Helping a gas station owner sell gas in the PAW

[KJ4VOV]

I can't believe that no one here ever worked at or managed a gas station besides me...

Back in the 90's when I managed a station and 3 bay shop in NYC we had a hand pump for pumping water out of the bottom of the tanks. Very simple setup using a lever action hand pump attached to 12 feet of 3/4" copper tubing. Slip it down the tank fill and pump away.

(Note: just about all underground storage tanks will develop water in the bottom from condensation, and that water has to be pumped out when it reaches a certain depth)

Are all tanks less than 12 feet deep?

Whats at issue is the inability of a vacuum pump to lift liquids beyond 20 feet or so.

Yep, most are 12' or less, though I've seen a few bigger ones that were 20'. In many parts of the country you have to manually "stick" the tanks twice a day. Sticking the tanks means taking a 15' measuring stick, dropping it into the tank, pulling it back up and seeing how high the product level is on the stick, then writing that into the log. Yes, there's automatic systems that do this now, much more accurate than the stick, but in some places they still want stick readings for tax purposes.

And, I'd like to point out that even if the tank is 20' deep, unless you're trying to get the last dregs out of the bottom you'll never be lifting fuel that full 20'. You're only lifting it from the surface height of the product. So, if the tank is 10' high (plus 3' or so for the dirt and concrete over it) and half full, you're only lifting product about 8-9 feet.

[Aikibiker]

Getting power to the pumps seems the safest way overall to get the gas ou tof the ground. That just leaves how you would go about making the electricity to do it. It also seeems like negotiating with the gas station owner to start up a fuel business to get him the supplies he needs, and you the fuel you need to reach your final destination would be the best bargain you could strike. Otherwise you are just giving both parties, him and you a temporary solution to your problems.

The OP's post leads me to believe I am traveling during the PAW. Which means I will have most likely left the generator and the backup generator in the burned ruin of my BOL surrounded by the corpses of the raider army that drove me out. Pity that I had some good stuff there. If that isn't the case I would just try to bargain/plead for enough gas to go and get a generator and we are golden.

That leaves me with what I would have in my bug out vehicle and what I could reasonably find in the gas station and the surrounding area. If a 400w inverter is enough to power a gas pump then we should be in business with some salvaged wire from the station and a couple gallons of gas brought up with the owner's bucket. If that will not work there are several other places to source a generator from, but I think the best way would be to try and find a business partner willing to trade generator time and manpower for security for fuel.

All that remains is to find a container to put the fuel in once it is brought up from the tanks. First thing I can think of is a fuel tanker truck. I am not sure how common this is in CONUS, but over sea where i actually paid attention to them most tanker trucks had hoses with gas pump nozzles attached to them plumbed into the tank to make every fuel tanker a gravity fed gas pump if necessary. If that isn't available then I would try and find a large container (metal) that I could ground then plumb in a pipe with a stop cock or somethnig similar (heck a hose spigot might work temporarily) and attach it to one of the pump handles fromt eh gas station.

After I come up with storage and dispensation it is only amatter of designing a security plan to allow customers to come and fuel up their vehicles safely for whatever trade goods are needed.

[KJ4VOV]

In the old days, yeah, just supplying power to the pumps might have worked. But in the current age, with pay at the pump credit card readers and electronic inventory control and blending, no, it probably wouldn't be all that easy to do. It's not just a matter of powering up the pumps themselves anymore, now you have to power the whole pumping system and payment system.

[Aikibiker]

There is very little in the way of modern technology like those systems that cannot be subverted by tearing down and rewiring. Things like that are only to keep honest people honest.

[KJ4VOV]

There is very little in the way of modern technology like those systems that cannot be subverted by tearing down and rewiring. Things like that are only to keep honest people honest.

Sure, if you know how the system works and if you have the skills and time to do all that rewiring and modifying.

[williaty]

I think the easy/obvious answer has been skipped: an automotive fuel pump.

They're made to be submersed in gasoline. They're made to be non-sparking/non-igniting. Many of them are capable of rather surprising flow rates. Most of them will make at least 90psi, which is more than enough to lift fuel out of the tank. Wire the pump to a long electrical cable, attach some fuel hose to the pump, and tie it all to a rope. Lower it into the tank via the filling hole. Power the fuel pump from your car, just like normal. If you're smart, you'll use the same fuel pump that's in your car so you also have a spare fuel pump for your car.

[MacAttack]

For the truly industrious you could even uncover the tank, cut the straps holding it down to its cement footer pad and fill the hole its in with water. The whole tank will float up. Once its floating you can add gravel to the hole under the tank as it floats up. Eventually you will have a full tank of fuel up at ground level ready to be lifted or rolled onto a flat bed.

But heck that's just fantasy land crazy.

Crazy is right... The smallest tank I've ever seen in a gas station is 6,000 gallons and weighed around 12,000lbs. Empty. Oh, and it was covered by a minimum of 6" of steel reinforced concrete.

Your typical current commercial tank is going to be 10,000 gallons or more, will be encased in its own concrete vault, the top of the vault itself will be at least 3 feet below the concrete pavement and the concrete will be anywhere from 8" to 10" thick.

Good luck with that flotation plan.

Actually I watched over three days as something like that happened.
A local gas station went out of business and the new owners had to remove the tanks.
Since the area was only covered with about 3 inches of unreinforced cement (around here they don't or at least didn't tend to use reinforcements in parking lots or even gas stations.) They just busted it up and started to dig out the tank.
Got the whole thing uncovered and cut the straps holding it down.
That night it rained like a hurricane and it just turned out that the whole neighborhoods streets drained down the road right in front of the station. With all the infill, dirt and cement diverting some of it right into the hole.
By morning the tank was about a block away in someones front yard.


The concrete vaults are for new tanks. Old ones were just buried, strapped down to cement footers and coated in tar hoping to last 50 years. No one cared if they leaked unless it cost the owner a noticeable amount of gas loss.



So unless your trying this out on the brand new quicky mart in some big city you stand a pretty good chance of finding an older tank.

[MacAttack]

In the old days, yeah, just supplying power to the pumps might have worked. But in the current age, with pay at the pump credit card readers and electronic inventory control and blending, no, it probably wouldn't be all that easy to do. It's not just a matter of powering up the pumps themselves anymore, now you have to power the whole pumping system and payment system.

Those nifty new payment systems are nothing more than on/off switches in a wire circuit. Removing them is next to nothing. Direct wire the pump to a simple switch and power system and your home free. Most if not all electric motors have simple wiring diagrams right in them. If you can read them your home free.
You could even keep all the safety systems in place for over or under pressure and fires.

[Aikibiker]

There is very little in the way of modern technology like those systems that cannot be subverted by tearing down and rewiring. Things like that are only to keep honest people honest.

Sure, if you know how the system works and if you have the skills and time to do all that rewiring and modifying.

It is stripping off useless crap and rewiring a pump. It ain't rocket surgery. If you can install a car stereo system and perform a basic tune-up you can do the job.

The time factor is the important variable. Given it is the PAW who knows if zombies or raiders or whatever will show up while I am up to my elbows in electronic parts and striping wire and shit. Of course given my track record I will be pissed off enough half way through the job from all the little shit that will crop up (like dropping tools into dark places, getting bitten by spiders when I reach in to grab said tool, realizing the widget I need to finish the job is nowhere to be seen after I just had it, etc.) that anyone that interupts my work with something as trivial as gunfire is gonna get choked unconscious then beaten back awake with a socket wrench for their trouble.

[Czechnology]

Of course given my track record I will be pissed off enough half way through the job from all the little shit that will crop up (like dropping tools into dark places, getting bitten by spiders when I reach in to grab said tool, realizing the widget I need to finish the job is nowhere to be seen after I just had it, etc.) that anyone that interupts my work with something as trivial as gunfire is gonna get choked unconscious then beaten back awake with a socket wrench for their trouble.

...D-dad?

[jamoni]

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/irrigate/ae1057w.htm
Good stuff here. It says the maximum theoretical lift of a suction pump on water would be 33 feet.
Since gas is lighter, and theoretical is not the same as real world, I'd guess that around 30 feet of head would be your maximum with a suction pump. Seems like plenty to me.

[KJ4VOV]

Actually I watched over three days as something like that happened.
A local gas station went out of business and the new owners had to remove the tanks.
Since the area was only covered with about 3 inches of unreinforced cement (around here they don't or at least didn't tend to use reinforcements in parking lots or even gas stations.) They just busted it up and started to dig out the tank.
Got the whole thing uncovered and cut the straps holding it down.
That night it rained like a hurricane and it just turned out that the whole neighborhoods streets drained down the road right in front of the station. With all the infill, dirt and cement diverting some of it right into the hole.
By morning the tank was about a block away in someones front yard.


The concrete vaults are for new tanks. Old ones were just buried, strapped down to cement footers and coated in tar hoping to last 50 years. No one cared if they leaked unless it cost the owner a noticeable amount of gas loss.



So unless your trying this out on the brand new quicky mart in some big city you stand a pretty good chance of finding an older tank.

EPA required all underground storage tanks to be upgraded (new spill containment regs) or replaced about ten years ago, so the likelihood of finding one of those old tanks, in place and still containing usable product, is darn near nil.

[KJ4VOV]

In the old days, yeah, just supplying power to the pumps might have worked. But in the current age, with pay at the pump credit card readers and electronic inventory control and blending, no, it probably wouldn't be all that easy to do. It's not just a matter of powering up the pumps themselves anymore, now you have to power the whole pumping system and payment system.

Those nifty new payment systems are nothing more than on/off switches in a wire circuit. Removing them is next to nothing. Direct wire the pump to a simple switch and power system and your home free. Most if not all electric motors have simple wiring diagrams right in them. If you can read them your home free.
You could even keep all the safety systems in place for over or under pressure and fires.

Yes, you can direct wire the pump, but good luck rewiring the blend valves and removing the safeties to get product to actually flow to the pump. Not saying it can't be done, but it's going to be a bitch of a job and it's not something that can be done in a couple of hours with a roll of wire, hand tools and some duct tape.

The bottom line is, which way is going to be the quickest and least complex to get product out of the tank? Hand pump and 15' of copper tubing? Or a day or so rewiring and replumbing everything?

[raptor]

The bottom line is, which way is going to be the quickest and least complex to get product out of the tank? Hand pump and 15' of copper tubing? Or a day or so rewiring and replumbing everything?

The best way is plan ahead and have a 12 volt fuel pump.

http://www.pumpsandmeters.com/Emergency ... stems.aspx

[KJ4VOV]

The bottom line is, which way is going to be the quickest and least complex to get product out of the tank? Hand pump and 15' of copper tubing? Or a day or so rewiring and replumbing everything?

The best way is plan ahead and have a 12 volt fuel pump.

http://www.pumpsandmeters.com/Emergency ... stems.aspx

I won't deny that's a nice system, but is it really a viable solution? The cost is high, and it takes up a lot of space. What are you willing to give up carrying in your BOV to make room to carry such a system?

[DarkAxel]

I can't believe that no one here ever worked at or managed a gas station besides me...

Back in the 90's when I managed a station and 3 bay shop in NYC we had a hand pump for pumping water out of the bottom of the tanks. Very simple setup using a lever action hand pump attached to 12 feet of 3/4" copper tubing. Slip it down the tank fill and pump away.

(Note: just about all underground storage tanks will develop water in the bottom from condensation, and that water has to be pumped out when it reaches a certain depth)

Thanks for reminding me. Yup. I worked second shift for one station for a short time, and managed third shift at another for a couple years. Both stations had those automatic fuel level gauges, but every so often I'd have to stick the tanks for the fuel delivery truck. Never had to do water removal, though.

The problem with re-wiring the pumps is this: In most modern fuel pumping systems, the pump isn't in the fueling station (where you pump your gas into your car). All it is is an outlet that is turned on remotely and controlled by a computer system. The actual pumps are down in the tanks, just like the sending units for modern autos.

Also, my boss has two gasoline powered jet pumps, and one is rated for fuel use.

[KJ4VOV]

I can't believe that no one here ever worked at or managed a gas station besides me...

Back in the 90's when I managed a station and 3 bay shop in NYC we had a hand pump for pumping water out of the bottom of the tanks. Very simple setup using a lever action hand pump attached to 12 feet of 3/4" copper tubing. Slip it down the tank fill and pump away.

(Note: just about all underground storage tanks will develop water in the bottom from condensation, and that water has to be pumped out when it reaches a certain depth)

Thanks for reminding me. Yup. I worked second shift for one station for a short time, and managed third shift at another for a couple years. Both stations had those automatic fuel level gauges, but every so often I'd have to stick the tanks for the fuel delivery truck. Never had to do water removal, though.

The problem with re-wiring the pumps is this: In most modern fuel pumping systems, the pump isn't in the fueling station (where you pump your gas into your car). All it is is an outlet that is turned on remotely and controlled by a computer system. The actual pumps are down in the tanks, just like the sending units for modern autos.

Also, my boss has two gasoline powered jet pumps, and one is rated for fuel use.

A lot of the newer systems have water purge functions built in, so you rarely have to do that these days.

The other thing I've not seen mentioned, not even on that fancy system raptor posted, is that you can't just drop a hose down in the tank and start pumping. Tanks have floats in there to prevent that, and you have to physically push the float down to get to the product.

[raptor]

The bottom line is, which way is going to be the quickest and least complex to get product out of the tank? Hand pump and 15' of copper tubing? Or a day or so rewiring and replumbing everything?

The best way is plan ahead and have a 12 volt fuel pump.

http://www.pumpsandmeters.com/Emergency ... stems.aspx

I won't deny that's a nice system, but is it really a viable solution? The cost is high, and it takes up a lot of space. What are you willing to give up carrying in your BOV to make room to carry such a system?

For purposes of this thread we are helping the gas station owner sell fuel.

Also only large above ground tanks have "floats" in them.

[KJ4VOV]

I won't deny that's a nice system, but is it really a viable solution? The cost is high, and it takes up a lot of space. What are you willing to give up carrying in your BOV to make room to carry such a system?

For purposes of this thread we are helping the gas station owner sell fuel.

Right. And if he had one of these he wouldn't need our help, would he? So the conclusion I make from that logic is that we're supplying the pump, which brings us back to my question... What are you going to give up carrying in your BOV to make room for one of those?

[HKTackDriver]

The time required to fix his problem isn't worth the reward. If he's willing to load me with as much gas as I require in exchange for the "fix," then I'd deal.

First, I'd see what sort of engines he has available and I'd Jerry rig a small mower or weed whacker engine to a pool pump attached to a garden hose (with adapter fabricated by moi) and watch it go. Then I'd fill every container I could scrounge and be on my way. I know it probably doesn't make sense, but it does to me and as long as it works, that's all that matters.

If I offended someone or somehow violated the CoC, then I give up. I already learned that the word "Obtain" is forbidden, I'm wondering if "scrounge" is also.

[raptor]

I won't deny that's a nice system, but is it really a viable solution? The cost is high, and it takes up a lot of space. What are you willing to give up carrying in your BOV to make room to carry such a system?

For purposes of this thread we are helping the gas station owner sell fuel.

Right. And if he had one of these he wouldn't need our help, would he? So the conclusion I make from that logic is that we're supplying the pump, which brings us back to my question... What are you going to give up carrying in your BOV to make room for one of those?

The components are strictly off the shelf items and can be purchased and assembled accordingly.It is a layout that can be replicated. In fact you could make the hose using the existing the gas hoses hooked in series. The station also may have a spare pump and dispenser hoses. The pump is simply a gasoline safe pump. It could be 120 volt if you have an inverter and a 150 amp alternator on your vehicle.

The other thing is if you read my original post you will see where I suggested simply tapping into the main power lead and using a small generator to supply power to the pump system. A single pump uses 120 or 240 volt power and typically no more than 15 amps. The other required circuity uses very little so by judicious use of turning off circuit breakers and limiting power consumption on active circuits you could easy get a gas station pumping from a single pump with a 7kw generator.

Why reinvent the wheel when all that is need is sufficient electricity in the correct voltage and the knowledge to tie into the panel.

[KJ4VOV]

Why reinvent the wheel when all that is need is sufficient electricity in the correct voltage and the knowledge to tie into the panel.

Why reinvent the wheel (or rewire the station) when all you need is a hand pump, some hose, the measuring stick for the tank, and a couple of hose clamps? And personally, I don't normally carry my 7kw generator on the BOV...

[raptor]

Why reinvent the wheel when all that is need is sufficient electricity in the correct voltage and the knowledge to tie into the panel.

Why reinvent the wheel (or rewire the station) when all you need is a hand pump, some hose, the measuring stick for the tank, and a couple of hose clamps? And personally, I don't normally carry my 7kw generator on the BOV...

No but most large vehicles have a 150 amp alternator. 150 amps @ 12volts = 1,800 watts which also happens to be the normal circuit breaker capacity for the 120 volt pump recommended by the manufacturer. (Now granted if there are larger pumps they typically are 240 volt or for industrial pumps they will be 240 volt 3 phase in which case you need a generator) If you have a 2,000 watt inverter which are cheap and common you can get a single pump operational with just a quick wiring job and a vehicle running at an rpm high enough to produce 150 amps of power. An inverter of this size is only about $130 and is small.

http://www.amazon.com/Whistler-Pro-2000 ... B003R7M6CS

That said even a small 2 to 3 kw unit would be adequate. My comment about a 7 kw unit was to get the station operational with a reserve power supply for other needs, not a bare bones approach. Also if you have gas I promise you, the gas station operator will find someone willing to trade a generator for fuel.

[KJ4VOV]

Why reinvent the wheel when all that is need is sufficient electricity in the correct voltage and the knowledge to tie into the panel.

Why reinvent the wheel (or rewire the station) when all you need is a hand pump, some hose, the measuring stick for the tank, and a couple of hose clamps? And personally, I don't normally carry my 7kw generator on the BOV...

No but most large vehicles have a 150 amp alternator. 150 amps @ 12volts = 1,800 watts which also happens to be the normal circuit breaker capacity for the 120 volt pump. If you have a 2,000 watt inverter which are cheap and common you can get a single pump operational with just a quick wiring job and a vehicle running at an rpm high enough to produce 150 amps of power. An inverter of this size is only about $130 and is small.

http://www.amazon.com/Whistler-Pro-2000 ... B003R7M6CS

That said even a small 2 to 3 kw unit would be adequate. My comment about a 7 kw unit was to get the station operational with a reserve power supply for other needs, not a bare bones approach. Also if you have gas I promise you, the gas station operator will find someone willing to trade a generator for fuel.

It depends on the vehicle as to how big the alternator is, and the size of the vehicle isn't always indicative of the size of the alternator. For example, my '99 GMC utility truck, complete with full DOT warning lights, came with a 100 amp (stupid choice on the part of GMC and the shop that added the utility body and lights, but it was what it had until I upgraded it). Also, most inverters produce a "modified sine wave" (AKA - square wave) and there are many things that do not run well, or at all, on anything but a true sine wave. And what if you need 220v, as many pump motors do, or three phase? You're SOL trying to get that from an inverter. It's much, much simpler (and no danger of a short from your patched together wiring job causing an arc and blowing you sky high) to use a simple hand pump.

(BTW - I'm enjoying the back-and-forth brainstorming in this thread as an intellectual exercise. Please don't take any of my replies "personally", they aren't intended that way)