In a legitimate zombie apocalypse..AR or AK?

[azrael99]

with the price of Russian guns ammo, i don't think it would be hard to anyone to store enough ammo to survive a while. (for 250$ you can get over 2000 bullet of 7.62X39) so for 500 $ you are settle for a while.

[Kutter_0311]

Not recommending "finding" ammunition, we prep, buy it now, or cry about it later....

Is it DI?Would shooting corrosive surplus wreck a DI system or not?I was curious about that rifle it looks interesting.Isn't SW not really the best AR manufacturer?

And yes I'm glad everyone is on the same page about buying ammunition beforehand.I however would like to add that God forbid someone do something illegal on occasion, ,if the world has truly gone to shit and everyone are zombies and I pass a gun store I'm going to look inside.The police can charge me when things settle down.

Regardless, we don't talk about it here, friend-o. Keep those thoughts to yourself, or find another board.

I wholely agree, 74's are currently drasticly in the minority. Supply isn't really keeping up with demand, or buyers can't afford to buy into a different caliber that came late to the party. I fall into the latter category.

I snagged a few of the Century WASR's when my local Dunham's started carrying them a few years ago. I upgraded to a pair of SGL21's this spring for the MilCopp class because I already had ammo, mags, etc in 7.62x39, so I didn't spend more money diversifying my weapons at that time.

On the list of things to pick up soon: a pair of SGL31's, mags, a couple pallets of ammo, & a couple BCS AK74 rigs.

That will put me at 2 AKM's, 2 AK74's, and a Sig 556, covering 7.62, 5.45, and 5.56 fed from the most popular mags.

Of course, that would require an actual income some time soon...

[AK47Heaven]

Not recommending "finding" ammunition, we prep, buy it now, or cry about it later....

Is it DI?Would shooting corrosive surplus wreck a DI system or not?I was curious about that rifle it looks interesting.Isn't SW not really the best AR manufacturer?

And yes I'm glad everyone is on the same page about buying ammunition beforehand.I however would like to add that God forbid someone do something illegal on occasion, ,if the world has truly gone to shit and everyone are zombies and I pass a gun store I'm going to look inside.The police can charge me when things settle down.

Regardless, we don't talk about it here, friend-o. Keep those thoughts to yourself, or find another board.

Fair enough I take the 0311 in your name to mean you were a rifleman,is there a reason you opted against getting an AR?Did you have good experience with it in the Corps?

[Kutter_0311]

I take the 0311 in your name to mean you were a rifleman,is there a reason you opted against getting an AR?Did you have good experience with it in the Corps?

You are correct, I spent a few years carrying a rifle and drinking in foreign ports on Uncle Sugar's dime. Never had a problem with one of my issued M16's, and I could usually get other guys rifles running fine if they had issues. I bought a Bushy A2-clone from a friend when I got out, but after a good many thousands of rounds, it wasn't running reliably on the Wolf I was feeding it, so I traded it to an armorer buddy. I was having much better luck with the AK's, so I invested more in them.

Overall, AR's are good weapons, in their niche. I just have had better luck with AK's as privately owned weapons. AR's do very well when supported by a crew of armorers, or at least owned by someone who will put the effort in to learning to maintain it. I'm just not that guy. I'd rather pay $800 for a rifle that just does what it does, without stopping, or careing, or feeling or sleeping, like a frakkin Terminator or Cylon, and learn how to run that rifle as well as I used to run an M16. I know that will take time, and money, and drive, and I still won't be able to hit a man-sized target @ 500m like I could with an M16(7.62x39 just doesn't have the ballistics for that range), but if a vehicle is charging me, I've got a much better chance of stopping it with the AKM. I don't have to worry about my rifle failing to cycle, or my bullet failing to punch through. If I do my part as a rifleman, pretty much anything within 200m is mine, and with a lot of practice, maybe even 300m.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

To echo Kutter, I have also across the seas with an M16. I rocked an A4 as well as an M4. Terminal ballistics suffer past 300m with M855, and is slightly improved by using upgraded ammo. Today's ARs can do wonderful things in terms of attaching crazy shit, but for the cost of solid AR, a solid AK with similar amounts of shit stuck on it. Or, you can rock a customized reliable AK system. No, a 7.62x39 (I've never played with a 5.45) will not have the same level of accuracy as an AR at 500m, but that's less of an issue for the stated use.

ETA: Russian surplus also comes in cool spam cans.

[AK47Heaven]

Thanks for the replies everybody!!!The Kalash is no doubt what I would choose to stake my life on if it really came to it, but as most of you already have, I decided to get an AR and an AK

In related news, I got my CCW today.

#Winning

[Jeriah]

-Fast zombies
-Headshots required
-Society has completely gone to shit

Which rifle do you choose?

Since zombies are a pretty long shot/far fetched scenario, it's unlikely that this question is going to be the one that determines which rifle you buy in the first place. You buy a rifle based on what more likely threats you expect to face, which one looks cooler or would be more fun to shoot, or which one will be advantageous in the kind of courses or competitions you want to run. Something like that. So basically, you choose the one that you already had because you bought it for something else.

Of course, many of us decided that we wanted to own both, so then we have to choose. For a lot of us, who don't stock as much ammo as we should, we'd go to the rifle we have a lot of ammo for at the moment. (For me, right now, that's the AR, but that's incidental.) If we have ammo for both, we'd take the one we have more experience shooting, and again for me that's the AR. Of course, the REASON I have more experience shooting the AR is that I've chosen it as the weapon with which I'd run a couple of courses with, because although I find both the AR and AK to be effective, the AR has a couple of advantages which make it my go-to first choice.

Will an AK be accurate enough for consistent running headshots?Will an AR be reliable enough stake your life on?

These are the wrong questions to be asking. The right questions are:

Will I have to engage targets beyond 200 meters? The AK is bad at this, the AR is better. (This is not the same as "the AR is more accurate." It has to do with the ballistics of the rounds they fire, and so here we are assuming a 7.62mm AK, and a 5.56mm AR.) Since zombies can't shoot back, they're not much of a threat outside of 200 meters, so this is a non-issue in your scenario. So it's a non issue. Advantage: none.

Will I have to engage targets behind light cover? Neither rifle is going to flatten a reinforced concrete bunker, but someone hiding behind a cinder block wall might find their protection reduced by multiple hits of 7.62x39mm a little bit faster than by 5.56mm. I don't plan on shooting through walls, but if it happens, and they're marginal (i.e. not tissue paper and not homogenous steel), the AK will go through them slightly more often than the AR. But zombies aren't going to be hiding behind cover, and you're not going to get a headshot by dumb luck shooting through a wall. So it's a non issue. Advantage: none.

Will I have to operate the weapon without lubrication? The AR requires frequent lubrication (I think every 500 rounds is pretty safe) to remain reliable. The AK runs BETTER with lubrication but runs better without it than an AR does. A Fail Zero bolt carrier group eliminates this concern in the AR, as does carrying a bottle of lube with you. So it's a non issue. Advantage: none.

Will I have to reload my weapon quickly? To reload an AK, you have to grab your fresh mag, use it to hit the mag release and knock the old mag out of the way, rock the new one in, cant the weapon to the side and reach over the top, pull the charging handle to the rear, and release it. To reload an AR, you hit the mag release with your trigger finger while grabbing your reload with your weak hand, insert the reload, and then hit your bolt release which is right above the mag you just inserted. This is much faster, given an equal level of training. Yes, you can train to be pretty fast with an AK...but you can train to get even faster with an AR. This discrepancy NEVER goes away: novices reload ARs faster than AKs, and so do experts. This is a real issue, if you've got x number of rounds in your mag and x+1 zombies in the room with you, you're doing a reload and fractions of a second mean getting bit or not. So, this is an extremely serious issue. Advantage: AR-15, all the way.

The opportunity to come across spare parts and magazines for ARs may not come for months or even years, you can only carry so much replacement gear on your person.

You ain't going to "come across" shit, so that's a non issue. Stock what you need now, carry what you can, cache the rest at home, in a vehicle, or at your BOL.

I personally would take the AKM because it is the rifle I own and it has been stupid reliable for 3k rounds (2 malfunctions),I trust my life with it despite it being a WASR.

That is a good reason to choose that weapon. A good AR would be just as reliable, presuming you keep it lubricated. My advice would be to practice the hell out of your reloads (the way I described it), to mitigate against the slightly slower reload time of the AK. That's the one drawback of that weapon system, but if you train, train, and train some more, you can minimize it. An AR will always be faster, but with enough training, the difference probably won't be enough to get you killed.

[Kutter_0311]

In related news, I got my CCW today. #Winning

Congrats! Mine should be here any freakin day

Will I have to reload my weapon quickly? To reload an AK, you have to grab your fresh mag, use it to hit the mag release and knock the old mag out of the way, rock the new one in, cant the weapon to the side and reach over the top, pull the charging handle to the rear, and release it. To reload an AR, you hit the mag release with your trigger finger while grabbing your reload with your weak hand, insert the reload, and then hit your bolt release which is right above the mag you just inserted. This is much faster, given an equal level of training. Yes, you can train to be pretty fast with an AK...but you can train to get even faster with an AR. This discrepancy NEVER goes away: novices reload ARs faster than AKs, and so do experts. This is a real issue, if you've got x number of rounds in your mag and x+1 zombies in the room with you, you're doing a reload and fractions of a second mean getting bit or not. So, this is an extremely serious issue. Advantage: AR-15, all the way.

From my own personal experience, I totally agree. Before I had any training at all, I managed to change mags startlingly fast on an AR. Pretty sure that first AR mag change was still faster than I currently change AK mags, and I've been practicing that a lot!

I personally would take the AKM because it is the rifle I own and it has been stupid reliable for 3k rounds (2 malfunctions),I trust my life with it despite it being a WASR.

That is a good reason to choose that weapon. A good AR would be just as reliable, presuming you keep it lubricated. My advice would be to practice the hell out of your reloads (the way I described it), to mitigate against the slightly slower reload time of the AK. That's the one drawback of that weapon system, but if you train, train, and train some more, you can minimize it. An AR will always be faster, but with enough training, the difference probably won't be enough to get you killed.

Again, I agree. The rifle you know and trust is far more useful than a battlefield pick-up, even if it's the same kind. Someone else's rifle isn't zero'ed to you. I will point out, though, that the last 3 buddies that tried out my SGL21's stated they felt and pointed very naturally, and got hits easily, despite being used to AR's or M1A's.

[hatchtrikk]

Kutter, you are the second person in the last 6 months that has mentioned a rifle being zeroed to the shooter. Forgive my noobness, but wouldn't the rifle be centered to the bore, regardless of shooter? I.E., my Eotech is sighted in on my AR and no matter who shoots it, it hits where it's pointed. Same with the irons. Put the post in the center and the bullet should hit where it's supposed to. Right?

Am I missing something?

[Jeriah]

Kutter, you are the second person in the last 6 months that has mentioned a rifle being zeroed to the shooter. Forgive my noobness, but wouldn't the rifle be centered to the bore, regardless of shooter? I.E., my Eotech is sighted in on my AR and no matter who shoots it, it hits where it's pointed. Same with the irons. Put the post in the center and the bullet should hit where it's supposed to. Right?

Am I missing something?

If you use a slightly different sight picture than I do, but you use it consistently, then you and I will each be accurate with our own rifles, but if we switch weapons, we will both be off. Or if I use more finger on my trigger than you do and it pulls my shots, ditto. Theoretically these are "errors" and there may be some Platonic ideal of perfect shooting technique, and if everybody used that, we could swap weapons all day and hit the same point. But in practice, this may not always be the case, or maybe it's just that everybody is a slightly imperfect shooter but we're all imperfect in slightly different ways. Hell, I don't know. Maybe leet pros all shoot perfectly and could swap weapons all day no problem.

In practice, by the way, I haven't found it to be a real issue. I've borrowed weapons all the time and shot as well with them as I do with my own weapons. Doc66's AR at MilCopp the first time, for one example, and I was getting hits at least as well as with my own weapon. However, I have noticed that sometimes it takes me a few shots to figure out my holds or proper sight picture. The loaner Uzi at Knob Creek's Jungle Walk, for example, I felt like I had to aim just a hair low, like if I aim at the bottom edge of a metal plate, I'd hit it dead on. (Anyone else shoot this match and notice it? Or was it just me?)

[thesupremeking]

In related news, I got my CCW today.

#Winning

Congrats! Mine is useless now in AZ, as we can all conceal carry without a permit now.

[azrael99]

this ain't a AK but still. it the same idea.
i believe i would trust this one to save my butt

[Kutter_0311]

Kutter, you are the second person in the last 6 months that has mentioned a rifle being zeroed to the shooter. Forgive my noobness, but wouldn't the rifle be centered to the bore, regardless of shooter? I.E., my Eotech is sighted in on my AR and no matter who shoots it, it hits where it's pointed. Same with the irons. Put the post in the center and the bullet should hit where it's supposed to. Right? Am I missing something?

If you use a slightly different sight picture than I do, but you use it consistently, then you and I will each be accurate with our own rifles, but if we switch weapons, we will both be off. Or if I use more finger on my trigger than you do and it pulls my shots, ditto. Theoretically these are "errors" and there may be some Platonic ideal of perfect shooting technique, and if everybody used that, we could swap weapons all day and hit the same point. But in practice, this may not always be the case, or maybe it's just that everybody is a slightly imperfect shooter but we're all imperfect in slightly different ways. Hell, I don't know. Maybe leet pros all shoot perfectly and could swap weapons all day no problem.

In practice, by the way, I haven't found it to be a real issue. I've borrowed weapons all the time and shot as well with them as I do with my own weapons. Doc66's AR at MilCopp the first time, for one example, and I was getting hits at least as well as with my own weapon. However, I have noticed that sometimes it takes me a few shots to figure out my holds or proper sight picture. The loaner Uzi at Knob Creek's Jungle Walk, for example, I felt like I had to aim just a hair low, like if I aim at the bottom edge of a metal plate, I'd hit it dead on. (Anyone else shoot this match and notice it? Or was it just me?)

This is how I understand it, the "different imperfections/different offsets" thing. At close range, like we shot at MilCopp this year, most people should be able to get hits with each others rifles, especially with a good optic. Use iron sights, and/or extend range to 200-300m, and I think you'll see a lot more difference in POA/POI, as the differences in shooting styles changes. We always zero'ed in the gear we were going to fight in, also, as this could affect POA/POI with the irons(i was a pre-optic grunt )

[AK47Heaven]

Jeriah thank you for your post, I agree on most things with the exception of a few.I believe that in a legitimate apocalypse of any kind(zombie,economic,nuclear,etc...) you will,occasionally, have the opportunity to come across equipment, weapons, and ammunition.

There is a taboo on this forum about looting and I understand that is why many are so hesitant to speak on this, but let me make myself clear I am NOT advocating looting or stealing, I am merely saying if the government and authorities are completely disbanded,and you found a dead body with 5 loaded AKM/AR magazines in his ruck, you, and I, would take them.Lets not be foolish here, anybody stating otherwise is lying, and I firmly believe what I just described is not morally wrong.

I'm just sick of such a knowledgeable community like ZS acting as though you will NEVER, EVER, find ANYTHING.I'm sorry but that is ridiculous to me.I have found 100 dollars on a sidewalk before,it doesn't happen every fucking day but it definitely happens.

[Kutter_0311]

(something about finding stuff) I have found 100 dollars on a sidewalk before,it doesn't happen every fucking day but it definitely happens.

Yes, sometimes you find stuff. I find money here and there, too. Other neat and useful stuff, too, like a 9/16" socket, a little pocket knife, about a dozen camelbak bite valves, etc.

But I've never planned on finding any of it.

Since the idea is planning, we don't count on finding things that don't generally show up in nature. Water is common in my AO, so I plan on finding it. Firewood, too. Mags? Ammo? Never seen those lying around, not here. Found a flat M16 mag on a range in Korea once, but that was A) flat, like a pancake, as in garbage, and B) on a live fire range in Korea. Generally, these things have value, so people don't just discard them. If people don't discard them, it's still someone's property, thus illegal to take. Illegal activity is a NO-GO here, so please don't ever mention it again. I'm cool with planning for a common caliber, there are way more reasons for this than 'finding ammo and mags' (cuz that just ain't gonna happen). Use another reason.

[Pilsung]

The AK vs. AR argument has been done to death, IMHO. Get 'em both & be done with it.

That said, I can never resist reading the back & forth point-scoring.

[RickOShea]

Ruger Minis FTW !!!

[azrael99]

do a mini-14 in 7.62X39 exist ?

ok ok i get out

[RickOShea]

do a mini-14 in 7.62X39 exist ?

The top one is my Mini-30 truck gun (in 7.62x39).

The bottom one is GaryMalibou's Mini-14.

[EDSLocklear]

Of the two, I would take the AK-47. If I could choose from any weapon, though, I would stick with a reliable M1911. Easy to keep it in working order, great weapon for untrained persons, accurate, it's unstoppable.

[Kutter_0311]

Of the two, I would take the AK-47. If I could choose from any weapon, though, I would stick with a reliable M1911. Easy to keep it in working order, great weapon for untrained persons, accurate, it's unstoppable.

Actually, I think it's the easiest round ever to stop, at least with ballistic armor...

[LowKey]

Of the two, I would take the AK-47. If I could choose from any weapon, though, I would stick with a reliable M1911. Easy to keep it in working order, great weapon for untrained persons, accurate, it's unstoppable.

Actually, I think it's the easiest round ever to stop, at least with ballistic armor...

I think that honor goes to .38 S&W. Not .38 Special, but the original .38


I'll throw in that no weapon is "great" for untrained persons, but the 1911 is much further down on the list of handguns I'd choose to hand to a person with limited training.
You want an "easy for a beginner to learn" handgun, go with a Glock or an XD.
The 1911 has to much going on for someone who's only knowledge of handguns is "I think this is the end the bullets come out of."

[EDSLocklear]

Actually, I think it's the easiest round ever to stop, at least with ballistic armor...

Well, most zombies you would encounter wouldn't be wearing ballistics, now would they?

[Kutter_0311]

Actually, I think it's the easiest round ever to stop, at least with ballistic armor...

Well, most zombies you would encounter wouldn't be wearing ballistics, now would they?

If I got bit, you'd have to deal with a zed in plates and an ACH... Better hope zed-me can't use the SGL21 or the Glock...