job that a battery pack could do. since it seems you really want to open this aspect, i will explain that it's important for me to avoid as much proprietary technology as possible, because you then get locked into something that could fail, and then leave you up the creek without a paddle. take my nikon D40 for example. if the battery ever dies in that thing, i'm SCREWED... sure, it holds a great charge and lasts forever, as is the case with most battery packs. but all tech has a mean time before failure rate. eventually that battery will wear out and won't hold a charge. i will then be required to buy an expensive replacement from nikon or go without. in a bugout situation, i need equipment that i can count on in the worst of situations and i don't need one more variable in an already critical situation to go wrong. even if my solar charger doesn't work, or the rechargeable AAs die, chances are i'd be able to find some alkaline cells laying around somewhere that will get me through.

[williaty]

The counter to your statement is that there are downsides to using rechargeable AA or AAA batteries in radios:

1) Some radios may not run at all on rechargeables due to the lower voltage even with fully charged batteries.
2) A larger number of radios will not run at full power, and actually may run at severely reduced power, AA/AAA batteries and it'll be even weaker with rechargeable batteries.
3) A MUCH larger number of radios will experience severely reduced operating time on AA/AAA batteries and it'll be even shorter if the AA/AAA batteries are rechargeable.


I understand where you're coming from on the proprietary parts thing, mostly. However, you're basically saying you want to buy a pedal-powered car because you hate being locked into gasoline. Anyway, it's also not as big of a problem as you're making it out to be. First, there's DOZENS of knock-off battery companies around. You don't have to buy an Icom/Kenwood/Yaesu/Alinco battery. You can buy one with double the capacity at a quarter the cost. Your local BatteriesPlus can also make custom ones for you. You're not locked-in.

Finally, the smart money is on having a couple of the proper rechargeable battery packs for the radio plus the cage to shove AA/AAA batteries into in an emergency. In normal operations, the radio will perform to its fullest extent. If things go really, badly wrong, you can fall back onto AA/AAA batteries with the accompanying reduction in performance. That being said, if you end up on primary or rechargeable batteries, that counts as a preps failure. Ideally, you should have a grid-down solution for recharging the real battery packs for the radio if the radios are important to your preparedness plans.

[KJ4VOV]

those are excellent points about the difference in voltages between alkaline and rechargeables. however, i have to go with a single solution. gota weigh the pros and cons of each option and have already decided that it would be better for me to find a unit that can do what i need to that uses individual cells over using a battery pack, even if it requires more cells to do the job that a battery pack could do. since it seems you really want to open this aspect, i will explain that it's important for me to avoid as much proprietary technology as possible, because you then get locked into something that could fail, and then leave you up the creek without a paddle. take my nikon D40 for example. if the battery ever dies in that thing, i'm SCREWED... sure, it holds a great charge and lasts forever, as is the case with most battery packs. but all tech has a mean time before failure rate. eventually that battery will wear out and won't hold a charge. i will then be required to buy an expensive replacement from nikon or go without. in a bugout situation, i need equipment that i can count on in the worst of situations and i don't need one more variable in an already critical situation to go wrong. even if my solar charger doesn't work, or the rechargeable AAs die, chances are i'd be able to find some alkaline cells laying around somewhere that will get me through.

I see your points and I agree with you to a certain extent. When I was in the military my unit had an unofficial motto, "Redundancy is good. Redundancy is good. Redundancy is good." While having those rechargeable AA cells is a good plan, and I appreciate that this is your backup commo plan, what happens if the charging system itself fails? Sure, failure of any single cell won't hurt much, but if the unit you charge them with dies then those individual cells are just dead weight once they're depleted. However, if you were to use them as backup (with the appropriate pack to fit them into the radio) and used the stock battery pack (or a higher capacity non-OEM pack) you'd have more redundancy. The stock packs can be recharged by the charging circuit built into the radio, and if that fails then you can still fall back to the AA cells. The added "bonus" with this is that you free up the AA cells (and charger) for other things (like flashlights, etc.) and can charge the radio and cells for your other items at the same time.

I'd also point out that most radios these days come standard with a rechargeable pack anyway (so you'll still have it whether you choose to use it or not) and will need to pick up a AA cell "pack" to run the radio on those too. One exception to that (which I know personally from experience) would be some of the Cobra FRS/GMRS HT's that use battery packs, but which take AAA's directly into the same battery compartment when you remove the pack, no extra "tray" or "cage" needed.

[zommoz10]

Requesting a portable radio that runs on aa batteries (alkaline or otherwise) is quite common, especially for fire services out west that battle wildfires and are in the field for days on end.

Most hammy-talkies have an optional AA battery tray you can get.

But if you want to look like a cop and have a public safety radio with remote speaker mic with rf connection, I see an XTS series motorola in your future or some other public safety radio. Just be prepared for a battery tray that will cost more to buy than a new hammy-talkie.

[KJ4VOV]

Requesting a portable radio that runs on aa batteries (alkaline or otherwise) is quite common, especially for fire services out west that battle wildfires and are in the field for days on end.

Most hammy-talkies have an optional AA battery tray you can get.

But if you want to look like a cop and have a public safety radio with remote speaker mic with rf connection, I see an XTS series motorola in your future or some other public safety radio. Just be prepared for a battery tray that will cost more to buy than a new hammy-talkie.

On the plus side, those XTS's (I have two of them) make pretty good blunt instruments.

[thosah]

it's not so much about looking like a cop as it is redundancy, like he said. i have a vest with enough equipment and ammo, food, etc, to last me 24 - 72 hrs. this vest is meant to give me enough supplies to get me out of a critical danger area. i think of the pack as more of an extension of that idea, instead of the end-all solution. the idea being that if i usually keep my pack at home, i'd at least keep the vest in my car or something like that. also, once i get out of the danger area and i set up base camp, i'd still be able to carry around some essentials without having to lug the pack too. it's also a comfort issue. with multiple individual pockets specialized for specific equipment, i can distribute a good amount of gear well and keep things handy. this is where the walkie comes in. if i just had my vest, i wouldn't encumber it with the extra hand mic and antenna and stuff, extra batteries, etc. it's meant for more scouting/excursions. i'd leave those items in the pack back at the base camp, or the operator at the base camp could use them to ensure a better range while keeping my load lighter.

so, more succinctly, think of my pack as an upgrade to everything already carried on my vest. better, bigger maps, more food and water, maybe night vision, a shelter instead of just a poncho or emergency blanket. you get the idea. and, while donning the pack, it makes more sense to put the radio in it, especially if i can support a bigger antenna that way, rather than keeping another bulky item on my vest when i'll have a dozen or more other things there already.

to get back to the batteries... if you could explain this battery cage thing to me that would be great. i've never heard of it before. but if i'm understanding you correctly, you're able to substitute the "battery pack" that is usually a lithium ion proprietary cartridge, with another unit that is made to fit that slot. and then this secondary unit will accept regular AA or AAA cell batteries as needed? i would imagine that would reduce talk-time a bit but that's a pretty handy idea. now if we could get some ideas on how to recharge the lithium ion pack out in the field that would be great. cause, as in the nikon example, the battery pack comes with it's own special charging unit that requires AC 110 voltage.

[williaty]

to get back to the batteries... if you could explain this battery cage thing to me that would be great. i've never heard of it before. but if i'm understanding you correctly, you're able to substitute the "battery pack" that is usually a lithium ion proprietary cartridge, with another unit that is made to fit that slot. and then this secondary unit will accept regular AA or AAA cell batteries as needed? i would imagine that would reduce talk-time a bit but that's a pretty handy idea. now if we could get some ideas on how to recharge the lithium ion pack out in the field that would be great. cause, as in the nikon example, the battery pack comes with it's own special charging unit that requires AC 110 voltage.

Correct, basically every amateur radio on the market is like that at this point. As I said in my earlier post, no matter how you run a radio off of AA/AAA batteries, you'll always take a power and run time penalty compared to a proper battery pack. However, it's an effective way to get your ass out of the fire.

Recharging radios in the field is a solved problem. Hams have been doing it for the last 50 years at least. There's hundreds of articles on the net about ways to recharge and directly power a radio from just about every source of power available from gasoline, to solar, to bikes. Just google a bit and you'll find some cool ideas.

[KJ4VOV]

to get back to the batteries... if you could explain this battery cage thing to me that would be great. i've never heard of it before. but if i'm understanding you correctly, you're able to substitute the "battery pack" that is usually a lithium ion proprietary cartridge, with another unit that is made to fit that slot. and then this secondary unit will accept regular AA or AAA cell batteries as needed? i would imagine that would reduce talk-time a bit but that's a pretty handy idea. now if we could get some ideas on how to recharge the lithium ion pack out in the field that would be great. cause, as in the nikon example, the battery pack comes with it's own special charging unit that requires AC 110 voltage.

Just to elaborate on what Will said, whatever power source you're using to charge the AA cells can probably recharge the battery in the HT. Just about every good ham HT that I can think of has a way to charge packs in the radio from 12vdc, and so do many other types of HT's.

Let me see if I can provide a couple of links for you, just to give you an idea of what we're talking about with AA packs. They'll be for ham gear, which may not be the choice you finally make, but they're easy for me to get to and they illustrate the idea very nicely.

Okay, here's some pictures of two battery packs for the Yaesu FT-60R amateur HT. The first is a picture of the standard FNB-83 1400mAh Ni-MH battery pack:



The second is of the optional FBA-25A Battery Tray for using alkaline cells in that same radio:



See how it works?