Handheld FMRS Networking?

[Winston Smith]

I'm not a real radio expert, but has ZA ever gathered around the idea of having a channel on Motorola-style Handhelds? These are so rarely used, and have a pretty good variety of stations/security codes, etc, that beyond CB/HAM radio this could be a viable way to find other members in an emergency. Like I said, I'm no expert and not in touch with the ZS combo forums, just thought I'd provide some food for thought.

[TacAir]

Short range.
NO security (the 'security' codes they talk about of just CTCSS signaling)
Limited # of channels

Any number of things that so not recommend FRS for area wide contact point.\\For a family group, they would be great. Understanding that everything you said is open for anyone/everyone to hear.

MURS might be another place to try for your area though.

[KJ4VOV]

Also, not every brand of radio uses the same frequencies for the same channels. I'm too tired at the moment to dig and get the actual facts for you, so this is just a hypothetical example... Channel 1 on a Cobra might be the same frequency as channel 10 on a Motorola, which might be channel 5 on a Radio Shack model. Same for the "security codes" or "privacy codes" (which are actually neither).

[Winston Smith]

Definitely, good points. I forgot, I have a scanner I use for NASCAR, and I used to scan when I was near malls and stuff(some of their convos were pretty funny) so these would be easy to pick up. I am going to look into the MURS though.

[zommoz10]

In Europe, they've done something pretty neat with PMR (It's their low power UHF license free handy talkie service).
The rules there don't prohibit users from linking them up to their computers so they actually have a VOIP network using free software. You don't even need a radio at all to use it, anyone can download the software. I've listened to them on several occasions (for other reasons), they sound a lot like hams in their operation. It's very professional, shall we say.

As for using tone squelch to be interoperable with other ZS members, it's entirely possible just by using a non-standard tone. Since the radios that are capable of being programmed with a non-standard PL or DPL tone are non-compliant with FRS regulations, and since you can't legally modify or build your own FRS radio (I wonder who lobbied for that rule) like you can in the ham band, FRS wouldn't be an ideal radio service. MURS, as someone else suggested, would be much easier to do this because you have a lot more flexibility for the equipment.

It won't stop anyone from monitoring you but it should be pretty effective in keeping out all but ZS traffic. But the reality is, there's probably not going to be a whole lot of ZS members within close enough range to establish much of a network with low power portables. OTOH, I do seem many possibilities by using the HF ham band.

Then there's the whole issue of traffic handling. Lets say you could get everyone effectively on one channel. Then you'd have to have a protocol for transmitting and receiving and that's the kind of thing you learn through experience being a ham. There's a point where too many people on one channel is utterly useless.

[44Dave]

I see a lot of people trying to solve problems that amateur operators have already solved. I'd think if you are interested in comms to this degree it would be a small hurdle to get a Amateur Technicians license. It's very easy, and the equipment is only marginally more expensive (especially with the recent crop of Chinese handhelds) - but you do get much more flexible equipment for the $$$ plus the ability to plug into a much broader network of operators.

[KJ4VOV]

In Europe, they've done something pretty neat with PMR (It's their low power UHF license free handy talkie service).
The rules there don't prohibit users from linking them up to their computers so they actually have a VOIP network using free software. You don't even need a radio at all to use it, anyone can download the software. I've listened to them on several occasions (for other reasons), they sound a lot like hams in their operation. It's very professional, shall we say.

As for using tone squelch to be interoperable with other ZS members, it's entirely possible just by using a non-standard tone. Since the radios that are capable of being programmed with a non-standard PL or DPL tone are non-compliant with FRS regulations, you'd most likely have to modify an existing FRS radio or build one of your own. MURS, as someone else suggested, would be much easier to do this because you have a lot more flexibility for the equipment.

It won't stop anyone from monitoring you but it should be pretty effective in keeping out all but ZS traffic. But the reality is, there's probably not going to be a whole lot of ZS members within close enough range to establish much of a network with low power portables. OTOH, I do seem many possibilities by using the HF ham band.

Then there's the whole issue of traffic handling. Lets say you could get everyone effectively on one channel. Then you'd have to have a protocol for transmitting and receiving and that's the kind of thing you learn through experience being a ham. There's a point where too many people on one channel is utterly useless.

(highlighted section) Which would be illegal, so shouldn't be discussed here.

Also, tones won't "keep out" other traffic, it'll just keep you from hearing it. Unless you hit that MON (monitor) button, like you're supposed to before transmitting, to make sure the channel is clear.

There seems to be some common misconceptions about PL codes (or security codes, privacy codes, whatever the manufacturer calls it - it's still just a CTCSS) and how they work or what they do. Basically, it's a tone encoded squelch that simply keeps your radio quiet when others are transmitting, unless their radio is sending that sub-audible tone. It does absolutely nothing to your transmission as far as making it "private" or otherwise "secure" from anyone. Anyone monitoring that frequency without their own CTCSS set is going to hear you just fine. Personally, I've never really liked the fact that FRS/GMRS radios even support CTCSS, because so few people really understand how it works, so you end up with a bunch of folks all trying to use the frequency at the same time, each group using a different code, and talking all over each other because none of them bother with the monitor button to see if the frequency is in use first.

Now, don't get me wrong, CTCSS codes on such units can be very handy and useful, but only when used by folks who understand how it all works.

[Winston Smith]

Basically, it's a tone encoded squelch that simply keeps your radio quiet when others are transmitting, unless their radio is sending that sub-audible tone. It does absolutely nothing to your transmission as far as making it "private" or otherwise "secure" from anyone.

Wow, I thought that thing was frequency hopping, similar to military radios(I should have know that wasn't it, but I thought maybe in the last 5 years tech had gotten smaller and cheaper)but it sounds like that couldn't be farther from the truth. Sounds like an Amateur license might be something to look into.

[zommoz10]

In Europe, they've done something pretty neat with PMR (It's their low power UHF license free handy talkie service).
The rules there don't prohibit users from linking them up to their computers so they actually have a VOIP network using free software. You don't even need a radio at all to use it, anyone can download the software. I've listened to them on several occasions (for other reasons), they sound a lot like hams in their operation. It's very professional, shall we say.

As for using tone squelch to be interoperable with other ZS members, it's entirely possible just by using a non-standard tone. Since the radios that are capable of being programmed with a non-standard PL or DPL tone are non-compliant with FRS regulations, you'd most likely have to modify an existing FRS radio or build one of your own. MURS, as someone else suggested, would be much easier to do this because you have a lot more flexibility for the equipment.

It won't stop anyone from monitoring you but it should be pretty effective in keeping out all but ZS traffic. But the reality is, there's probably not going to be a whole lot of ZS members within close enough range to establish much of a network with low power portables. OTOH, I do seem many possibilities by using the HF ham band.

Then there's the whole issue of traffic handling. Lets say you could get everyone effectively on one channel. Then you'd have to have a protocol for transmitting and receiving and that's the kind of thing you learn through experience being a ham. There's a point where too many people on one channel is utterly useless.

(highlighted section) Which would be illegal, so shouldn't be discussed here.

There's nothing illegal about using non-standard CTCSS or DPL tones.

[zommoz10]

Wow, I thought that thing was frequency hopping, similar to military radios(I should have know that wasn't it, but I thought maybe in the last 5 years tech had gotten smaller and cheaper)but it sounds like that couldn't be farther from the truth.

It has, just that it's being used for the mobile phone industry.

[MVegas]

Is FHSS worth looking at? I'm in the market for a set of short-range handhelds myself and was considering opening a thread, but since this one has turned to hopping, figured I may as well ask here. I know they can't be considered secure in any real sense, but does it solve the problem of sharing the frequency with mallwalkers?

[KJ4VOV]

In Europe, they've done something pretty neat with PMR (It's their low power UHF license free handy talkie service).
The rules there don't prohibit users from linking them up to their computers so they actually have a VOIP network using free software. You don't even need a radio at all to use it, anyone can download the software. I've listened to them on several occasions (for other reasons), they sound a lot like hams in their operation. It's very professional, shall we say.

As for using tone squelch to be interoperable with other ZS members, it's entirely possible just by using a non-standard tone. Since the radios that are capable of being programmed with a non-standard PL or DPL tone are non-compliant with FRS regulations, you'd most likely have to modify an existing FRS radio or build one of your own. MURS, as someone else suggested, would be much easier to do this because you have a lot more flexibility for the equipment.

It won't stop anyone from monitoring you but it should be pretty effective in keeping out all but ZS traffic. But the reality is, there's probably not going to be a whole lot of ZS members within close enough range to establish much of a network with low power portables. OTOH, I do seem many possibilities by using the HF ham band.

Then there's the whole issue of traffic handling. Lets say you could get everyone effectively on one channel. Then you'd have to have a protocol for transmitting and receiving and that's the kind of thing you learn through experience being a ham. There's a point where too many people on one channel is utterly useless.

(highlighted section) Which would be illegal, so shouldn't be discussed here.

There's nothing illegal about using non-standard CTCSS or DPL tones.

You're right, there isn't. But the modified radio would lose its type acceptance certificate, thus making it illegal to operate it on FRS channels.

[zommoz10]

But the modified radio would lose its type acceptance certificate, thus making it illegal to operate it on FRS channels.

This is true. I will reword my post .

[KJ4VOV]

Also, to get back to the topic, there's no such thing as one radio that's ideal for every location or type of terrain, just as there isn't any one ideal vehicle for all types of terrain (Lincoln Town Cars make lousy rock crawlers, and rock crawlers make lousy highway cruisers), and no one firearm is perfect for every type of shooting (.22LR's are notoriously inadequate at bringing down Cape Buffalo, and .458 Winchester Magnums don't leave much rabbit left for the stew pot), so you need to carefully look at your communications requirements and what kind of terrain you'll have around you before shopping for a radio to meet those requirements.

[velojym]

I can see how they'd be limited in comparison to the more advanced Ham gear, but I can also see how they 'd be useful in an emergency.
The Comm vehicle can have a few on hand, to loan out to volunteers who won't be using the "good" hardware, and for close range camp use and day-to-day chatter.
Also, since they are available to the general public, I'd try to find a way to communicate a channel to the residents of the affected area, along with a reminder
about CB channel 9. A simple banner towed by an ultralight airplane would suffice for that, in addition to AM/FM broadcasts.

[buck85]

So, any handheld, mobile or base station that is rebanded (right term?) to the mrs frequency is illegal? Even, if it transmitting no more than two watts? Here is a link to the legal stuff.http://home.provide.net/~prsg/mursrule.htm#95.639

[KJ4VOV]

So, any handheld, mobile or base station that is rebanded (right term?) to the mrs frequency is illegal? Even, if it transmitting no more than two watts? Here is a link to the legal stuff.http://home.provide.net/~prsg/mursrule.htm#95.639

That is correct.

A MURS device must be certified by the FCC. A certified MURS device has an identifying label placed on it by the manufacturer.

LINK: http://www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/multi-u ... ice-murs-0

[KJ4VOV]

And here's the relevant section of Part 95 that covers certification for GMRS, FRS, MURS and CB (plus a few other items covered under the Personal Radio Services):

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 47, Volume 5]
[Revised as of October 1, 2010]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR95.603]

[Page 552]

TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 95_PERSONAL RADIO SERVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart E_Technical Regulations

Sec. 95.603 Certification required.

(a) Each GMRS transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is
intended to operate at a station authorized in the GMRS) must be
certificated.
(b) Each R/C transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended
to operate at a station authorized in the R/C) must be certificated,
except one that transmits only in the 26-27 MHz frequency band and is
crystal controlled (where the transmitted frequency is established by a
crystal (a quartz piezo-electric element)).
(c) Each CB transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended
to operate at a station authorized in the CB) must be certificated. No
CB transmitter certificated pursuant to an application filed prior to
September 10, 1976, shall be manufactured or marketed.
(d) Each FRS unit (a transmitter that operates or is intended to
operate in the FRS) must be certified for use in the FRS in accordance
with subpart J of part 2 of this chapter.
(e) Each Low Power Radio Service transmitter (a transmitter that
operates or is intended to operate in the LPRS) must be certificated.
(f) Each Medical Device Radiocommunication Service (MedRadio)
transmitter (a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate in
the MedRadio service) must be certificated except for such transmitters
that are not marketed for use in the United States, but which otherwise
comply with the MedRadio Service technical requirements and are operated
in the United States by individuals who have traveled to the United
States from abroad.
(g) Each Multi-Use Radio Service transmitter (a transmitter that
operates or is intended to operate in the MURS) must be certificated in
accordance with subpart J of part 2 of this chapter, Provided however,
that those radio units certificated as of November 12, 2002 need not be
recertificated.
(h) Each Dedicated Short-Range Communications Service On-Board Unit
(DSRCS-OBU) that operates or is intended to operate in the DSRCS (5.850-
5.925 GHz) must be certified in accordance with subpart L of this part
and subpart J of part 2 of this chapter.

[53 FR 36789, Sept. 22, 1988, as amended at 61 FR 28769, June 6, 1996;
61 FR 46567, Sept. 4, 1996; 63 FR 36610, July 7, 1998; 64 FR 69929, Dec.
15, 1999; 65 FR 60877, Oct. 13, 2000; 67 FR 63289, Oct. 11, 2002; 69 FR
46446, Aug. 3, 2004; 74 FR 22705, May 14, 2009]

LINK: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/wais ... 95_10.html

And, just to clarify, I bring this up not to say that it can't be done (modifying radios to other frequencies or non-standard CTCSS) but to point out that doing so and then using those radios to transmit would be illegal, and we cannot discuss such things here on ZS without violating the forum policies on illegal activities. Come to think of it, you wouldn't even have to actually transmit with such a radio for it to be illegal under Part 95, since the regs clearly state "...or is intended to operate..." (italics mine)

[buck85]

Quite interesting!, but, would the discussion about what if in a paws thing be unacceptable?

[buck85]

So,
Any radio that is not certified by the government is illegal to own and/or use. This is why a 10meter/cb combination radio is illegal to operate.
The use of any radio (hand held, mobile or base ) other than a cb radio requires a license.
Rebanding a radio into a band that is set a side for a specif us is illegal and make that radio decertified and illegal to operate.

There is so much misconceptions of what is right and wrong
There is so much misuse that the accepted practices is the norm.
To those who know, be patient with us, who dont know
thank you for your understanding!

[44Dave]

So,
Any radio that is not certified by the government is illegal to own and/or use. This is why a 10meter/cb combination radio is illegal to operate.

Not quite. You are welcome to build your own radio and use it without submitting it to the FCC for type acceptance (as long as you obey the pertinent laws about usage, license, etc).
What makes the 10M/CB illegal is that it was submitted to the FCC and type accepted as either a amateur (10M) or CB but the FCC will not certify one that works on both.

Could I build my own radio that works on 10M & CB? I believe so but I'm not 100% certain

[zommoz10]

Yet when it comes to made in China radios from ebay that aren't even part 15 certified, mum's the word.

[KJ4VOV]

First, amateur radio equipment does not require FCC type acceptance other than Part 15 for commercially sold equipment. Indeed, there is no such thing as Part 97 type acceptance. Amateur radio has always been an experimenters hobby, and hams have a long tradition of building their own gear and experimentation with new modes. The only time FCC type acceptance comes into play with ham gear is when it is offered for commercial sale, then it has to meet the requirements of Part 15, as does just about every other commercially made consumer electronic device. Check the label on your 2m HT and see for yourself. And those Chinese HT's mentioned above are now Part 15 certificated, even the older ones without the sticker (they were grandfathered in)

As to why the "combo" rigs (10m - 11m) are illegal is because Federal regulations forbid certification of radios capable of transmission in two services. (FRS and GMRS are both in the same service, Part 95) 10 meter is Part 97 and 11 meter is Part 97 (Part 95 being the Personal Radio Service and Part 97 being the Amateur Radio Service) and also because Part 95 specifically mandates that CB radios may only transmit on the very specific frequencies that comprise the CB channels.

And lastly, the ZS mods, admins and BoD have stated, time and time again, that discussions of illegal activities are not allowed on here, PAW, SHTF, TEOTWAWKI notwithstanding.

Why do I know all this crap? One, because I'm a ham and I studied it and, two, because the chief of the emcomm team I belong to is an FCC engineer.

[aa1pr]

So,
Any radio that is not certified by the government is illegal to own and/or use. This is why a 10meter/cb combination radio is illegal to operate.

Not quite. You are welcome to build your own radio and use it without submitting it to the FCC for type acceptance (as long as you obey the pertinent laws about usage, license, etc).
What makes the 10M/CB illegal is that it was submitted to the FCC and type accepted as either a amateur (10M) or CB but the FCC will not certify one that works on both.

Could I build my own radio that works on 10M & CB? I believe so but I'm not 100% certain

Why would you ever want to build a CB?

OK go ahead & limit yoruself to a specific frequency range & limited power.

Get your ham ticket & a real radio