when do you say f*ck it?

[Regular Guy]

Just re-read my post and realized I sound like a sanctimonius anti-military jerk. I'm really not, I loved my time in the military, just think people need to do a sanity check on some things.

Cheers.

In our military one of our general orders for the enlisted is to man your post until relieved or otherwised ordered to leave your post. It's not a matter of manning empty structures, it's a matter of duty. You're ordered to do so. And yes, if fact, you are to forego your family to do your duty. People are ordered to do it all the time. Right now, at this minute, in fact.
I've known folks that were ordered to guard "unmanned/no missile" missile silos, so yes, you can and may be ordered to man a seemingly useless facility. Even if no one comes to relieve them from their post they are to man that post.

It's not macho, it's duties. It's not internet bravado, it's called following orders.

Let's take this down a dark path a say there has been a massive nuclear exchange coupled with the profuse use of a biological weapon that takes out the majority of the world population. IMO, you should still man your post even if there is no communication other than "the world has been destroyed, 99% of the population has died." If you are manning a post that has not been effected, you should still stay there because they are going to try to rally forces or you should try to. A reasonable amount of time should be respected and then you should make every attempt to maintain your post before abandoning it to seek out a higher authority. I'm not a PAW kinda guy but if there was one I would make it my mission to maintain liberty, justice and security. Likewise, I'd make every effort to get together with like minded folks including and foremost my chain of command.

That's how I roll, YMMV.

[Regular Guy]

Just in case someone is foggy on the enlisted oath, I offer it for your review.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

Quite clear. Furthermore, I offer this:

The Eleven General Orders of a Sentry
The Eleven General Orders are common to all branches of the U.S. Armed Forces. It is best to learn these BEFORE boot camp: you will be expected to know these by heart, in any order, after a few weeks in basic training!

1. To take charge of this post and all government property in view.
2. To walk my post in a military manner, keeping always on the alert, and observing everything that takes place within sight or hearing.
3. To report all violations of orders I am instructed to enforce.
4. To repeat all calls from posts more distant from the guard house than my own.
5. To quit my post only when properly relieved.
6. To receive, obey, and pass on to the sentry who relieves me all orders from the commanding officer, field officer of the day, officer of the day, and officers and petty officers of the watch.
7. To talk to no one except in line of duty.
8. To give the alarm in case of fire or disorder.
9. To call the petty officer of the watch in any case not covered by instructions.
10. To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased.
11. To be especially watchful at night, and during the time for challenging, to challenge all persons on or near my post, and to allow no one to pass without proper authority.

[HKTackDriver]

To the OP:
Read the first 50 pages of The Stand. You're fucked anyway. Captain Trips has you dead in 19 days.

But as far as "defend the base or scoop and run with my family?" I think securing your family is an immediate concern. They'll be dead if you don't, then what are you living for? Not saying I'd go AWOL, but really, how could you live with yourself knowing they may have been saved by you? Assuming your family lives within 15 miles of the base, go get them and bring them back to the base. I'm sure accomodations would be made for families relatively quickly.

[Hollis]

Being a has been active duty Marine, the answer is simple. You do not desert your post.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I'd bring up the chain of command issue:

If your comm is down, and you have waited a reasonable time and have no contact with a senior servicemember, YOU ARE THE SENIOR MAN. You now hold the burden of attempting to fall back to a supplementary position, unless your post is being threatened, then you defend until you are forced to fall back. This has happened very often, and is why the Marine Corps stresses leadership mindsets at the lowest level. I submit to you article 9, "Call the [COG, POW, etc.] in any case not covered by instructions." To me that says seek out a higher echelon of command to receive new orders. I've seen Marines nearly abandoned by bad command (officer and enlisted command) and under no circumstances would I maintain that SNM is required to man that post until SNM dies of hunger/exposure/zombie bite. Your posts should have a posted "No Comm Plan" that tells you what to do should comm be lost for XXX hours. In ther words, you don't bug out until you have followed your orders to resolution.

[alphastar]

Just re-read my post and realized I sound like a sanctimonius anti-military jerk. I'm really not, I loved my time in the military, just think people need to do a sanity check on some things.

Cheers.

In our military one of our general orders for the enlisted is to man your post until relieved or otherwised ordered to leave your post. It's not a matter of manning empty structures, it's a matter of duty. You're ordered to do so. And yes, if fact, you are to forego your family to do your duty. People are ordered to do it all the time. Right now, at this minute, in fact.
I've known folks that were ordered to guard "unmanned/no missile" missile silos, so yes, you can and may be ordered to man a seemingly useless facility. Even if no one comes to relieve them from their post they are to man that post.

It's not macho, it's duties. It's not internet bravado, it's called following orders.

Let's take this down a dark path a say there has been a massive nuclear exchange coupled with the profuse use of a biological weapon that takes out the majority of the world population. IMO, you should still man your post even if there is no communication other than "the world has been destroyed, 99% of the population has died." If you are manning a post that has not been effected, you should still stay there because they are going to try to rally forces or you should try to. A reasonable amount of time should be respected and then you should make every attempt to maintain your post before abandoning it to seek out a higher authority. I'm not a PAW kinda guy but if there was one I would make it my mission to maintain liberty, justice and security. Likewise, I'd make every effort to get together with like minded folks including and foremost my chain of command.

That's how I roll, YMMV.

Just to clarify my point of view. People are asked to forego family in a non PAW situation all the time. Correct, and no issues with it whatsoever.

Now let me put a different scenario before you:


You're the last person stationed at a base, have intel that within 15 minutes the base will be attacked by [pick your stereotypical assailant].
You receive a call/radio/sms/smoke signal from your wife saying she's been hurt [roof caved in, tree fell, whatever], and is trapped and bleeding [for the sake of the scenario, it is serious enough that she will die without help, but you have sufficient first-aid knowledge to save her].
It will take you 15 minutes to get to her. There is no-one else available to go help her.

Do you still think it's preferable to remain at your post?

[Regular Guy]

Just re-read my post and realized I sound like a sanctimonius anti-military jerk. I'm really not, I loved my time in the military, just think people need to do a sanity check on some things.

Cheers.

In our military one of our general orders for the enlisted is to man your post until relieved or otherwised ordered to leave your post. It's not a matter of manning empty structures, it's a matter of duty. You're ordered to do so. And yes, if fact, you are to forego your family to do your duty. People are ordered to do it all the time. Right now, at this minute, in fact.
I've known folks that were ordered to guard "unmanned/no missile" missile silos, so yes, you can and may be ordered to man a seemingly useless facility. Even if no one comes to relieve them from their post they are to man that post.

It's not macho, it's duties. It's not internet bravado, it's called following orders.

Let's take this down a dark path a say there has been a massive nuclear exchange coupled with the profuse use of a biological weapon that takes out the majority of the world population. IMO, you should still man your post even if there is no communication other than "the world has been destroyed, 99% of the population has died." If you are manning a post that has not been effected, you should still stay there because they are going to try to rally forces or you should try to. A reasonable amount of time should be respected and then you should make every attempt to maintain your post before abandoning it to seek out a higher authority. I'm not a PAW kinda guy but if there was one I would make it my mission to maintain liberty, justice and security. Likewise, I'd make every effort to get together with like minded folks including and foremost my chain of command.

That's how I roll, YMMV.

Just to clarify my point of view. People are asked to forego family in a non PAW situation all the time. Correct, and no issues with it whatsoever.

Now let me put a different scenario before you:


You're the last person stationed at a base, have intel that within 15 minutes the base will be attacked by [pick your stereotypical assailant].
You receive a call/radio/sms/smoke signal from your wife saying she's been hurt [roof caved in, tree fell, whatever], and is trapped and bleeding [for the sake of the scenario, it is serious enough that she will die without help, but you have sufficient first-aid knowledge to save her].
It will take you 15 minutes to get to her. There is no-one else available to go help her.

Do you still think it's preferable to remain at your post?

5. To quit my post only when properly relieved.

These aren't my rules, but they are the rules.

I not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of duty. If there is an imminent attack, yeah, you better defend that post. I'd like to see you explain that. Yeah, these doods were coming to attack but my wife was dying so I left. You'd go to jail under the UCMJ. However, you're not expected to die to defend your post however, just leaving is a no go. A tactical fall back would be prudent. If that fall back is in the direction of your wife.....No one expects you to defend an entire base by yourself, that's stupid. Real life rarely mimics Hollywood type scenerios.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm

However, that scenerio would never happen.

[alphastar]

However, that scenerio would never happen.

Hmmm...we're discussing PAW situations...if we're discussing a hypothetical PAW, I'd say the scenario is just as likely

Be that as it may, given a choice between staying out of prison to defend a building, or going to prison to save my wife's life...

I'd demolish the damn building myself and turn the prison door key to boot.

My wife's life would trump prison time, or even death, every time.

[Regular Guy]

However, that scenerio would never happen.

Hmmm...we're discussing PAW situations...if we're discussing a hypothetical PAW, I'd say the scenario is just as likely

Be that as it may, given a choice between staying out of prison to defend a building, or going to prison to save my wife's life...

I'd demolish the damn building myself and turn the prison door key to boot.

My wife's life would trump prison time, or even death, every time.

Well, you have no business in the military then. Right now, the US is in two active wars were soldiers are dying in quasi-PAW areas (Afghanistan). So, by your justification those in harms way would be excused from the battle field if their loved ones at home were in dire need. That is absurd and horrible for moral. IF every soldier were to leave the battle field because they had a personal need and of their own accord, no matter how extreme or trivial, EVERY SOLDIER WOULD LEAVE THE BATTLE FIELD.
Don't join the military unless you are prepared to for some trival and great self sacrifice. You obviously can't see the bigger picture and the military is not for you. It's not for everyone. But don't sit there behind a keyboard passing judgement, that's just fucking lame.

[alphastar]

I think you're misreading something.

We're not talking about current battlefield conditions. We're talking PAW. No Government, or complete breakdown of it, so on and so forth.
In current times, you can always call someone for help, not in a PAW.

Completely different situations.

Lastly, you don't know me. I've been courteous in my responses, so don't pass judgement on me.
I know I've been in the military and followed every order I was given. And I also know what I would do if the chain of command was broken beyond repair and the choices were left to me.

As for you, I don't even know if you've actually been in the military or if you're just another militaristic wanna be with easy access to an army surplus and a few guns bought at target.
So who's passing judgement?

[squinty]

In current times, you can always call someone for help.

Can you? Always?
Let's leave the personal attacks and name calling out of the discussion. We all have different answers to "when do you say F**K IT?" and we know we won't agree with every poster's answer.

Personally, I said "F**K IT" years ago, so sorry but the rest of you are on your own. You'll have to get by without me.

[Regular Guy]

I think you're misreading something.

We're not talking about current battlefield conditions. We're talking PAW. No Government, or complete breakdown of it, so on and so forth.
In current times, you can always call someone for help, not in a PAW.

Completely different situations.

Lastly, you don't know me. I've been courteous in my responses, so don't pass judgement on me.
I know I've been in the military and followed every order I was given. And I also know what I would do if the chain of command was broken beyond repair and the choices were left to me.

As for you, I don't even know if you've actually been in the military or if you're just another militaristic wanna be with easy access to an army surplus and a few guns bought at target.
So who's passing judgement?

The oath says NOTHING ABOUT CONDITIONS. Nope, not a word. What it does say is you will man your post until relieved. Full stop. If the chain of command is broken, the last orders you were given are your orders. A govt. of the people, for the people, means that WE are the govt. So when govt. is gone, YOU are the govt. You are expected to pick up the constitution and replace govt. so that liberty, freedom and justice will return and be preserved.

"As for you, I don't even know if you've actually been in the military or if you're just another militaristic wanna be with easy access to an army surplus and a few guns bought at target.
So who's passing judgement?"

Yes, that's me to a tee. Perfect description. I'm pure mall ninja Please stop with veiled insults. It's lame. I said that because you are saying that if certain conditions occur, you can unass yourself for your post. No, not ever.

[Hollis]

Regular guy, there is a expression for those who understand, you don't need to explain it to them. To those who can not understand, you can not explain it to them.

I don't care what they will do or think, it is their call. As I mentioned, the answer is simple NO. They can argue all they want. Their call. As with all of us, we are responsible for our actions, sadly we don't always feel the consequences of our action, some times some other person does.

I think there is a deeper aspect to this question, what will you do to survive? Staying at one's post could mean dieing there. "So what will you do to survive?" is the root of this question.

To be clear, no one has to agree with me, nor does anyone needs me to validate their opinion.

[Regular Guy]

Regular guy, there is a expression for those who understand, you don't need to explain it to them. To those who can not understand, you can not explain it to them.

I don't care what they will do or think, it is their call. As I mentioned, the answer is simple NO. They can argue all they want. Their call. As with all of us, we are responsible for our actions, sadly we don't always feel the consequences of our action, some times some other person does.

I think there is a deeper aspect to this question, what will you do to survive? Staying at one's post could mean dieing there. "So what will you do to survive?" is the root of this question.

To be clear, no one has to agree with me, nor does anyone needs me to validate their opinion.

I hear you man. Well, IMO the .mil does a great job of preparation. I remember seeing warehouses full of clothes, MREs and gear just in case we are cut off and need to fend for ourselves.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Only if you have the right forms submitted to the S-4 in advance!

[ShannonB]

.....snip.....
...... If the chain of command is broken, the last orders you were given are your orders. A govt. of the people, for the people, means that WE are the govt. So when govt. is gone, YOU are the govt. You are expected to pick up the constitution and replace govt. so that liberty, freedom and justice will return and be preserved....

Im just jumping in here after reading the whole thread.

As the wife of a former enlisted Marine, I understand, his duty and oath. AND I expect him to uphold it to the fullest degree of his ability. I hope that being married to him has given me the strength, knowledge and ability to survive without him, if the time ever arose. I would lay down my life for him and him for me, but we'd both haunt the other if they did it!

All of that being said, if your chain of command is broken, I would expect you NOT to stand at a post with your thumb up your ass waiting on some one (who may or may NOT even exist) to come relieve (or save) you. Period. Forward thinking. Find the next chain of command. Dont come home unless there are NO other options..... But get home to me safe and sound, as soon as possible. We will be waiting for you.

[Regular Guy]

.....snip.....
...... If the chain of command is broken, the last orders you were given are your orders. A govt. of the people, for the people, means that WE are the govt. So when govt. is gone, YOU are the govt. You are expected to pick up the constitution and replace govt. so that liberty, freedom and justice will return and be preserved....

Im just jumping in here after reading the whole thread.

As the wife of a former enlisted Marine, I understand, his duty and oath. AND I expect him to uphold it to the fullest degree of his ability. I hope that being married to him has given me the strength, knowledge and ability to survive without him, if the time ever arose. I would lay down my life for him and him for me, but we'd both haunt the other if they did it!

All of that being said, if your chain of command is broken, I would expect you NOT to stand at a post with your thumb up your ass waiting on some one (who may or may NOT even exist) to come relieve (or save) you. Period. Forward thinking. Find the next chain of command. Dont come home unless there are NO other options..... But get home to me safe and sound, as soon as possible. We will be waiting for you.

Of course your suppose to contact the next chain of command however that particular scenerio stated that your wife was dying and you were under threat of imminent attack.

However, I respectfully disagree with manning your post being standing around with your thumb up your ass. It's following orders. What may appear to be a hopeless situtation may just be lull in the action. I do agree that if it appears you have lost your chain of command contact the next chain however this can be accomplished without leaving your post.

[ShannonB]

RG - I menat no disrespect inregards to your post with the "thumb up your ass" comment, it was just a generalization of the thread regarding some of the other comments by people saying they just stand in one spot till told to do something else.

I was merely stating that as a wife, I stand by my husband's oath and responsibilty, no matter what. I am just going to slowly back out of this thread.

[Hollis]

RG - I menat no disrespect inregards to your post with the "thumb up your ass" comment, it was just a generalization of the thread regarding some of the other comments by people saying they just stand in one spot till told to do something else.

I was merely stating that as a wife, I stand by my husband's oath and responsibilty, no matter what. I am just going to slowly back out of this thread.

You are GTG, A old expression, "If you think it is hard being a Marine, try being a Marines' wife'. Wish you and your hubby the best.

I'll now go back to standing in my spot till properly relieved.


Semper Fi.

[Regular Guy]

RG - I menat no disrespect inregards to your post with the "thumb up your ass" comment, it was just a generalization of the thread regarding some of the other comments by people saying they just stand in one spot till told to do something else.

I was merely stating that as a wife, I stand by my husband's oath and responsibilty, no matter what. I am just going to slowly back out of this thread.

No worries. Thanks for being the wife of a Marine, that's never an easy job.

[airmandan]

Just a bump here. Want to see if there are any new takes on this HYPOTHETICAL situation

[TDW586]

I'd bring up the chain of command issue:

If your comm is down, and you have waited a reasonable time and have no contact with a senior servicemember, YOU ARE THE SENIOR MAN. You now hold the burden of attempting to fall back to a supplementary position, unless your post is being threatened, then you defend until you are forced to fall back. This has happened very often, and is why the Marine Corps stresses leadership mindsets at the lowest level. I submit to you article 9, "Call the [COG, POW, etc.] in any case not covered by instructions." To me that says seek out a higher echelon of command to receive new orders. I've seen Marines nearly abandoned by bad command (officer and enlisted command) and under no circumstances would I maintain that SNM is required to man that post until SNM dies of hunger/exposure/zombie bite. Your posts should have a posted "No Comm Plan" that tells you what to do should comm be lost for XXX hours. In ther words, you don't bug out until you have followed your orders to resolution.

Just wanted to quote this for truth. Staying on your post until properly relieved can be satisfied by following post procedures for abandoning post; in the absence of written procedures, when you have no contact with higher headquarters, common sense will have to prevail and it is at your discretion.

Just remember you may be looking at a courts martial if your common sense fails you.

[DarkScythe]

Do what you have to do.

Family is way more important you only get one.

[Hollis]

Do what you have to do.

Family is way more important you only get one.

Family is important, but if a person does not understand the requirement of the job and what it may require, then it is very simple, do not take the job. Part of the job is protecting all families not just one's own.

And after it is all said and done and law returns, don't whine about the court martial or prison time or what ever the punishment will be. Today's Military is personal choice. It is not a choice for everyone nor something everyone can do. So the best suggestion if a person is going to want to run their own show, "Do what you have to do." Then do not enlist.