Sarajevo Survival Tools Virtual Museum

[Blackdog]

I learned quite a lot on how to get by in a city with no running water, electricity or heating during the few years that I traveled to and lived in Sarajevo. I have to stress that the local population had to learn or relearn this stuff during a real jam and I was there only as a "visiter" and took full free advantage of the skills they had pay a high price to learn, thank you from the bottom of my heart Sarajevo for all the lessons, hospitality and for hooking me up with the most bad ass survivor dog I have ever know, the original Black Dog (RIP my good friend). Anyway I was poking around looking for something else and ran into this, a Sarajevo Survival Tools Virtual Museum. A little clunky, a definite viewpoint and not for the faint of heart but very cool all the same if you give it a little time.

Sarajevo Survival Tools Virtual Museum

http://h.etf.unsa.ba/srp/vmuzej/index-e-1.htm

[TacAir]

Worth the visit, I would suggest going right to the site map.

[rsnurkle]

Duplicate, actually, (viewtopic.php?f=93&t=77084) but thank you for bringing up again.

Since I can only imagine so much from looking at the tools and their descriptions, I'm super curious about your observations from Sarajevo, blackdog, about "how to get by in a city with no running water, electricity or heating." I think that would be a great thread for this subforum, since knowing how to deal when the normal systems of civilization break down and/or dissappear is kind of a core curiosity of ZS.

ETA: For anyone looking at the site, a list of the tools discussed is on this page.

[ODA 226]

This brings back a lot of memories!

[Blackdog]

Duplicate, actually, (http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 93&t=77084) but thank you for bringing up again.

Since I can only imagine so much from looking at the tools and their descriptions, I'm super curious about your observations from Sarajevo, blackdog, about "how to get by in a city with no running water, electricity or heating." I think that would be a great thread for this subforum, since knowing how to deal when the normal systems of civilization break down and/or dissappear is kind of a core curiosity of ZS.

ETA: For anyone looking at the site, a list of the tools discussed is on this page.

Duplicate, yikes. Sorry I am the biggest meat head I know. Being a stone cold hick I don't cruise the urban forum too much.

When I first started traveling to Bosnia I was lucky to be able to stay in the Holiday Inn. My first room had a hole in the wall and the lighting fixture was hanging off the ceiling. Meals were available but it was kind of "hey what's for dinner tonight" with a little of," I wonder what this stuff is" thrown in, picky eating was a no go. A room at the inn was I believe $200 (or maybe $300, kind of foggy now) a night cash only. Everything was cash only. This entailed muleing large quantities of cold hard cash to get anything done. The logistics of getting to and from was pretty iffy so I moved to Sarajevo and then made an occasional run to Croatia for $$ resupply. My good finance guy was very cool and always seemed good to go with getting a packet of hand written receipts for such things as fire wood (for what it is worth, I knew several people who burned thru their life savings just to have some fire wood) and stove. Just being able to do this put my life style at a much higher level than my neighbors.

I know that there is not a lot of high speed stuff in this site but to boil it all down, high speed stuff doesn't get you thru the winter really. I managed to get one of the homemade stoves and I have to say that the guys who could score the materials and had the skills to knock a nice stove together were stars of the neighborhood. Think you can heat your whole house?, forget about it. Heat one room during working hours. Think about which room to live out off, the sun will play a big part in this. Your summer room most likely won't be you winter room. The house I lived in was never designed to have AC. I don't wish to think about doing this in a suburban North American house never designed not to have AC/central heating with no thought given to the direction of the sun. Ask your self how many of your neighbors have the ability to heat even one room long term (in the case of Sarajevo, the siege lasted for over a 1000 days) with out killing themselves? A nice fairly efficient wood stove along with the ability to make a chimney is a ++.

I doubt there was one unbroken window (and not a whole lot of unbroken walls) in the city when I arrived. Plastic sheeting ++. Like 550 cord, you really can't have too much of it, same could be said for real live water storage and transport containers. We always see the nice plastic water bottles in the tough luck zones, this is not always so. You might have the tools to haul water to you house from a central water source, but think about how many of your neighbors don't have a transport container. Now throw in the fact that this may have to be done on foot.

Sometime later on I got some large water storage tanks (don't forget your bleach) and this made a big difference but early on you would leave the tap on with a container under it. The sound of running water was a good reason to get up at any hour and do something. I spent a winter in Bosnia (3 winters actually, but the first one was when the lessons flowed fast and furious) with no running water or heat and later a year in Kosovo with about a hour of electricity and about a hour of running water a day (never it seems at the same time), no schedule, at some point you would hear gurgling or the lights would come on and it was time to do something.

A couple of things that made life good were a nice sleeping bag and a cook stove that burns just about anything. My older school mult-fuel stove worked great, you can keep your canister stoves because the canisters are of limited use unless you have a zillion canisters for them. A week for a canister stove OK, a year not OK. Burning gasoline, diesel, kerosene or what ever is good, not breaking is good and simple is good. My wife and I would take turns every couple of days takings "showers". This entailed catching enough water, heating it on the camp stove and running it in to the lucky clean person of the day. Think about a garden watering can full of warm water. Clothing still had to get washed, in the bathtub and with cold water and basic sanitation had to be taken care of (you know what I mean, flushing the toilet with your water stash after every tinkle was a no-go). My water filter is not plastic, again long term use makes simple, cleanable and not easily breakable a double plus. English language books were gold.

Figure 4 deadfalls work just fine for cleaning the rodents out of the pantry, later I learned to knock together a Paiute deadfall which works even better for little animals I think. Never ate the little buggers, but nice to know. Back to food, picky eaters get over it. Cooking from what is at hand is important as is a good sense of humor. One Christmas I managed to score a canned duck and some potatoes, man that duck sucked and my wife and I still get a laugh from the 3 course CF that turned into. Can't cook from scratch? learn quick. Cooking oil is something we don't think about really, but there is a reason that you always see this stuff as a part of aid packages.

What I really could have used was a small solar panel to charge a radio. These days I have 2 packable panels for just this purpose. LED headlamps if they existed would have rocked. Technology is great in limited ways.

All and all I had it easy but still tried to soak up what there was to soak up. Urban crash, man they suck and that is a fact. We had quite a lot of interaction with our neighbors. One of the first was when my wife went into out "back yard" to clear junk and the local ladies had a cow. "Get out of there nit wit". Turns out there was a abandoned fighting position up in the weeds and the local fear was of UXO. I never saw any in our yard but saw just about plenty all over. Other interaction was my wife relearning how to cook and a brisk trade of what ever I muled back for useful things. Lots of other interaction that I am afraid I don't really want to talk about that really put us in good with our neighbors. Needless to say, with out the good will and cooperation of the neighborhood life would have been much different. All this time was pre-digital and all the photos are in storage. To tell you the truth we really didn't take a whole lot of pics at the time. Just didn't seem that important.

I developed habits that still hang on today. Going to bed early was one of them. Candles, chill and no TV is a great reason to jump in the sack early. Another habit is that there is not a whole lot of food stuff that passes thru this house uneaten. Something turns out not quite right, it gets eaten, meals are made with very little waste and tossing leftovers in the bin just doesn't happen. We still have no AC, still have water tanks with pump but now living fat with a diesel generator.

[Blackdog]

Sorry my high speed internet skills choked and double posted.

[the_alias]

Sure are some interesting examples of what people crafted during the war there:

See more here
http://h.etf.unsa.ba/srp/list.htm



Article http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/ ... osnian-war[/quote]

This is my super secret self merge of a post

Great stuff Blackdog! One of the best posts I've read in a long long time.

[Shinhao]

Blackdog,

Love to hear more about your experiences in Sarajevo. What were you doing there anyways?

It sounds like a small solar-panel setup for charging up radios, lights, and electronics would be very valuable. Do you have any recommendations in that area? What kind of security concerns are there for solar panels?

[Blackdog]

Blackdog,

Love to hear more about your experiences in Sarajevo. What were you doing there anyways?

It sounds like a small solar-panel setup for charging up radios, lights, and electronics would be very valuable. Do you have any recommendations in that area? What kind of security concerns are there for solar panels?

Well what I am running right now is a Sunlinq 6.5 which is easily man packed, a Sunlinq 25 which is less easy to man pack but still OK and a battery charger that works off of panels, a Powerfilm RA-3b 12 volt tickle charger. My radios take a direct input via the cig lighter attachment.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mj1015/3788838462/

If I was to run this in a urban area I would stash it someplace out of sight, in any area things not bolted down and even some that are can walk off. Again something like this would have been very nice back in the day.

In a nut shell when I left the military I found my self (like a lot of people) with a skill set that was of limited value in the real world and no urge to plant roots. I was lucky enough to get hired by a small company with balls who were coming to the conclusion that having a couple of joes that didn't mind sleeping rough and wouldn't cry if they missed a meal might be a good thing. So anyway I got a gig running stuff into Bosnia piece meal which later developed into a bigger project. It was a sad day when the owner sold out some years later, never the same since. Man didn't we have some fun roaming the old east block with a belly bag of cash, credit card????? You have to be joking. The guy who worked for the old company and is now here with me worked out of Romania for a couple of years and can't look at a turnup with out gagging , to hear him talk that was all he ate for most of the time there.

What I ran was a diesel chevy 4x4 with a Inmarsat-C under the seat. I also had a C in the house running off of a car battery. Not fast, no voice, but never fail. The first year anyway, everyday I left the house was foraging day. Ah, I see someone selling fuel, get some. Fuel and water cans lived in the back of that thing. A store of that time might have a quart of oil, a can of peas and a couple of onions, again snag it and show off my bounty when I got home. I did once run into Christiane Amanpour but she didn't find me at all interesting, can't figure that one out???

For entertainment we would often sit at the back window (complete with shrapnel holes) and watch the local wild life. Day after day of watching the local birds and nice fat rat that worked the area. Really this was cooler than one would expect. I think we become more tuned in to the world once we unplug. A lot of the local wild life were dogs, lots of them got turned out to make their own way. Pack interaction became a constant conversation subject. There was a very tough cookie female dog that lived in our back 40 who had pups. We had watched this girl make her way in a tough world for quite a while. When she gave birth we could see the pups from the window and when we had made our choice of the little buggers and they had to started to be a little independent we snagged one. He became my constant companion and a tough cookie in his own right. It was a hassle to feed him but well worth it just from the security aspect. We had one break in prior to this but none after. When that dog died I cried like a little girl, never before or since like that.

I spoke about trading, but really it was more like exchanging gifts. Here is a bottle of Aspirin, hope it helps. Later a loaf of bread would arrive. Strange thing is I don't remember a single begger off the top of my head.

I lived in Sarajevo but later worked most of the country, the roads at the time were not good so it might take a while to get from A to Z, the weather didn't always cooperate so many nights were spent rolled up on the back seat of the truck. Something a bit eerie sometimes about rolling thru mile after mile of abandoned, shot up, burned out homes and villages. The fog would get so bad I would have to get out of the truck and stand 1 foot away from a sign with a flashlight to read it even in the city, no street lights at the time thats for sure. Once in a while I might duck into a hotel. Once I got caught in a good blizzard and spent the night in a unheated hotel out in the sticks listening to the guys in the next room singing songs all night long. The Inmarsat was important if for no other reason than reporting back to the "boss" that I wasn't going to make back that night.

The first trips I made were a bit tricky and the first year I lived there full time was a learning experience but the last couple of years living there were OK and things took on a more normal aspect. Bottom line, my hat goes off for the folk that rode that show out, from what I saw most of them did it in a dignified manner and did their best to be their brothers keeper. I would hope that if something like that happened in a city that I lived in the folk would do nearly as well in a world gone mad.

To finish off I just want to stress that my experiences were not the experiences of the people who lived there, my life was fat and easy but hopefully I came away with something useful. I guess the take away is simple things that work help out a lot more than HSLD stuff and getting everthing that needs doing done by yourself just isn't happening.

[Shinhao]

Thanks Blackdog.

I've been thinking about getting a modest solar installation for my house, just two panels, for a total of 120W or so. but I'm torn on whether it's a good idea. It seems like putting up solar panels is just broadcasting that you're at least slightly better off than everyone else. And you can't exactly camo solar panels, they have to see the sun.

My current plan is to create a collapsible-PVC pipe assembly that I could set-up in my backyard, at ground level, that I could put-up and tear-down as the situation dictates. It's more silent and more sustainable than a generator. Thoughts?

[Sckitzo]

Blackdog, those were great write up, thanks for sharing that man, that really is interesting as hell, if you think of anything else jot it down, or hell make it it's own thread, I think folks here could learn a lot, or at least appreciate what we have a hell of a lot more.

[mk_ultra]

Great post Blackdog .

As a city dweller I am always looking at solutions to these unique problems .

[ODA 226]

What I ran was a diesel chevy 4x4 with a Inmarsat-C under the seat. I also had a C in the house running off of a car battery. Not fast, no voice, but never fail.
We ran Inmarsat-C's in our Land Rovers also.

Ah, I see someone selling fuel, get some. Fuel and water cans lived in the back of that thing.
What was your preferred color of gas...Red, Blue or Orange? LOL!

I did once run into Christiane Amanpour but she didn't find me at all interesting, can't figure that one out???
I can tell you why! She was having a mad affair with a Danish CIVPOL friend of mine! (Really!)

[Blackdog]

What I ran was a diesel chevy 4x4 with a Inmarsat-C under the seat. I also had a C in the house running off of a car battery. Not fast, no voice, but never fail.
We ran Inmarsat-C's in our Land Rovers also.

I loved the C. Before the internet and when cell phones didn't work the C rocked. Just loved that there was a per character charge as this kept the chit chat to a minumum. msg: In route to XYZ all OK. Reply msg: OK.

Got stopped at a check point where the nit wit thought the antenna was a mine stuck to the roof of my truck.

Ah, I see someone selling fuel, get some. Fuel and water cans lived in the back of that thing.
What was your preferred color of gas...Red, Blue or Orange? LOL!

Totally forgot about that.


I did once run into Christiane Amanpour but she didn't find me at all interesting, can't figure that one out???
I can tell you why! She was having a mad affair with a Danish CIVPOL friend of mine! (Really!)


That explains it. A hot Dane, I guess it wasn't the stubble, mud up to my knees and lack of regular bathing.

Thinking back a lot of the day to day is fuzzy. Mud, snow and slowly getting things done. I mentioned something about this to my wife and what she mostly remembers is how bad the roads and weather were and the worry that went with it when I rolled out. Not having "stuff" just doesn't seem to have been an issue as most of what I remember off the top of my head is regular domestic life. Learning to cook was a bit of problem as the food items that were there were from all over the world and the lables and directions could be in any one of a hundred languages.

Work wise, I needed a $1.00 widget real bad. A new guy in the rear told me to get one from Radio Shack. --- Dude drop the frigging muffin, get in you airconditioned car, drive to radio shack, frigging buy it and put it on the next mule train or I am going to twist your fat frigging head off.

Having limited choices didn't seem bad but what killed me was not being able to walk around in the hills. Just too much junk scattering the countryside.

I worked in Kosovo during their trouble and that was kind of dismal but when my wife and I moved there full time after the NATO thing, life just seemed harder than Bosnia. Part of that was we were stuck in an Apartment instead of a house that you could do more with. Should have been easier having done the no water, heat and electricity drill before but it wasn't.

One of the things that stuck was the total lack of color and light (especially during the winter). When after a couple of years I returned on leave the colors and lights kind put me in a daze. Took total effort not to drive over curbs, do goofy turns across mediums and park on sidewalks.

I remember standing dumb struck for a long time in the shampoo section of a Walmart wondering just what shampoo I would pick. Too many choices. I remember picking up a couple of suitcases at the goodwill or what have you and stuffing them full of dry staples, aspirin and cold/flu meds. Also remember just how tasteless the veggies were in the USA even after veggies being somewhat of a rarity for a while.

[Blackdog]

Thanks Blackdog.

I've been thinking about getting a modest solar installation for my house, just two panels, for a total of 120W or so. but I'm torn on whether it's a good idea. It seems like putting up solar panels is just broadcasting that you're at least slightly better off than everyone else. And you can't exactly camo solar panels, they have to see the sun.

My current plan is to create a collapsible-PVC pipe assembly that I could set-up in my backyard, at ground level, that I could put-up and tear-down as the situation dictates. It's more silent and more sustainable than a generator. Thoughts?

I am a bit of a pessimist sometimes and this is one of them. Most of the time most people are just cruising thru life, maybe someone might notice that you didn't mow your lawn or some such. Tighten down the ratchet of long term tough times and everybody starts noticing everything. I did some training during which if someone ate oh lets say a piece of chocolate you could smell it on them just like they drank a quart of gin, this is what noticing is during tough times. Unless you can secure the panels and by secure I mean more than a bike chain I would count them as history if they are left out side. Not saying it isn't a good idea just saying that lawn mowers, bikes, garden hoses all dissapear on a regular basis from under peoples noses now. Sitting and watching them is not a good option because if it comes to really needing them the situation might dictate that you will have more than plenty to do other than watch them.

Having lights at night during a couple of day power outage might get people saying "oh that lucky dog". Lights on at night after a longer period will probably get a different reaction at least from some folk. If nothing else some might think that light at night could be put to use in say a clinic or the like.

Possible solution although not a great one is to put them in you south facing window on or next to your winter heat trap area inside the house. Not a great solution because they won't be able to catch sun except for limited times. Most likely all you are going to be able to do is charge small batts and gizmos or keep a lightly used car batt topped off. Might give this a try as a test if you have the chance. This is why I like ths smaller flex panels, you can stick them just about anywhere in the house and move or stash them them at will.

All this is just my humble opinion by the way.

[Blackdog]

Thanks Blackdog.

I've been thinking about getting a modest solar installation for my house, just two panels, for a total of 120W or so. but I'm torn on whether it's a good idea. It seems like putting up solar panels is just broadcasting that you're at least slightly better off than everyone else. And you can't exactly camo solar panels, they have to see the sun.

My current plan is to create a collapsible-PVC pipe assembly that I could set-up in my backyard, at ground level, that I could put-up and tear-down as the situation dictates. It's more silent and more sustainable than a generator. Thoughts?

Back from workin for the man to add:

Having the panels might allow for community or clan use where you keep tribal batteries topped off in exchange for panel security.

As a side note: One of things I saw fairly often in Liberia was a small business consisting of a guy with a car battery topping off cell phone batteries. I don't know how the car battery was kept topped, but a solar panel would do the trick.

[Shinhao]

Thanks for the feedback Blackdog.

As someone wise on ZS once said, a little bit of electricity is a lot better than having no electricity, which was the inspiration for this. Obviously I wouldn't be doing anything stupid like running lights or TV that would be visible from the outside - at most, I'd be using a bit of light in the basement after blocking the windows with blackout curtains.

My main motivation for getting a ~120W set up is to have enough to run a small chest freezer (they actually don't take much power), with spare power to run a UV water filter, and to charge up radio and other battery-powered equipment. I don't need to tell you how useful it is to have a bit of refrigeration. And as Raptor says, cold cokes make the world go round. The system would be backed by about ~200Ah@12V of batteries. Haven't decided on the exact numbers yet.

I'm thinking of using the solar panel set-up on my back patio (backyard faces south), just for normal use. I'd put it away whenever I have guests. I don't think the neighbors would notice, because it won't be visible from their properties, unless they climb a tree. The panels would be shaded in the morning and evening, but for the prime hours of 9AM to 3PM, I'd be getting full sun. In a emergency bug-in situation, I'd put away the panels just-in-case, and run on batteries for a few days until I have a better idea of the threat level.

As for physical security, I'll use steel pipe rather than PVC, and I'll dig and set concrete pilings for the pipes to lock into. That part I can do. The problem is the panels themselves, which have aluminum frames and are designed to use a rack-mount system that assembles and disassembles with hand-tools. I'd have to weld or metal-glue it somehow, maybe with Loc-tight. I don't have experience with welding. The panels themselves are pretty weak - the weld only has to be strong enough so that the panel is destroyed before the weld fails. Although looters might just destroy the panels out of spite.

Almost makes me want to add small second-floor patio over the garage, just for my solar panels. Probably very against building code. Worst-case scenario, I'd open up the second floor windows and let the panels get sun there, making sure the panels never get higher than the ledge of the window. Running the cabling would be a problem, but by then I wouldn't have problems drilling holes in my floor.

Oh, and Liberia? You really get around, don't you?

[Blackdog]

Thanks for the feedback Blackdog.

As someone wise on ZS once said, a little bit of electricity is a lot better than having no electricity, which was the inspiration for this. Obviously I wouldn't be doing anything stupid like running lights or TV that would be visible from the outside - at most, I'd be using a bit of light in the basement after blocking the windows with blackout curtains.

My main motivation for getting a ~120W set up is to have enough to run a small chest freezer (they actually don't take much power), with spare power to run a UV water filter, and to charge up radio and other battery-powered equipment. I don't need to tell you how useful it is to have a bit of refrigeration. And as Raptor says, cold cokes make the world go round. The system would be backed by about ~200Ah@12V of batteries. Haven't decided on the exact numbers yet.

I'm thinking of using the solar panel set-up on my back patio (backyard faces south), just for normal use. I'd put it away whenever I have guests. I don't think the neighbors would notice, because it won't be visible from their properties, unless they climb a tree. The panels would be shaded in the morning and evening, but for the prime hours of 9AM to 3PM, I'd be getting full sun. In a emergency bug-in situation, I'd put away the panels just-in-case, and run on batteries for a few days until I have a better idea of the threat level.

As for physical security, I'll use steel pipe rather than PVC, and I'll dig and set concrete pilings for the pipes to lock into. That part I can do. The problem is the panels themselves, which have aluminum frames and are designed to use a rack-mount system that assembles and disassembles with hand-tools. I'd have to weld or metal-glue it somehow, maybe with Loc-tight. I don't have experience with welding. The panels themselves are pretty weak - the weld only has to be strong enough so that the panel is destroyed before the weld fails. Although looters might just destroy the panels out of spite.

Almost makes me want to add small second-floor patio over the garage, just for my solar panels. Probably very against building code. Worst-case scenario, I'd open up the second floor windows and let the panels get sun there, making sure the panels never get higher than the ledge of the window. Running the cabling would be a problem, but by then I wouldn't have problems drilling holes in my floor.

Oh, and Liberia? You really get around, don't you?

Sounds good. You will have to excuse my sudden and uncontrolable fits of pessimism in reguards to SHTF.

Since I have them here are some pics from my current home away from home.

Water tank with pump. We put in two tanks linked together in Sarajevo but kind of the same drill.



Generator and water heater fuel tank. The house is heated by hot water, this is not for a nice shower.



The generator. I guess someone could steal it but the fuel it runs off of is tough to get to.



My reinforced door. In theory it only keeps out random rif raf. A determined intruder could get in but it would take some time. The door is pinned into the surrounding concrete.



Same drill with all the windows and doorways. Pinned metal. The keys to all the doorways are in a SOP location close to the door in case, you know we have to get out.





Other than the small solar panels we have nothing solar has been done. Sometime in the future at a location not yet determined we will probabaly have some form of solar pack up or maybe primary who knows.

We are currenty completely lacking in the wood heating area, but it hasn't proved to be an issue.

[urban-survivalist]

BD-I wish your story was a full length book or movie. Riveting. Seriously.

What an experience. From everything you've written it sounds like you were living closer to a PAW than most people ever will. Thanks for sharing.

[Blackdog]

Trust me, it would be long and boring. Compared with some of the stuff I know it would be no more than Archie and Veronica go to the junior prom. What it did do is color what I think about SHTF or PAW or what have you and not that rosie color that's for sure.

BD-I wish your story was a full length book or movie. Riveting. Seriously.

What an experience. From everything you've written it sounds like you were living closer to a PAW than most people ever will. Thanks for sharing.

[prepperdad]

This is the reason that we all need access to a good Urban Survival Guide. Although the "SH-T" may never hit the fan that bad for all of us, it is frightening to think about how we as Americans would survive without our shopping centers and Walmart and pre-packaged foods.

Mike Kuykendall, contributing editor to http://www.Survive2day.com.

[bigmattdaddywack]

subbed

[rsnurkle]

For anyone checking this thread for more information, take a look at the "SELCO" thread, which includes more notes about Balkan Conflict experiences: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=85519

This is the reason that we all need access to a good Urban Survival Guide. Although the "SH-T" may never hit the fan that bad for all of us, it is frightening to think about how we as Americans would survive without our shopping centers and Walmart and pre-packaged foods.

prepperdad, welcome to Zombie Squad. Please post an introduction in the Introduction subform--if you only have one post which prominently features links to another website, ZS members tend to get suspicious that you're just trying to advertise your website, rather than actually participate in the conversations happening on this forum. That said, the ZS board has a wealth of information (somewhat scattered, perhaps) on Urban Survival, and always welcomes the contribution of more ideas and experiences on this topic.

[PlugUgly]

BD- thanks for the thread! As a rather young person (ripe old age of 26), I only had the vaguest idea of the conflicts. I spent hours looking at the museums website. And for staters I'm frankly appalled that they don't teach us more about these conflicts in school. Since yesterday when I initially read this thread I've been digging up as much info as I can on the subject. Its unbelievable that a modern world society can let these things happen. Thanks again, and while it may be slow at times id have to second that emotion for a book!