Guys at the Front Door, 4AM

[Tribunal Power]

At 3:40 AM, I was sitting in my brother's livingroom (I'm living with my brother right now) watching TV. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw the glass front door open. Understand that the front door has two doors-- the outside (what would otherwise be a screen door, but is clear plexiglass instead) and the inside (wooden, but with a full-body plexiglass window in it). Through the slats on the inside door, I saw the outside door pulled open.

My brother and his wife were indisposed, and my wife is in bed. There was no possibility of this being anyone we knew-- not at nearly 4am. Somewhat alarmed, I turned the TV down, watching and listening. I saw through the slats of the inside door that the outside door was being held open. With the TV turned down, I heard some talking on the other side of the door. I was carrying at the time and so I drew my weapon and watched carefully, keeping my cell phone close. I glanced through the kitchen to the back door (also plexiglass) and saw that the back yard was empty. All the doors were locked, except the outside front door. Confident that the back door was fine, I continued to watch the front door.

The guys continued to talk. Sounded like two of them. The door closed a little, but then opened back up-- almost like they were seriously considering going for the B&E, but weren't quite sure-- and after about a full minutes of this, the door closed. I waited a moment before moving to the back door to make sure they weren't looking for another entrance. I waited there less than a minute before returning to the front door, opening the slats to see outside. The porch was empty. I opened the door and saw two black guys walking down the street, away from our house. I'm pretty confident they were the guys.

I checked the mailbox, the porch, the doorknob-- there's absolutely no chance they were there to drop anything off. Note that they were pretty loud-- they were either angry or drunk. They could have just been drunkenly going into the wrong house or something.

So what would you have done here? I didn't see fit to call the police since they hadn't really done anything. And after they left, what would I have said? "Officer, be on the lookout for two black guys that might be drunk in the middle of St. Louis"? Not a real promising search.

I'm hoping this was just a drunken mix-up, but I'm a little paranoid that they may have been casing.

Once I realized there were actually people out there and it wasn't just a breeze or something, I was pretty sure the place was about to get broken into. With two guys at the door, both probably bigger than me, and with my wife asleep upstairs, I was very quickly brought to red alert. The situation seems fairly 'meh' now, but at the time it was pretty alarming. I just wanted to avoid confrontation if possible, but if they broke in, I wanted to be prepared to stop the situation decisively. Not taking any chances with my wife in the house.

Consensus? Should I have done something differently? What would you have done in my place

NINJA EDIT: In b4 the "kill them all" vid

[mariposa]

I had a guy show up at my door around 2:15 a.m. one morning. I didn't recognize him, and refused to answer it. I watched as he headed towards our cars, grabbed my cellphone and gun. I called 911, gave them a description and the direction he was heading. I let them know he had something in his hand, but I couldn't tell what it was. The police caught him, and it turned out that I'd seen the light-colored nozzle of a gas can. Like you, I didn't want confrontation, but wanted to be prepared to defend myself and my sleeping daughter if he got in.

[oldsoldier]

Uninvited guests should be met by the PD. I would have dialed 911 first-even if its someone you knew, better safe than sorry. Kinda covers your ass too. If you already called the cops, then they attempt to break in, and you are forced into a situation where you are defending yourself, you stand a better chance defending yourself in court.

[elricfate]

Uninvited guests should be met by the PD. I would have dialed 911 first-even if its someone you knew, better safe than sorry. Kinda covers your ass too. If you already called the cops, then they attempt to break in, and you are forced into a situation where you are defending yourself, you stand a better chance defending yourself in court.

"Are they breaking into the home?" "No." "I'll send a cruiser over right away." *15 minutes and two other stacked calls later a cruiser pulls up, well after everything has or has not happened*


Having said that, I think you did fine. You didn't engage, you didn't jump the gun, so to speak. You were alert and prepared for a home invasion, and if no home invasion took place, no skin off your nose because they had no idea.

I think one thing you could have done was to flick the porch lights just so they knew someone was up and aware, but that's just me. I like to be proactive in situations like that, not show weakness, et cetera.

[maldon007]

Uninvited guests should be met by the PD. I would have dialed 911 first-even if its someone you knew, better safe than sorry. Kinda covers your ass too. If you already called the cops, then they attempt to break in, and you are forced into a situation where you are defending yourself, you stand a better chance defending yourself in court.

This, plus everything else you did = perfect, imo.

[Regular Guy]

Personally, I wouldn't have opened the door, just ask for a police cruiser to do a drive by.

[elricfate]

Personally, I wouldn't have opened the door, just ask for a police cruiser to do a drive by.

He didn't open the door.

[the_alias]

Uninvited guests should be met by the PD. I would have dialed 911 first-even if its someone you knew, better safe than sorry. Kinda covers your ass too. If you already called the cops, then they attempt to break in, and you are forced into a situation where you are defending yourself, you stand a better chance defending yourself in court.

Calling the police seems incredibly over the top for such an incident.

I don't buy your argument it will look 'better' in court. If someone was genuinely panicked - adrenalin pumping and is intently focused on the door and doesn't call 911 I fail to see why this would be held against them.

You can easily present an argument and in fact it could be a reality that calling the police was the last thing on your mind until the immediate threat had lessened. Two guys outside the door testing it to break in = a pretty serious and imminent threat.

Tribunal - I think you did everything right.

[nathat]

I would report it now even, just incase something happens in the future there is a prior event recorded. I think the fact the TV was on is what stopped them (seeing a tv on makes one assume someone is up). Like I tell my wife, you have the "uh oh" feelings for a reason. There is never a reason to think they are stupid to have, and you should always listen to them. Our insticts are there to protect us, and to ignore them to try and be "logical" is silly and dangerous.

[Regular Guy]

Personally, I wouldn't have opened the door, just ask for a police cruiser to do a drive by.

He didn't open the door.

Oh, I thought I read he did. Well, good, did everything right then.

[lokifz1]

Definately call the Police while they were at your door. That is one fo the things the Police are for. Stay on the line with the dispatcher.

I would much rather have someone call while the people are at the door then 30 minutes later after they have thought about it for awhile, or called thier Husband/Boyfriend to drive home (45minutes) and then wait 30 minutes and call.

If they are criminals the local Police can contact them, and if they are just so drunk they are going to the doors of random houses you just might save thier lives.

[oldsoldier]

I have to speak for my own situation, and go according to the laws of my state. Someone on my porch at 4 AM, cops get called first. If they ask if someone is breaking in, tell them yes. It varies from state to state, but, in MA, breaking & entering is defined as entering a dwelling, by force, at night, that is not yours. Force is implied, when you open a door, window, etc-even if it is unlocked. Now, laws like this do differ-but, being on your porch, uninvited, at 4 AM, would likely constitute B&E. Worst case, they get there quick, to find two guys who are lost (a similar incident happened where I used to live, when I was like 6-some drunk wandered into our home, and slept on the couch. I found him the next morning, passed out. Cops were called, he was arrested for B&E-and, our doors werent locked. Mind you, this was 1976...). Best case, you get some bad people off the street.
Even though I live in a state where they pretty much handicap us against defending ourselves, I still keep my shotgun close at hand, at night. But, that wouldnt change my scenario. Someone on my porch, that late/early, that I dont know, is one of two things: lost & drunk, or a criminal. Not for me to decide. Cops can hash that out. If they gained access to my house, thats what the shotgun is for. But, at least the cops are on the way. Situation dependent though. I live in a small, close knit community. And, far enough from downtown, that I wouldnt need to worry about wandering drunks. Cops respond pretty quick where I live. They can sort it out-thats their job.

[oldsoldier]

Uninvited guests should be met by the PD. I would have dialed 911 first-even if its someone you knew, better safe than sorry. Kinda covers your ass too. If you already called the cops, then they attempt to break in, and you are forced into a situation where you are defending yourself, you stand a better chance defending yourself in court.

Calling the police seems incredibly over the top for such an incident.

I don't buy your argument it will look 'better' in court. If someone was genuinely panicked - adrenalin pumping and is intently focused on the door and doesn't call 911 I fail to see why this would be held against them.

You can easily present an argument and in fact it could be a reality that calling the police was the last thing on your mind until the immediate threat had lessened. Two guys outside the door testing it to break in = a pretty serious and imminent threat.

Tribunal - I think you did everything right.

Alias, its sad, but true-this state is backwards when it comes to this. I will not go into politics, but we had an incident a few years ago, where a mental patient attacked a public worker with a knife, in a hospital. He was stabbing her repeatedly. An off duty security guard was there, and was armed. He shot & killed the bad guy. This was drawn out over a couple years-and the thing that REPEATEDLY came up in court was, why werent the cops called first? Now, to your average person, the answer is simple-he saved her life. Waiting for them to show up, she surely would have died. But, THAT is the mindset of this state. Granted, its an extreme point to make, but, the precedent was set long ago. He was eventually acquitted of manslaughter-but, well, you can see why I made the statement I did.

[Braxton]

You did the right thing. Calling the cops while they where on the porch would have been a good touch, but knowing STL it would have been 20 mins before the police showed up.

Personally I would have yelled at them through the door, while standing off to the side. A simple Get the Fuck off my lawn would have scared the hell out of them.

[raptor]

My state has very strong Castle Doctrine laws. Trespassing outside is grounds to confront the intruder with a visible display of weapons (i.e It is not brandishing to have a drawn weapon when confronting a trespasser). Being on a front porch is trespassing. The act of unauthorized intruding into a locked house is lawful grounds for lethal force in my state (assuming you are inside the house).

That said this is IMO the best answer. If they were non-hostile the life you save may be theirs. If they are hostile the call is recorded which is CYA insurance for you.

Definately call the Police while they were at your door. That is one fo the things the Police are for. Stay on the line with the dispatcher.

I would much rather have someone call while the people are at the door then 30 minutes later after they have thought about it for awhile, or called thier Husband/Boyfriend to drive home (45minutes) and then wait 30 minutes and call.

If they are criminals the local Police can contact them, and if they are just so drunk they are going to the doors of random houses you just might save thier lives.

[ZombieGranny]

One thing, please get a lock for the outer door.

[jamoni]

The only thing I would have done differently is something I've already done: Get some big loud dogs.
One of mine likes to run straight at the door, scrabbling on the hardwood floors, and slam into it, while barking like a dog twice his size. It's AWESOME.

[J.C.]

I'd definitely call 911 and keep them on the line. Once they break-in you will not have an opportunity to do that. If forced to defend yourself I think the tape is more likely to support your story than any lies they make up (e.g. hear the door being forced). If you are hurt/incapacitated at least you know help is on your way and your family has a better chance.

[DialM]

Assuming my dogs hadn't gone nuts by then, I would have quietly whistled for them and they would have, um, presented themselves at the front door. Assuming you had no dogs, I would have turned on a light, waited for a reaction, then yelled, "who is there?"

[JRJ]

I have had 2 encounters in the last few months.

First time It is about 2am. I hear the sound of the door handle moving. I get deathly still and do the WTF face. Grab the Glock 19, hit the lights on the porch and open the door. NOTHING. I shut the door and check the spare room and bathroom that's when I notice the door to my kids room moving. I set the pistol down and slowly open the door. My daughter was too scared to open the door all the way to see if anyone was still in the living room. 5 year olds. LOL.

2nd time, roughly same time. I hear someone walk up the deck and hear the screen door open, No nock. I grab the trusty glock and hit the light and quickly open the door. I see two terrified teens looking up at me. I kept the pistol on the other side of the wall. Car broke down, no cell reception. I threw on some clothes and let em use my phone.

I aggressively defend my house and property.

[Tribunal Power]

The only thing I would have done differently is something I've already done: Get some big loud dogs.
One of mine likes to run straight at the door, scrabbling on the hardwood floors, and slam into it, while barking like a dog twice his size. It's AWESOME.

You'll never believe this-- my brother has two great danes, and they bark at absolutely everything. Walk past their room to go to the can? Cat bumps into the door? Squirrel farts down the street? They go insane. But this time? Not a damn peep. Stupid dogs.

I didn't call the police because I wanted my full attention on the door. I didn't think calling the cops would help much; they'd get here ten minutes later and either find absolutely nothing, or two downed bad guys (at which point I would have called them immediately anyway). The thought of staying on the line with dispatch didn't cross my mind, but it still sounds like a distraction to me at a time where I really need to be focused.

As far as yelling at them or displaying my weapon... The way I see it, either they are a threat to my life or they aren't. I see yelling at them as a form of escalation-- all it does is give them a chance to strike first if they're armed, or piss them off. I am NOT an intimidating guy. Maybe I'd say "stop" or something, but I don't know. Having never been in a lethal force situation, I can't say with certainty what I would do. Either I'm justified and I stop the threat, or I am not justified and I do not confront. Does that make sense?

Thanks for the response to this. I sorta felt like I was way overreacting after the fact, but I'm glad others would have reacted similarly.

[jamoni]

I'd work with the dogs, train them to bark when the door or windows are messed with. It can be done pretty easily.
As for escalating, it's your house, and STL has castle doctrine. They have no right to be there, and you do.
Here's a good tip: Answer the door like Mr. Robinson.
http://www.savemefromboredom.com/4image ... age_id=235

[maldon007]

If you thought you needed to focus on the situation, and not bother with a phone, than you 100% did it right... As far as far as going outside... huh? (not at you)

Go outside and lose the advantage of cover... surprise... concrete legal grounds... distraction of a change in lighting, that otherwise would be THEIR disadvantage, if they had come in... And to gain, what? You certainly did that right, without question.

One other point, why show your hand, you know? If these guys are gonna do bad, let them/kill them... don't show them you have a nice gun to steal... if they come back later, with more numbers/weapons... when you may be elsewhere & the brother is sleeping.

[ThePhuckStopsHere]

I've been in this situation , more than once and it's always tenuous . I modified my habits several years ago and make sure my door is always dead bolted and the handle is locked . Plus I have a chain at the top. My mail slot is actually in my door so I have no problems with my mail being stolen like a few of the neighbors have had done to them . I had to mace a guy through the mail slot once , he was trying to get in so I flipped the flap open and waited for him to show his face and blasted him . I also put a lock on the screen door , I can confidently keep just about anyone out of the house long enough for authorities to arrive