AAR from walking into a burglary-in-progress at my house

[doc66]

What could you have done differently?

Nothing.

You made decisions based on your experience and once you started your loop, you were committed to a particular course of action.

Your only foible was thinking that a firearm was going to stop the targets actions. It would have, but the results would have been, for this situation; pulling the trigger. A firearm is a tool that you would have to be willing to use and carry the encounter carry to its conclusion; if you are going to try and use it as simply a deterrent, it is ineffective at best, in this case. I'm not saying that you should have shot him, but that is the conclusion that was being presented to you. In Ohio, you could have pulled the trigger. However, that does not mean you would not have been prosecuted. The totality of the circumstances would have been examined and investigated. Depending on the law director and the evidence found, is whether or not you would have been found to be acting within the scope of the law as it is written. Too many people think that Castle Doctrine means that you can get away with shooting people just because they are in your home. There is still going to be an investigation, there is still going to be charges pending, and you will still be questioned. First and foremost to be sure you have simply not executed someone in your home because of a grudge or argument.

I'm glad that you did not shoot this particular target while it was laying on the floor with the muzzle of your rifle pressed against it's head.

I know that you are kind of looking for a blow by blow critique of what went down, but honestly, you handled the situation according to what you believed was the best course of action in that moment in time and it worked well for you.

The things to change;
1) Practice using the flash as a weapon. As you stated, it would have blinded or disoriented the target, possibly giving you time to take another course of action.
2) The choke hold. I love that hold. I have used it over and over to subdue people with good results and arrest. (for those who do not know the choke hold, it is not really a choke per se, it is a restriction of blood flow to the brain which causes the subject it is applied to to lapse into unconsciousness. They can still breath and you apply little to no pressure to the throat.) While choking this asshat out several times was the course of action you took, and committed too, it left you unable to do anything else and you had to rely on the neighbor to relay information. In this case, it worked. Do it once. Get control, and get out. You are in no way required to subdue and hold a person for LEOs.
3) Once the target is downed by your choke hold; your course of action probably should have been to leave your apartment; nothing you have can not be replaced. Only your life is priceless. Calling the police from a place of safety is the smarter move. Would the target have broken more shit? Maybe. Would it have "gotten away?" More than likely. However, that is a small price compared to the possibility, however small, of you not getting the upper hand.
4) Leave distance between yourself and the target. By closing in on the target, you left little room for error and ending up ditching the weapon in favor of less lethal action. That put the firearm in place to be used by anyone.

Now is not the time to second guess your actions. Now is the time to examine what you will do the next time. Now is the time to come up with a new plan for entering your home.

You did well. You came out alive and unscathed (mostly). Don't beat yourself up about whether or not you could have done it differently; you did it exactly as you should have because you are alive and the fuck was arrested.

If you need to call and talk, drop a dime and give me a call.

You did right.

[jamoni]

To the people who say the OP should have left the moment he saw someone in the house, I have some points:
1. People are animals. We are smart, and have thumbs, and wear fancy clothes, but at the end of the day we are animals. Your first reaction as a healthy male will most likely be "Who the fuck are you?! Get the fuck out of here!" We're wired like that.
2. There is a reaction lag under weird circumstances, especially in familiar areas. When you are home, you are expecting to throw your keys down, take off your shoes, and go get a beer or something. You are NOT expecting a crackhead on the couch. There will be a noticeable lag between receiving this information and processing it. I call it 'hitting the reset button'. You just reset your brain, and it takes a second to restart. For people who have no training, this is the part where they die, because thinking about things at this point is futile. You will revert to your training.
3. This shit happens FAST. Adrenaline effects and "time travelling" make it seem like forever, but it was probably only a second or two between the time the OP entered the house and the time he became physically engaged with the intruder.
4. It's easy to say "let him run away, he might have a knife, etc". But again, we are animals. When another animal attacks, we either fight or run, and as it happens so fast, it's really not up to conscious thought. Again, you revert to your training.
In other words, you come home, there's a split second of WTF and chaos, some dude rushes you, so you choke his ass out.
EDIT: also, you now have the coolest bar story ever. "Hey, tell these girls about the time you choked out that tweeker!"

[Braxton]

Just realized that this was playing as I read the thread.

[Paladin1]

Perfect! Now GF has a theme song!!

[duodecima]

To the people who say the OP should have left the moment he saw someone in the house, I have some points:
1. People are animals. We are smart, and have thumbs, and wear fancy clothes, but at the end of the day we are animals. Your first reaction as a healthy male will most likely be "Who the fuck are you?! Get the fuck out of here!" We're wired like that.
2. There is a reaction lag under weird circumstances, especially in familiar areas. When you are home, you are expecting to throw your keys down, take off your shoes, and go get a beer or something. You are NOT expecting a crackhead on the couch. There will be a noticeable lag between receiving this information and processing it. I call it 'hitting the reset button'. You just reset your brain, and it takes a second to restart. For people who have no training, this is the part where they die, because thinking about things at this point is futile. You will revert to your training.
3. This shit happens FAST. Adrenaline effects and "time travelling" make it seem like forever, but it was probably only a second or two between the time the OP entered the house and the time he became physically engaged with the intruder.
4. It's easy to say "let him run away, he might have a knife, etc". But again, we are animals. When another animal attacks, we either fight or run, and as it happens so fast, it's really not up to conscious thought. Again, you revert to your training.
In other words, you come home, there's a split second of WTF and chaos, some dude rushes you, so you choke his ass out.
EDIT: also, you now have the coolest bar story ever. "Hey, tell these girls about the time you choked out that tweeker!"

I don't disagree - but some of us do not have the training and/or stature to choke somebody out. So while I have no criticism whatsoever of the OP's actions, it's a good point to raise, so that I mentally train myself to RUN rather than freeze. I've got that mindset down for walking along the street if I feel threatened, but until this, for whatever reason, I haven't thought of it for walking in to my own house.

[Kutter_0311]

Great job, Focker!!!

Any time you can choke a MF'er out instead of shooting him, you'll have a better time sleeping.

There were a number of things that could have gone badly, but you got lucky, and they didn't. I would not have let the dog out, myself, as I am not trained to fight with a dog, nor is the dog trained to fight with me. Wrapping someone up in a blood choke is something that takes practice, good job on that! Also, you then grabbed a weapon and cleared the rest of the house while BG#1 was napping. I'm really glad he didn't stick you with anything!

Obviously, had you been carrying when you walked in the door, the BG gave you clear reason to shoot when he charged at you declaring his murderous intent. After that, shooting would have been shakey, if only in your own mind. Perhaps sitting on the couch with your rifle would have been better, after clearing the house...

[eugene]

I skipped ahead from page 1 after reading the post about could have been legal because of the Ohio Castle Doctrine law. I was talking to a co-worker who moved up here (Ohio) from TX and had a CCW in TX (its called CHL or something there). He tool the class recently here in Ohio via a private instructor and his instructor advised him that while that is the law you need to still have ~$20,000 to pay for the court costs if you ever do have to shoot someone. So if what he says is correct it sounds like you saved yourself some hassle.
/OT but this seems to match what I've read on some other forums, that if you do ever shot someone your gun gets confiscated, and you may be arrested and have to go to court to defend yourself. So I've been trying to figure out what to do, I want to get a handgun eventually or what if I would use my shotgun in defense of my family, what happens if I have to go to jail/court, who takes care of my family then, seems like I loose either way.

[Kutter_0311]

I skipped ahead from page 1 after reading the post about could have been legal because of the Ohio Castle Doctrine law. I was talking to a co-worker who moved up here (Ohio) from TX and had a CCW in TX (its called CHL or something there). He tool the class recently here in Ohio via a private instructor and his instructor advised him that while that is the law you need to still have ~$20,000 to pay for the court costs if you ever do have to shoot someone. So if what he says is correct it sounds like you saved yourself some hassle.
/OT but this seems to match what I've read on some other forums, that if you do ever shot someone your gun gets confiscated, and you may be arrested and have to go to court to defend yourself. So I've been trying to figure out what to do, I want to get a handgun eventually or what if I would use my shotgun in defense of my family, what happens if I have to go to jail/court, who takes care of my family then, seems like I loose either way.

Yeah, it's always a hassle to shoot someone. Even if you were in the right, you'll have to prove you were in the right.

[eugene]

pretty much sounds like your guilty until proven innocent

[chills1994]

^^^ like I said, self-defense is an affirmative defense, which means you have to take the stand and testify (test-a-lie?). if you take the stand and the prosecution starts asking you questions, and all you have to say is "I wish to assert my Fifth Amendment rights." each jury member is going to look like this: and you'll most likely be found guilty.

However, and this is what I don't know....with Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws (aka "Make My Day" laws), if you shoot somebody within your home, does Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground laws pre-empt, automatically, any attempts from the prosecutor's office to pursue you criminally???

[chills1994]

as far as the price for a defense, around here lawyers, senior partners in a firm are billing out at $325 per hour. Or at least that is what I have figured out as an average. At a total bill of $20,000, supposedly, that is just 61 hours working on your case. Of course, you can always get a public defender, but I don't know how that would work with getting somebody as an expert witness like Ayoob to come testify at your trial.

[PackLemming]

One question, when he was out did you teabag him?

This

[Kommander]

This thread is another example of why it is so important to know your individual state laws. As I have mentioned in other threads AZ has very liberal self defence laws. For example the use of lethal force is authorized against both armed and unarmed burglars and no warning before shooting is required. Also this state no longer does the afirmative defence thing. Once someone states that they were defending themselves it is up to the state to prove that they were not.

That said I am not saying that the OP should have lit the guy up like a dutch brothel. The outcome was positive so playing armchair general at this point would not be productive.

[Nozoki]

You say it was dark in your house. Do you suppose the guy broke in, made it to the living room and heard your dog barking but couldn't make out that he was crated so he sits down and doesn't move a muscle?

Any crazy ex girlfriends that would hire a crack head to kill you?

[chills1994]

Kommander wrote:

Also this state no longer does the afirmative defence thing. Once someone states that they were defending themselves it is up to the state to prove that they were not.

That is good to hear!

[DarkAxel]

However, and this is what I don't know....with Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws (aka "Make My Day" laws), if you shoot somebody within your home, does Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground laws pre-empt, automatically, any attempts from the prosecutor's office to pursue you criminally???

From what I understand of most Castle Doctrine laws, there will be an investigation into the shooting, and the prosecutor has to get an indictment from a Grand jury before proceeding to any trial. If it's a clear-cut case of self-defense, the prosecutor might not even take it to the Grand jury because they couldn't get an indictment out of the evidence they have. If the shooting was in the grey area, like in Greg Focker's case had he shot the shitbird, a the case probably would end up in front of a Grand jury. Where it goes from there depends on the jurors.

Whether or not you get arrested is up to the police responding to the call out.

[Paladin1]

I would not have let the dog out, myself, as I am not trained to fight with a dog, nor is the dog trained to fight with me.

Maybe I'm missing something? I know there is protection training for dogs and obviously, police/military dogs train with their handlers, but I don't get not using your GSD (or other appropriate dog) for protection?

GSD's (in my case, a Ridgeback) have natural protective instincts, they don't have to be trained per se. Although, additional training means greater control over them during an event.

Maybe I'm just not thinking it through right or I'm too low speed to understand

Back in the day it was simple:

BG wants to break in. You have protective dog. Dog runs to the window or door raising hell. 99% of BG's leave.

Or

BG breaks into home. Protective dog attacks BG. You have time to arm yourself, get out, call police, or whatever your POA is.

Maybe it's because I'm older, but I'm not going hand to hand with an unknown assailant unless I absolutely have no choice. I'm going to use every advantage I can. My dog is a force multiplier, like my Surefire, Boker folder, or PF9.

In this case, assuming I was not carrying at the moment, dog attacks BG as he charges me. BG has big, pissed off dog chomping on hand/arm/leg. I have options now.

At the very least, BG has dog and me on him. That's the matchup I want. Mano, El perro a mano.

[rhi]

This seems to me to have resulted in the best possible outcome. A ZS member safe and sound, a BG in police hands, and no blood stains or court cases to worry about.

Yes. Well done.

Only suggestions I can offer are:

- Make it a point to carry your cell phone with you, along with your blade and flashlight. If your upstairs neighbor hadn't been home, it would provide another means of communication with the police.
- Consider picking up some pepper spray or a Kimber Pepper Blaster. In a case like this where you couldn't legally CCW, it would give you another option in addition to the light and knife (although it may not have been effective due to the criminal's intoxication). Still, more options are generally better than fewer.

Glad that you and the pooch are OK.

[doc66]

What Castle Doctrine does give the home owner is what is called an "affirmative defense." Basically, it takes the duty to retreat (old law) out of the picture and allows the home owner to defend themselves and family and property in the event of an invasion, break in, what have you. It allows for the homeowner to have a defense against bad guys without the home owner having to worry about being arrested on the spot for defending ones self. Basically, it gives the homeowner the benefit of a doubt.

Old Ohio law (and other states, I'm sure) did not allow for the defense of self and home. It stated that the home owner had a duty to retreat if possible from the threat of the intruder. (I know of two cases where the home owner went to prison for defending themselves and home under old law.) Under Castle Doctrine, the homeowner can stand and defend themselves against a threat. The caveat is that they meet the definition of the defense under the guidelines set forth by the state. This definitions interpretation will depend on the local law director. As of yet, there is no case law that I know of about Castle Doctrine in Ohio.

Castle Doctrine does not relieve one of the responsibility of acting in a defensible manner which would stand up in a court of law.

Any action by anyone under Castle Doctrine is still subject to investigation and possible charges.

[Kutter_0311]

I would not have let the dog out, myself, as I am not trained to fight with a dog, nor is the dog trained to fight with me.

Maybe I'm missing something? I know there is protection training for dogs and obviously, police/military dogs train with their handlers, but I don't get not using your GSD (or other appropriate dog) for protection?

I guess the perspective I'm working from is that of a martial artist. I have a bit of training, and I know what I'm going to do with his anatomy based on how he approaches me. What I don't know is what my big, strong, playful puppy is gonna do, or how the BG is gonna react to that puppy. I don't want to reach for the same limb Fido is grabbing for, as I don't wanna get bit, either. When I get him into position to choke him out(one of the general targets when you seek to pacify an attaker) will Fido be able to tell which limb is mine? Will Fido stop attacking when BG goes limp?

These are variables I don't want when I'm going hands-on with a BG.

If Fido was trained to do anything reliably in a fight, it would be an asset.

pretty much sounds like your guilty until proven innocent

Anywhere you go, shooting someone will draw legal ramifications. That's just how it goes when you shoot someone.

The circumstances of the shoot will dictate a lot, as will your handling of the police response. Your best friend is your lawyer.

[Czechnology]

Re: Dogs in a fight

I spent two years training MWD's (among other things) and I can tell you this: Once a dog's aggression is going, (even fully mature, adult dogs with $20,000 worth of training, who spend hours every week training to take people out with their handlers) that aggression can get out of control, and handlers have to be prepared to get hurt, or "persuade" their dogs physically to stop attacking. Knowing that, I would seriously hesitate to send a housepet puppy with nothing beyond sit/stay type training into a volatile situation I intend to wade into, and potentially make the situation worse. Even if you stand off with a firearm, have you ever trained to hit a man wrestling with a dog in a livingroom? I sure haven't, and couldn't guarantee I'd hit just the bad guy, ignoring the possible legal ramifications of shooting someone who is not directly a threat to you at the moment. Do you wait until he's killed your dog?

My Dalmatian is an excellent alarm/deterrent, but he has not received any defensive/protection training, and even though I know he'd protect me and mine, I would not have let him out in the same situation. This is assuming I had the situational awareness and presence of mind to even consider it. I guess what I'm saying is if it happens, I'll deal with it, but I'm not about to introduce my dog to a fight he's not already in.

In this specific scenario it is a VERY GOOD THING the dog was caged, as it would have been a shame if Gregg had to come home to a dog torn in half by the boat-head sitting on his couch.

[doc66]

Let's face it. Our dogs are going to be either house puppies, or bullet catchers.

As much as we all like Titus, Dave and I have agreed on this one thing; Titus is a bullet catcher if the situation calls for that. My German Shepherd was the same thing, and I loved that dog to the point I doubt I'll get another with his passing.

Think carefully how you want your dog to act. Melbourne was NOT an other people dog. He bit more than one person in his day. He was absolutely loyal and defensive with me and the house.

As Czech pointed out; the dog can get in the way.

[Paladin1]

OK, thanks for the reply's, it gives me some perspective on why people have their opinions.

I'm not a martial artist, so as I stated, I'm not going to get into a hand to hand fight if at all avoidable. There are too many things to go wrong, he has a weapon, buddy in another room, a slip or stumble, etc, etc.

To Czech points, if I have a weapon I'm not going to get the dog involved, that wasn't my contention.

Honestly, supposing I have a gun eliminates anything else you said.

Although that is exactly how they employ protection dogs. BG has weapon or position that would expose good guys to undue risk, they send in dog. Dog clamps onto BG, odds tilt in favor of good guys.

My point was if I have a choice of getting into a wrestling match with a BG, or using the dog, I'm using the dog.

My other point was that while I have absolutely no problem with crating, the dog can't be quite the deterrent while crated.

Doc66 hit on a good point. I think there are many pet owners that would rather protect their dog from harm. The thought of them catching a bullet, getting stabbed, etc. is so abhorrent to them that it's not part of their plan.

I remember awhile back when someone tried to break into Dave's and Titus went nuts. Titus was at the door and the guy bolted. Of course, Dave was right behind Titus. If the guy had made it into the house, he would have had both Titus and Dave to face.

I feel the same way, I love my dog, he's been awesome. I forgot how much I missed having one. But if it came down to it, Ranger is indeed a bullet catcher.

[shrapnel]

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