Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

[Theholybull]

I typically answer unexpected knocks on my door in my underware fully erect with a gun in my hand. It takes most people off guard and is also a sure fire way to make sure the Jehovah's witnesses never come back.

[Privateer73]

I have had a similar situation happen to me years ago although it wasnt someone trying to rob me. After divorced my first wife I was financially strapped and had to move into a efficiency apartment in a fairly notorious area of north houston. About 3 am I was woke up by the sound of someone trying to beat the door off the hinges now location of my apartment was second floor with a patio overlooking the parking lot and if you walked out to the corner you could see the stairs up to my door a few feet away.
I jumped up grabbed the phone and my 45 and eased out onto the patio from the cover of the corner I ask what do you want very loud and firm. I immediately got a crash course in getto curse words and could smell the alcohol from there. Apparently this rather large very intoxicated gentleman was looking for his errant wife and had the wrong building. I ask him several times to please stop beating the door and told him repeatedly he had the wrong building. All the time I was trying to calm him I was giving the 911 operator my adress and the situation.
Now 2 factors helped one I had a steel door and frame with a good door brake second he was to drunk to try and get over to the balcony. I managed to keep him engaged in calling her everything but a woman and not beating my door in till the PD arrived and was able to get him calmed down and secured. It took me several min to get the door open to let the officer in and fill out the report. My entire door and frame had to be replaced and the tile in the entry was cracked from the door brake but he got to go sleep it off in the county motel and I was shaken but safe.

[Drethos]

I usually answer the door holding my 12gauge. At first it started out by accident when i was cleaning it and some Jehovah witnesses wondered up to the door. Instead of putting it down i answered it with the gun in hand. Despited the trigger lock being on it the conversation was extremly brief. After that it became a habit, a bad one but still my habit. i dont answer the door with it loaded though, but i usually have a shell or two in my pocket. Be it target load or 00 no one really has been willing to find out :3.
Now i really freaked someone out when i answered the door 2:00am with a crow bar in my hand. Poor guy probably needed new pants after i answered the door with it resting against my shoulder. It only turned out he had a flat, didnt know were he was, and couldnt get cell signal. I gave him a hand and changed his tire in 5mins, guy was to wimpy looking to be a threat. You know the kind of guy who would probably trip if being chased by zombies. He gave me a $20 for not killing him and doing him a favor.

[Famine]

guy was to wimpy looking to be a threat. You know the kind of guy who would probably trip if being chased by zombies. He gave me a $20 for not killing him and doing him a favor.

Classy. Maybe browse the forums a bit and see how other members behave.

[Famine]

Also, I don't answer the door at 4:00AM. Anybody who could possibly need me at that time has various ways to reach me or mine. I'm usually awake getting ready for work. The one time somebody came to my door at 4:00AM it was the police. I knew it was the police because I looked through the kitchen window, and they said "POLICE" when they started knocking.

[TheLastRifleMan]

Let's keep the Jehovah's Witness bashing out of this thread. We do have a rule against that sort of thing.

Consider this a friendly Moderator reminder and warning.

[Blackhawk_tactical]

Utahans like to disregard the door bell and bang on the door. So there is a sign that asks people to ring the doorbell or else. So if no doorbell I answer from the side with my .45 1911

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

[JFlagg]

I would have dialed 911 or had the wife dial 911, but keep all the lights off and stayed quiet. My reasoning is this, if I ask who it is, they know someone is there and may leave. If I stay quiet and they think no one is home, they take their time if they are B&Eing, hopefully the cops arrive in time to catch them in the act... If not, I am in the room waiting if/when the door opens... Then I have the element of suprise on my side as they catch sight of either the barrel of my 12 guage or the barrel of my XD40. Thats one thing I learned in Iraq, the element of suprise is your best weapon...

I live in South STL in a pretty shady 'hood and this situation it unfortunately too common. Personally, I agree with Ted Nugent and his " I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders" ideology. The way I look at it, even if unarmed, an intruder becomes a threat the second they enter my house. Because, by then I am the last line of defense for my 3 yo. old daughter and pregnant wife(and 4 dogs who might make a lot of noise, but I highly doubt they would get physical with an intruder, lol). In StL, no jury would convict me for protecting my family inside my house.

[Quietus]

Pretty much every post in this thread has me thinking WTF?
We are talking some serious paranoia here.

There are literally millions of reasons that could explain the situation. Most of them perfectly innocent. But the standard response is to grab a gun and prepare to kill people.

I'm in no way saying that you should simply assume that nothing bad could ever happen, or fail to take basic precautions, but there has to be a line.

Not to mention the very simple fact that the consensus of multiple, peer reviewed studies have shown that in the event of a home invasion, you are 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured if you try to protect yourself with a firearm.

[arizzo24]

Pretty much every post in this thread has me thinking WTF?
We are talking some serious paranoia here.

There are literally millions of reasons that could explain the situation. Most of them perfectly innocent. But the standard response is to grab a gun and prepare to kill people.

I'm in no way saying that you should simply assume that nothing bad could ever happen, or fail to take basic precautions, but there has to be a line.

Not to mention the very simple fact that the consensus of multiple, peer reviewed studies have shown that in the event of a home invasion, you are 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured if you try to protect yourself with a firearm.

While I agree that answering every knock at the door armed might be a little much, I have to ask. What is your advice for a proper way to respond to a "home invasion". I am skeptical of all studies in relation to guns whatever position they support. I am just asking, if someone breaks in to your home in the middle of the night is your plan to comply and leave your family's fate up to the burglars good nature. Not trying to start a war, I seriously want to know your answer.

[the_alias]

Pretty much every post in this thread has me thinking WTF?
We are talking some serious paranoia here.

There are literally millions of reasons that could explain the situation. Most of them perfectly innocent. But the standard response is to grab a gun and prepare to kill people.

I'm in no way saying that you should simply assume that nothing bad could ever happen, or fail to take basic precautions, but there has to be a line.

Not to mention the very simple fact that the consensus of multiple, peer reviewed studies have shown that in the event of a home invasion, you are 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured if you try to protect yourself with a firearm.

I recall reading something on another forum by a UK bobby who arrested a guy for home invasion.

The guys tactic was to simply pick up a rock - ring doorbell and smash whoever happened to open the door in the face and barge in.
Violence, surprise and he took advantage of people's politeness.

I also think you are having trouble differentiating between being prepared and actively trying to kill someone. Having something to hand to protect yourself when you open the door to a stranger is simply prudent - in the US it is likely going to be a firearm as that is the most effective weapon people have access to in a lot of cases.

You speak of 'paranoia' but in light of the facts of home invasion it isn't 'paranoid' to be prepared to respond to violence when answering the door at 4am.

What is this arbitrary line you want to impose on people exactly?

[Kutter_0311]

Pretty much every post in this thread has me thinking WTF?
We are talking some serious paranoia here.

There are literally millions of reasons that could explain the situation. Most of them perfectly innocent. But the standard response is to grab a gun and prepare to kill people.

I'm in no way saying that you should simply assume that nothing bad could ever happen, or fail to take basic precautions, but there has to be a line.

Not to mention the very simple fact that the consensus of multiple, peer reviewed studies have shown that in the event of a home invasion, you are 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured if you try to protect yourself with a firearm.

And when you enter into a knife fight, you are going to get cut.

Personally, "repel the enemy assault through fire and close combat" is still high on my list of priorities.

[squinty]

Pretty much every post in this thread has me thinking WTF?
We are talking some serious paranoia here.

There are literally millions of reasons that could explain the situation. Most of them perfectly innocent. But the standard response is to grab a gun and prepare to kill people.

I'm in no way saying that you should simply assume that nothing bad could ever happen, or fail to take basic precautions, but there has to be a line.

Not to mention the very simple fact that the consensus of multiple, peer reviewed studies have shown that in the event of a home invasion, you are 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured if you try to protect yourself with a firearm.

I think a common mistake - one that I've made - when there is a weapon handy, is opening the door in the first place and removing a useful barrier between you and and potential danger. I attribute some of that to a false sense of security, or relying on a weapon to the exclusion of simpler safety precautions.

In every case where I've picked up a weapon, it was because there was a credible reason to believe I might be in danger (there's a difference between a knock, and someone pounding the door off the hinges while bellowing) and I was preparing to defend myself if need be, not to kill anyone. When further investigation revealed there was no threat, or less than I'd feared, the weapon got put away. Merely having a weapon isn't paranoid. Perceiving a threat when there is little reason to believe a threat exists is paranoid. No one ever says "Why do you have a fire extinguisher in your kitchen? Are you paranoid about the house catching fire? You're way more likely to burn to death if you try to contain the fire!"

Cite some of these peer reviewed studies, please. They sound interesting.

[squinty]

Pretty much every post in this thread has me thinking WTF?
We are talking some serious paranoia here.

There are literally millions of reasons that could explain the situation. Most of them perfectly innocent. But the standard response is to grab a gun and prepare to kill people.

I'm in no way saying that you should simply assume that nothing bad could ever happen, or fail to take basic precautions, but there has to be a line.

Not to mention the very simple fact that the consensus of multiple, peer reviewed studies have shown that in the event of a home invasion, you are 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured if you try to protect yourself with a firearm.

While I agree that answering every knock at the door armed might be a little much, I have to ask. What is your advice for a proper way to respond to a "home invasion". I am skeptical of all studies in relation to guns whatever position they support. I am just asking, if someone breaks in to your home in the middle of the night is your plan to comply and leave your family's fate up to the burglars good nature. Not trying to start a war, I seriously want to know your answer.

Again, I think a mistake I've made in the past was answering the door in the first place when I thought the person outside might be dangerous enough to warrant the use of a firearm. Part of my prep fail was that I hadn't yet installed a peephole on my door, and couldn't easily identify the person outside without cracking the door open first. If you think you need the gun, leave the door barred.

And while I certainly would use a gun to the best of my ability to defend myself - it isn't the only option, or the only tactic I might employ. Maintaining a barrier between me and the danger while calling the police, use the gun if the barrier fails and police aren't there yet when it happens. Escape is another option - someone comes in, we go out by another means. Use the gun if pursued.

[Quietus]

I also think you are having trouble differentiating between being prepared and actively trying to kill someone.

Nope. In this case there is absolutely no difference.
Anyone who is even halfway mature enough to handle a weapon, knows that you NEVER pull any lethal weapon on anyone or anything you do not intend to kill.
So you are sitting in your house, gun in hand, waiting for someone who you intend to kill to walk through the door. At this point (judging by the posts) you have done nothing to ascertain the identity of the person in question or their reason for being there. Very few posts in this thread even indicated any will or intention to handle the situation in a peaceful manner.

Something as simple as asking "who is there", through the closed door, without being anywhere near it, will tell you a great deal. The vast majority of residential criminals are opportunists. They will go for the easiest target. So by simply alerting them to the fact that someone is in the house and aware of their presence, will turn most away.
If you get an answer, it should be fairly simple to tell if they are telling the truth. There could have been an accident, but if the person did not go straight to the door and knock, ring the bell or call out, chances of that being the case are slim. at 4AM, it can't be a delivery or anyone who is there in any official capacity, other than police or emergency personal who will have a simple and clear approach.

If they do not respond or identify themselves (be sure you are heard), then you have reason to suspect criminal motive.

There are naturally many other ways to go about this, but I don't really feel the urge to write a 100 page essay right now.

Another problem with going straight to the gun as your first response, is that you could end up killing someone who really don't want to kill. A stray bullet could go anywhere, and most houses are not exactly bulletproof. especially not windows.
Or it could simply be a misunderstanding.

A few years ago, I had a experience that started much like the OP's. also in the middle of the night.
But rather than leave, the person outside simply walked straight into my house. It turned out to be a 87 year old senile lady. I was told that she used to live in that area and apparently she was confused and thought this was her house (her daughter who took care of her lived not far from there).

Had I done what many of you would do, I could potentially have killed her. Would I like to have that on my conscience? Hell no.
I know what you are thinking. "I would have seen right away that she was no threat, and nothing would have happened". Yeah, fucking, right.
Even the best trained combat vets, can tell you that in the heat of the moment (especially when you are freaking yourself out, expecting the worst), things can happen. You can very well simply react before even knowing what happened.
If you think this doesn't apply to you, you are nowhere near mature enough to be anywhere near a firearm.

I have nothing against guns. In fact, I very much enjoy them. But I do have a very big problem with the irresponsible and senseless way people are using them.
Lethal force should always be considered the absolute last resort. And only as a life saving measure. Your fucking TV is not worth taking a life over. Not even a criminals life. If you think it is, you need help.
There are many non violent approaches that in most situations can stop a potential crime before it even starts.

[the_alias]

Intent to use a weapon and intent to kill are two different things.
If I have to enter into physical violence my intent is to remove the threat and protect myself. It is not to kill - that might happen in the course of defending myself and removing the threat but it is not the same as a malicious pyschopath who has a specific intent to kill.

ETA - yes though anyone who draws a lethal weapon should be prepared to use it - otherwise they shouldn't own it.

[squinty]

I also think you are having trouble differentiating between being prepared and actively trying to kill someone.

Nope. In this case there is absolutely no difference.
Anyone who is even halfway mature enough to handle a weapon, knows that you NEVER pull any lethal weapon on anyone or anything you do not intend to kill.
So you are sitting in your house, gun in hand, waiting for someone who you intend to kill to walk through the door. At this point (judging by the posts) you have done nothing to ascertain the identity of the person in question or their reason for being there. Very few posts in this thread even indicated any will or intention to handle the situation in a peaceful manner.

Actually, several posters talked about identifying the person, or trying to ascertain what was going on. One poster - one of the most paranoid and least classy of the bunch - talked about putting his weapon down and going outside to aid the person knocking on his door.
I certainly did ID the person on my porch, and discard the weapon when it proved unnecessary. Having a weapon does not equal intent to kill. Having a weapon at hand is not the same as "pulling" a weapon on somebody. In the case of a person outside, trying to get in, the decision to shoot/not shoot can't be made until you ID the person. That ID might never happen if they don't come in (Good!), unless you open the door to them or stand in a window or otherwise expose yourself. (Calling out might not be the worst idea.) You make it sound like we lay in ambush in our homes.

Something as simple as asking "who is there", through the closed door, without being anywhere near it, will tell you a great deal. The vast majority of residential criminals are opportunists. They will go for the easiest target. So by simply alerting them to the fact that someone is in the house and aware of their presence, will turn most away.
If you get an answer, it should be fairly simple to tell if they are telling the truth. There could have been an accident, but if the person did not go straight to the door and knock, ring the bell or call out, chances of that being the case are slim. at 4AM, it can't be a delivery or anyone who is there in any official capacity, other than police or emergency personal who will have a simple and clear approach.

If they do not respond or identify themselves (be sure you are heard), then you have reason to suspect criminal motive.

There are naturally many other ways to go about this, but I don't really feel the urge to write a 100 page essay right now.

Another problem with going straight to the gun as your first response, is that you could end up killing someone who really don't want to kill. A stray bullet could go anywhere, and most houses are not exactly bulletproof. especially not windows.
Or it could simply be a misunderstanding.

A few years ago, I had a experience that started much like the OP's. also in the middle of the night.
But rather than leave, the person outside simply walked straight into my house. It turned out to be a 87 year old senile lady. I was told that she used to live in that area and apparently she was confused and thought this was her house (her daughter who took care of her lived not far from there).

Had I done what many of you would do, I could potentially have killed her. Would I like to have that on my conscience? Hell no.
I know what you are thinking. "I would have seen right away that she was no threat, and nothing would have happened". Yeah, fucking, right.
Even the best trained combat vets, can tell you that in the heat of the moment (especially when you are freaking yourself out, expecting the worst), things can happen. You can very well simply react before even knowing what happened.
If you think this doesn't apply to you, you are nowhere near mature enough to be anywhere near a firearm.

So, are you saying that you'd have shot the old lady if you'd had a firearm? I wouldn't have. Certainly there are tragedies where people fail to identify their targets and shoot in a panic. That's a training and mindset issue. But there are issues with a lot of tools - there are accidents with stoves, power saws and automobiles, that could be prevented by training, awareness or maturity on the part of the operators.
There is a difference between carrying a gun in case of attack, and blindly or erratically firing it at an unidentified target. In none of these posts did anyone fire a weapon, or shoot anyone, let alone shoot a harmless or innocent person.

I have nothing against guns. In fact, I very much enjoy them. But I do have a very big problem with the irresponsible and senseless way people are using them.
Lethal force should always be considered the absolute last resort. And only as a life saving measure. Your fucking TV is not worth taking a life over. Not even a criminals life. If you think it is, you need help.

I agree that violent resistance should be a last resort - there are other lines of defense besides firearms - but nobody here has talked about committing murder to prevent the theft of a television, as you've implied. A home invasion is not the same thing as a burglary. And many many homeowners are injured by burglars who, once they encounter the homeowner, use violence against the homeowner to escape or eliminate a witness. This happens more often in gun prohibitive societies. Someone breaking into an occupied home is dangerous, and the homeowner is right to be cautious about his safety when a stranger enters the house.

There are many non violent approaches that in most situations can stop a potential crime before it even starts.

Like locking your door? Nobody will ever just walk into my house, the way the old lady walked into yours. They'll be confronted with at least one lock to defeat - and if they set about defeating that lock, that tells me volumes about their intentions. Doesn't mean I'll shoot them, even if they are up to no good, because the gun I have is a last resort - but I'll damn well have it.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm

[bigmattdaddywack]

this is probably symptoms of borderline paranoia, but when i hear something not right downstairs at night when I'm alone, I got check it out with my pillow-side gun (right now that's a Uberti SAA .44 Mag) the pillowside gun is always ready for use.

That sounds perfectly normal around here.

[bigmattdaddywack]

Pretty much every post in this thread has me thinking WTF?
We are talking some serious paranoia here.

There are literally millions of reasons that could explain the situation. Most of them perfectly innocent. But the standard response is to grab a gun and prepare to kill people.

I'm in no way saying that you should simply assume that nothing bad could ever happen, or fail to take basic precautions, but there has to be a line.

Not to mention the very simple fact that the consensus of multiple, peer reviewed studies have shown that in the event of a home invasion, you are 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured if you try to protect yourself with a firearm.

You dont live in America, let alone in STL.
I dont buy those articles. They are most likely just propaganda.

[bigmattdaddywack]

Pretty much every post in this thread has me thinking WTF?
We are talking some serious paranoia here.

There are literally millions of reasons that could explain the situation. Most of them perfectly innocent. But the standard response is to grab a gun and prepare to kill people.

I'm in no way saying that you should simply assume that nothing bad could ever happen, or fail to take basic precautions, but there has to be a line.

Not to mention the very simple fact that the consensus of multiple, peer reviewed studies have shown that in the event of a home invasion, you are 4 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured if you try to protect yourself with a firearm.

You dont live in America, let alone in STL.
I dont buy those articles. They are most likely just propaganda.
The passive approach we have been taught regarding aggressive bad guys is a lesson that should be considered a crime. I am not going to lay in the fetal position hoping for mercy and just let home invaders rampage through my home. If I had a wife and a family I most certainly would not be passive.
Answering the door armed at 2 am in a shady neighborhood or anywhere is not paranoia, just being prepared.

[Quietus]

So, are you saying that you'd have shot the old lady if you'd had a firearm?

No.
I did have more than one firearm in the house (and still do), but I don't automatically pick up a gun if someone is at the door. Regardless of the time of day.

And you can talk as much as you want about training and mindset. It makes no difference.
Untill you are actually IN the situation, you can't possibly know how you will react. I have seen highly trained soldiers freeze, the first time they actually had to pull the trigger with a human being in front of them. And I have seen the most calm, level headed and experienced people panic and do stupid things in situations that could have been easily controlled.
No amount of training can ever prepare you completely for the real thing. Training is necessary and can help you do the right thing. But until you have real world experience, you do not know how you will react. If you believe otherwise, you are naive to a point were it could prove dangerous.

A home invasion is not the same thing as a burglary.

Actually, that is technically not completely correct. The term "home invasion" is quite new and there has never been a clear, legal definition of it.
There are general "agreed upon" definitions, but the the large number of variables and the fact that parts of the crime bares strong resemblance to other, defined crimes, means that it is very difficult to correctly define the term in a legally acceptable way.
It is more than anything, a media term.

And no. My door is not always locked.

I'm often awake at night, because I prefer to do my computer work at that time of day. the lights are on and I can see my front door (and outside it) from from my workstation. And I live right next to a police station, in a quiet area.

So I would say it is a very small and calculated risk.

I dont buy those articles. They are most likely just propaganda.

I would agree with you if we were indeed talking about random articles on the internet.
But when we move into scientific studies that are peer reviewed, blind dismissal is just silly.

[Kutter_0311]

Quietus, I'm glad you live in a peaceful area, and conveniently close to a police station. Excellent choice of positions, sir!

That said, most of us do not have those locational perks.

One of my bosses once said, "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

This may be a sad commentary on the state of the world, but freedom requires the willingness to fight, and kill if needed, any time, any where. Looking back at history, this has been true for vastly greater spans of history than it has been false. The wolves always seek out the targets of opportunity, it is there nature, and always has been.

[Quietus]

Quietus, I'm glad you live in a peaceful area, and conveniently close to a police station. Excellent choice of positions, sir!

That said, most of us do not have those locational perks.

One of my bosses once said, "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

This may be a sad commentary on the state of the world, but freedom requires the willingness to fight, and kill if needed, any time, any where. Looking back at history, this has been true for vastly greater spans of history than it has been false. The wolves always seek out the targets of opportunity, it is there nature, and always has been.

I don't particularly disagree with any of this.
My point is simply that it is irresponsible and completely off the deep end when people advocate going straight to lethal force. And I will always maintain that picking up a firearm, is deciding to use lethal force. If people didn't want to use lethal force, they would be more likely to go for a taser or a canister of bear spray. Hell, Take one of each, you have two hands after all.
Both methods work pretty damn well.

[crypto]

Let's keep the Jehovah's Witness bashing out of this thread. We do have a rule against that sort of thing.

Consider this a friendly Moderator reminder and warning.

Anyone who interrupts my slumber at 7:30am on a weekend dressed in a shirt and tie trying to distribute propaganda gets the same treatment from me, its not denomination-specific.