SELCO - Real life experience from Balkan Conflict

[JT_of_JFF]

This links to a discussion on another board, but seems to contain a lot of good info.

Like Ferfal (who experience the economic collapse in Argentina), Selco seems to be trying to tie some real life experience to prepping using his survival in Croatia/Bosnia as a backdrop. Its a long thread with some irrelevent tangents and some doubters. Some of the experience goes counter to many people's assumptions about what really happens or whats really important.

I offer it up here as a source of discusion just as we might discuss a book or movie.
Posting summaries or lessons learned from the thread might be a good practice.

SELCO @ survivalistboards.com \ my shtf expirience-wartime

I think it would be best not to entertain some of the tangents as it applies to religion, politics and such (and against ZS policy) .
Please, if you read it, stay on topic with our discussion.

[raptor]

That is a great link and a great read. Lezinc also has great post in that same thread. It takes a while to read and more than a few trolls seem to pop up in the thread, but it is worth reading.

BTW I do not agree with SELCO's opinion about weapons and ammo being the most important thing to have on hand. I think that comment was generated due to not having a reasonable level of self defense firearms on hand and little or no training.

I do agree 1000% with his opinion on hygiene being very important and need for hygiene materials (alcohol, FAK, clean water)

Obviously I respect his experience, candor and opinions, even if I disagree with a few of the points he makes. I am not saying he is wrong, only that in other situations things may be different

[JT_of_JFF]

Here's a related blog;

http://htsurv.blogspot.com/

[JT_of_JFF]

http://shtfschool.com/

[sigboy40]

I'm with Raptor, when I read it, the thing that struck me the most was the need for more hygeine products. I used to think 24 bars of soap was enough, now I wonder.

[WhoShotJR]

Interesting read. I like his idea of storing half his preps at another location within reasonable walking distance.

[JT_of_JFF]

Many of my preps take hygiene into account but not to the level he's suggesting. Looks like it should be a MAIN category as opposed to a SUB category.

That said he has an interesting take on trade items, black market, water, hygiene, etc.

Really good discussion about family, neighborhood dynamics and security.

Some items to note about movement and rules of engagement.

Interesting to bounce this back and forth with FERFAL (economic collapse in Argentina) and SELCO (war). Sometimes they're saying the smae things just at different levels because of the different circumstances.

[raptor]

Interesting to bounce this back and forth with FERFAL (economic collapse in Argentina) and SELCO (war). Sometimes they're saying the smae things just at different levels because of the different circumstances.

I agree.
The Balkans had a full blown ethnic/civil war going on there. Violence and genocide were the key risks of the day. It was a nightmare for the people.
FERFAL certainly had a rough time but he did not have to worry about snipers shooting him, tanks and mortars (thank God!). So the risks and the experiences will be different. It also likely accounts for SELCO's making firearms the #1 priority.

[JT_of_JFF]

So the risks and the experiences will be different. It also likely accounts for SELCO's making firearms the #1 priority.

Interesting part is both promote pistols over other firearms as part of a 'grey man' approach to survival. Big flashy guns make you a target.

[hondo]

I have idea from where Selko is which town is in question.
At this moment I am off to bed but in next few days I shall contribute to this topic . There is a reason why Selco putting so much focus on firearms .
I shall write up my experience from Balkan Wars but pleas guys give me sometime to trim irrelevant from important . OK?

[Kutter_0311]

I'm certainly starting to look at pistols as more important than rifles.

[Blackdog]

Have not slugged thru it all. Several of folks interested in fire services. One thing the Balkans has going for it is most houses and buildings in general are made from pored concrete or at least concrete block. A house could burn out straight up and leave a shell. I often wonder if North America would turn into one giant fire storm in a similar situation. Had a guy ask me not too long ago something like this: I hear you guys build your houses out of sticks, true?

Well yeah. If nothing else the Balkans has given me a real appreciation for pored concrete.

[ODA 226]

BTW I do not agree with SELCO's opinion about weapons and ammo being the most important thing to have on hand. I think that comment was generated due to not having a minimum level of self defense firearms on hand and no training.

I agree with him that THE MOST important thing to have is a firearm at the begining of the "troubles".

I have personally exhumed the bodies of hundreds that did not have the ability to defend themselves at the begining of that conflict, and they all died in the most horrible ways and most all of them begging for their lives as they were forced to kneel down at gunpoint...

If you cannot defend yourself and your loved ones in that type of situation and you have ANYTHING of value, there will ALWAYS be someone there to take away everything you have to include your life.

[raptor]

BTW I do not agree with SELCO's opinion about weapons and ammo being the most important thing to have on hand. I think that comment was generated due to not having a minimum level of self defense firearms on hand and no training.

I agree with him that THE MOST important thing to have is a firearm at the begining of the "troubles".

I have personally exhumed the bodies of hundreds that did not have the ability to defend themselves at the begining of that conflict, and they all died in the most horrible ways and most all of them begging for their lives as they were forced to kneel down at gunpoint...

If you cannot defend yourself and your loved ones in that type of situation and you have ANYTHING of value, there will ALWAYS be someone there to take away everything you have to include your life.

I think I should expand on my answer. I do not mean firearms are not important. I do agree without a doubt that a means to protect your self against foreseeable risks is mandatory. A firearm (better yet 2), a reasonable supply of ammo/spares and sufficient training and practice to use them is best way to address this is IMO. If you want more that is fine, but do not confuse gun collecting with preparation. They are two distinct activities.

The three key basic elements you should have are shelter, food/water and protection. These individual items are not very useful unless all are in place. Too many people believe having 15+ firearms and 40,000+ rounds of ammo is all you need to be prepared. There is nothing wrong with having that many firearms (many of us have more ); it is just that you should make sure that your other risks/needs are addressed. You cannot eat ammo, cure an infection with gun oil, or stave off hunger thirst or cold with a firearm. You can protect your self from others trying to take your food, water or FAK with it but that is about it. You can of course think you can use the firearm to take these things from others, but if you do sooner or later you will run into a ZS'er (perhaps like ODA ) who will very quickly "explain" to you the error of your ways.

Thus IMO firearms/ammo are not THE most important items. They are in the top 4 most important items with the other three being food/water, FAK and basic shelter. Each will rise to #1 position during a SHTF event depending upon your needs and what is going on around you. That is the long winded explanation of my original post.

Edited to add:
I have said many times your biggest risk in a SHTF is from health issues. combat operations, snipers and artillery strikes aside the biggest killer of civilians (some time combatants also) in wartime is disease, hunger, exposure in winter and pestilence. This was made abundantly clear by SELCO in his posts.

[Regular Guy]

^^^What Raptor just wrote or a refined version on it should be sticked some where, maybe in the rules or intro thread.

[Gyrfalcon]

I'm going to have to disagree, Raptor. You can survive a month without food under most circumstances. You can survive 2 days without water. You can survive a few minutes without air. One minute without a firearm the instant you need it? In many cases, that is not survivable.

I do agree with your overall message, of course.

[raptor]

I'm going to have to disagree, Raptor. You can survive a month without food under most circumstances. You can survive 2 days without water. You can survive a few minutes without air. One minute without a firearm the instant you need it? In many cases, that is not survivable.

I do agree with your overall message, of course.

Not to belabor the point, but having a firearm the instant that you need it does not mean that you will survive until the next instant. A firearm is not a talisman that will keep you safe; without training and knowledge is useless. Again just pointing that knowledge and skill in using a firearm is IMO yet one more thing important than a firearm. It is also ironically useless without a firearm.

My $.02.

[ODA 226]

Think of a layered approach to your preps, Shelter, Water, Food and a Firearm to protect yourself AND your preps. All are integral to each other and ALL are equally important.

[mk_ultra]

Think of a layered approach to your preps, Shelter, Water, Food and a Firearm to protect yourself AND your preps. All are integral to each other and ALL are equally important.

Agreed .

Prepping is a lifestyle and a balancing act .

[raptor]

Think of a layered approach to your preps, Shelter, Water, Food and a Firearm to protect yourself AND your preps. All are integral to each other and ALL are equally important.

I agree this is an excellent summary.

[Gyrfalcon]

I'm going to have to disagree, Raptor. You can survive a month without food under most circumstances. You can survive 2 days without water. You can survive a few minutes without air. One minute without a firearm the instant you need it? In many cases, that is not survivable.

I do agree with your overall message, of course.

Not to belabor the point, but having a firearm the instant that you need it does not mean that you will survive until the next instant. A firearm is not a talisman that will keep you safe; without training and knowledge is useless. Again just pointing that knowledge and skill in using a firearm is IMO yet one more thing important than a firearm. It is also ironically useless without a firearm.

My $.02.

Having food and water one second does not mean the individual in question will survive until the next instant. Particularly if he's unarmed when he needs it the most. A talisman? Raptor, nobody here is espousing that view. Did you see that viewpoint even implied in my statement? Training and knowledge are part and parcel of owning a defensive firearm. Yes, I am well aware that there are plenty of less-than-prudent individuals out there who will say, "I've got my map and compass" and will have no idea how to use them. Or "I've got plenty of food," but nothing with which to cook it. I take it as a given that we are among intelligent people here, Raptor. Not the kind who say, "I've got a generator, but no fuel for it." Yes, I think the examples are very comparable.

Look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Immediate physiological needs are number one. If one is dead because one has had a bullet put in one's head by a roving band of marauders, one cannot eat or drink. That is why I say that an effective means of defense (whether it is a firearm or hiding) is first and foremost. I do not deny that food, water and shelter are not almost equal. But those things are, in fact, completely meaningless, if you are incapable of protecting either yourself or your goods.

[survivaljoe]

I'm actually watching "Welcome to Sarajevo" right now. Most of the experiences Selco writes about are shown in this film as well as plenty of footage that appears very real (I'm sure it must be actual news footage). The film really gives a great visual addition to the account of Selco.

[fourway]

Not to belabor the point, but having a firearm the instant that you need it does not mean that you will survive until the next instant. A firearm is not a talisman that will keep you safe; without training and knowledge is useless. Again just pointing that knowledge and skill in using a firearm is IMO yet one more thing important than a firearm. It is also ironically useless without a firearm.

My $.02.

Selco talks about watching a man with a weapon aimed at his attacker get killed with a knife when the attacker rushed him.

no amount of skill, preparation, training or magic talismans will insure that you can use lethal force against another human being. people get killed all the time because they freeze when it's time to actually kill someone. military training and some other experiences can do a great deal to prepare a person for that moment but even in war a lot of the bullets in the air are fired by people who aren't trying to hit anyone.

[hondo]

Let me share my experience with you . I shall try to keep it simple . As far as former Yugoslavia goes especially Bosnia and Herzegovina it wasn't what most people imagine when they hear Bosnia. It was simple but good life. My generation grow up in Levis jeans , Adidas and Reebok drinking Coca-Cola and watching American movies at the same time when they played in the USA ( Rambo and Red Dawn are responsible for quite few lost lives. A lot of guys in the firs days of war carried a notion how they going to stand and fire at the enemy and the enemy are going to drop dead an mass while the worst thing that is going to happen to them is a scratch just before they yell "Wolverins". In the practice it was different )
People in the best position were farmers and when I say farmers I mean people who were farming land and have had livestock as a part of their lives for long time. Now that is not an option for most people so I shall focus on survival of the people who live in the urban areas .
The best set up for war was house basement ( full basement , dry and clean preferably set as a family room) keeps you under the ground covered with a lot of concrete from bullets and shells .
wood stove with oven and cooking surface
wood (dried and chopped ) for cooking in the winter months.
gas cooker / gas stove for cooking in the summer months also that way is much faster to cook coffee and small meals.
car battery and charger for it gives you light also you can hook up radio or small camper tv that way you know what is going on and you have some resamblence of normal life.
Generator is great idea but works only if you live on few hundreds of acres of land and your closest neighbor is few miles from you. In all other situations it is source of noise especialy when power grid is out of the function . you need fuel to keep generator going which is in such situations scarce and it won't be long before your neighbor ask you to hook on your generator and next and next and so on . If you say no sooner than latter you shall be told how it is not fair that you have power when rest of the hood is in dark .
Fuel ( for cars )
Food : Flour , cooking oil , rice , beans, powder milk, powder egs , cans of fruits , seasoning ( food taste way better with proper amount of seasoning) coffee, tea , smokes ( don't try to quit in the high stress situations do it now or be read to go temporary nuts )
Water locate independent source ( power grid goes down and water pumps stop working ) artesian well or spring have canisters for water and water only . Plastic water drums .
If you taking medication regularly always have as much as possible on hand ( kept in cold ,dark ,dray place medication can last up to year longer after expiration date)
Pain medication , kids medication ,allergy medication.
Keep your teeth healthy now , in time of the crises dentist run out of dental material .
Shampoo , toothpaste , soap, detergents and washing soap .
Big cooking pots for water heating for showers and for washing clothes , undies , socks .
Hair trimmers .
Body lotions and chap sticks

Get to know your neighbors you don't need to break bread with them but get to know them, who are they , what they do for fun, any previous military,law enforcement ,emt experience , do they hunt etc. Get familiar with all entrances and exits from your hood , possible avenues of advance of the enemy and escape routes if needed .

Guns , ammo , training buy the best what you can afford and what you feel most comfortable better hit with 22 than miss with 338 .
Reason why Selco emphasizing handguns so much is because of few reasons first gun laws are more strict over there than in the USA to obtain permit to purchase handgun one is looking in a month long process. For rifle one needs to be a hunter , to became hunter one must complete hunters education which takes a year ( unarmed hunter intern) than after that comes hunters exam and than one gets paperwork needed to submit request to obtain permit to purchase hunting rifle . Whole process takes from 13 to 16 months . Handgun you can carry all the time and in the time of crises do not count to much on the law enforcement to protect you.
also a lot of the people had no firearms I remember one night I came home from the city and I got talking with guys who were on the night shift that night in my hood ( Neg.Watch only armed ) and there is three guys one has a meet cleaver , other some nasty looking survival knife and third have had 25 acp handgun wow I felt so secure that night

In the end it is you and your neighbors who keeping bad people out of the hood , sooner or latter you shall run out of the food ,wood , water but you want to delay that as long as possible . Having warm room , clean bed and being able to wash your self and put on clean clothes is almost important as having food for mental and physical health .