The Myth of "The Grey Man"

[raptor]

No looting in Japan?
WUT?!???

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703410604576216293024644156.html

http://www.suntimes.com/news/steinberg/4421028-452/but-there-was-looting-in-japan.html

Yes there was looting in Japan...

Quote from the WSJ article... "Most of the looting incidents appear to target necessities in tight supply after the disaster, such as food and gasoline, rather than durable goods."

This is not the looting we saw on TV following Katrina.

Keep in mind this is the country that was tight lipped about having a nuclear meltdown in order to save face.
I'm sure it was more widespread than we were led to believe.

People are fairly consistent all around the world. Greed is hardwired into the human brain. That said, looting in Japan is not the subject of this thread. Please lest stay on topic.



Getting back on topic the concept of being a Gray Man is IMO a misunderstood concept. It is not literally about being gray so much as being aware of your surroundings and trying to blend in with them.

There are many risks that a person can face. IMO the biggest risk with the highest probability of occurring is a major but relatively short term SHTF situation. A major natural disaster. In these situations the prepper faces several risks. Not the least being LEO/NG/vigilantes who are looking to control events or chase the problem out of their area. The other risk obviously are other bad players who seek your property.

IMO the Gray Man routine works in this scenario more with the LEO/NG/vigilante groups than with the bad players. I have said a lot that walking around in such a zone openly brandishing weapons is asking for negative attention. In such a situation I think the Gray Man route is useful.

That said as the OP said when the S has Truly Hit the Fan (i.e. a riot, gun fight, insert active violent activity here...), IMO at that point it does not matter what you look like. In fact looking gray can actually attract bad players attention since being gray can (depending up on circumstances) make you look vulnerable.


BTW an excellent discussion thus far. Please lets keep it that way.

[ninja-elbow]

Hunh, I posted in this thread yesterday and it got ate.

Boiled down, I said:
Why limit yourself? Also, it's not about gear but attitude and knowledge. A blue jacket and grey stocking cap will not make much of a difference but how you act will.

ETA: Personally, I just like a good blue checkered or plaid shirt

[........]

Quote from the WSJ article... "Most of the looting incidents appear to target necessities in tight supply after the disaster, such as food and gasoline, rather than durable goods."

It's the truth. Every society is different. Just like when rioting broke out in Egypt and people formed a human chain around the museums to keep looters out. My academic side got all mushy for that. History is all we have.

Katrina

I concur with Necrodamus.

The often missed part of the reporting was many of those people stole a TV to offer it as payment to get out of the city. If you're stuck in a city thats underwater with no electricity because you couldn't afford to leave and your home may or may not be there what good is a TV? This conforms to our way of thinking, use of barter goods. That's not to say there were not idiots (see the Katrina thread) but there's a reason that the media's sensationalism (rape in the superdome) and selective use of facts (TV loot, not TV get me the hell out of here) got the tinfoil is broken out. Relevent to our over all discussion, as preppers, in any disaster the media is going to be just as much of a problem (bad info) as a benefit (good info). Relevent to our discussion on this thread, you may be grey and you may be leaving where ever but if the media's made it look like a swarm of rioting needy refugees are coming you might find your self blocked even if you're out front and entering a community before the rest.

That said, my friends in LA (and one is a prepper) needs entirely different strategy than my friends in Cheyenne.

YES!!

For those in non urban areas, I am not sure how legit this whole concept of "grey" is. That said, in rural areas, my urban friends may be surprised how alert and aware that something is not "right" per se' in their environment.

YES!! And every one knows you don't belong there.

Every one out there knows every one else. Side note: this is why I think you don't see looting, because urban areas provide a level of anonymity, that rural areas do not. Urban folks aren't bad and rural folks good. People are people. Spent a good amount of time talking with LEOs in Northern Minnesota who told me they have just as many problems as LEOs in Minneapolis. Difference is density spreads it out and the reporting makes people look saner. One problem trades off for another. You might not have as many robberies (John Doe knows who you are) you have more burglaries (vacation homes or you know when John Doe is home and not home). Anonymity.

so he lobbed on his track suit from the gym and wandered out to join the howling packs of youths.

I did the same thing once. Got stuck with some folks I did not want to be with, they said the cops were after them, and they were high (makes BSing easier). When I said "hey man, I don't want no trouble" they wanted to do me harm. When I cursed them up and down, acted more intimidating, and said the cops were after me they accept me as one of thier own and took me along with them. Not some dark alley, just followed my new "friends" until I could ditch them.

[DannusMaximus]

If i am bugging out in a SHTF, complete breakdown of society, I will probably not fit into this crowd on zs. I will not be mall ninja nor will I be The North Face yuppie hiker.

Or, alternatively.



Try not to injure yourself by being so much cooler than everybody else on this website...

[Rugger]

1. Grey Man style/technique is determined by whose attention you are trying to avoid.
2. Non-threatening enough to avoid attention of those further up the food chain, but confident enough to discourage the swarm of those further down the chain.
3. This "look" will most likely need to change according to who's looking at you, plan accordingly. In other words, leave room in your bag.

I'm with Prepared American on this. IMO, Grey Man is more for avoiding attention of LEO's during a period of unrest. Not because you are doing anything illegal, but because they could take away your means of self defense. The blue jeans, ball cap, and untucked shirt is good, with ninja vest and stowed/broken down AR in the bag.

[Wildeman_13]

Hunh, I posted in this thread yesterday and it got ate.

Boiled down, I said:
Why limit yourself? Also, it's not about gear but attitude and knowledge. A blue jacket and grey stocking cap will not make much of a difference but how you act will.

ETA: Personally, I just like a good blue checkered or plaid shirt

A dark blue plaid jacket blends in marvelously at night with dark alleys and such. It makes a pretty good night time urban camouflage.

[Bad Penny 08]

During a disaster a random LE (that doesn't have bigger fish to fry at the time) might tend to pull you aside and ask you the typical "do you have any weapons concealed on your person?," "can I see your I.D.?," "where are you headed?" kind of questions you might get on a traffic stop just to feel you out.
Chances are if firearms are a concern, everyone will be under scrutiny. Equally.

Casual dress didn't save Katrina residents from gun confiscation, right?

Also, if you're in an area that is being evacuated, sectioned off, or under a curfew that maybe you weren't aware of, etc you will draw attention just by being there.
Or maybe if LE has no sense of humor that day and you get the Seattle WTO riot treatment, where a women leaving her office in business attire was headed to her car to drive home got pepper sprayed just for being there.
Looters dress the same as everybody else, so what you're doing, where you're doing it, and how your story holds up to the officers instincts will be more important.
Your attire isn't going to make you invisible to LE and they aren't going to forget the fact you may be, and probably are armed.

Everyone will likely be treated the same in this regard.
So while I agree there is no sense in borrowing trouble, as long as you're not openly carrying a long arm the degree to which it matters is probably insignificant.



In a total societal breakdown without rule of law type deal I'm not even going to care.
I'm wearing whatever is most durable and appropriate for the environment.
If that's BDU type clothing, then so be it.
I don't plan on going anywhere so it's not like it really matters.

People that insist on wandering about will most likely be ambushed and indiscriminately victimized just on GP.

Everyone will be armed, and everyone will be fighting over resources.

People tend to be self organizing in times of disorder and will likely form neighborhood watch type groups of armed people.
There is no way to anticipate how these untrained, scared, tired, stressed out, malnourished people are going to react to your presence. They might have a pleasant disposition that day, or they might be trigger happy idiots.
Militias might be running about and unless you have copies of all their political manifesto's and are familiar with their insignia you might get a friendly reception by a veritable first responder or be shot because of your apparent race or militia affiliation. Who's to say you aren't the "enemy" in disguise?
Who's to say you might not be mistaken for a local MS-13 mob (etc) that has been victimizing the locals, while wearing common folks clothing. Clothing devoid of the usual gang symbols, cuz they are privy to the "grey man" philosophy too?
How do you know the guy in plain clothes or police or military attire isn't actually a freak that caught, killed, and ate the outfits former owner?

For all these reasons I believe having a weapon or pack in plain view during this type of event is irrelevant.
You're likely to be killed just for showing up, regardless of whether or not you ostensibly have anything of value.
People get mugged every day that aren't wearing a Rolex or a Alexander Amosu suit.
Why? Because they were a victim of opportunity.

The best solution is to not be there at all.

[Mr. E. Monkey]

Getting back on topic the concept of being a Gray Man is IMO a misunderstood concept. It is not literally about being gray so much as being aware of your surroundings and trying to blend in with them.

Absolutely. There is no one-size-fits-all grey man.

The OP will, I am certain, be more familiar with the idea than I am, but I think that elements of METT-TC can be helpful in determining the best "grey man" approach in a particular situation. (For those not familiar, METT-TC is a tool for mission analysis and planning, and stands for Mission, Enemy, Terrain and Weather, Troops, Time Available, and Civilian Considerations.)

At the risk of oversimplification, I'll give a broad, generic example of how this could be taken into consideration.

Mission: At its simplest, when bugging out, you want to GTFO. It may be complicated by such things as the kind of disaster, and whether you need to meet up with friends or family along the way.

Enemy: Whether they are wearing hockey masks and chaps, hoodies, or camouflage, for the purpose of bugging out, we can say these are people who want to hurt you and/or take your stuff. Or maybe even zombies, too. How they act, and what their intent is will affect your approach, obviously. Where are they going, and what are they doing?

Terrain and Weather: Clothing that may be "grey" in one area may not be "grey" in another. Also, bugging out of an urban area at night may work for you, yet bugging out of a rural area at night where people own a lot of dogs may not.

Troops: Who do you have with you? What do they have? How will they act in a given situation? Is travelling in a large or small group best in a given situation?

Time Available: Do you have time to wait for an area to calm down, or for a riot to move out of your path? Will you be able to plan or conduct reconnaissance? Or do you have to leave now or never? How long will it take for you to travel through a particular area, and will the threat change, based on that? (Do you risk encountering rioters during the day, or LEOs arresting you for violating curfew at night?)

Civilian Considerations: Are other people bugging out or bugging in? If they are bugging out, where are they going? How are they moving? How are they dressed and equipped? Are they being targeted, and if so, by whom? (In some circumstances, they could be factored in under Enemy, as well--are they "sharing" supplies of more well-prepared refugees?)


Admittedly, it's not perfect, and some factors may or may not apply in any particular situation, but it is one tool that could be helpful in determining the most "grey" approach in some situations.

[flsgear]

Great topic and responses
On the subject of the grey man; I think in it's purest form we're talking about blending in with an indigenous population. I say indigenous because most people basically treat it as if they're going to be transient moving from one neighborhood to another en route to their particular destination (i.e. bugging out). So basically the two groups which seem to be desirous of avoiding are Law Enforcement to avoid seizure of property/hassle. The other group is to avoid hooligans. I don't really feel the riot is necessarily a great analogy simply because ... well.. you gotta be a special kind of stupid to be out chilling in a riot situation. You're either part of it or you're not; and if you're not you need to use reebok kwon do and GTFO. Frankly, if you're getting out avoiding attention helps but if you're getting out in a hurry (that whole didee mao business)then you're going to be less likely to be concerned about being conspicuous versus making time.

I propose the all in one solution for preppers - it cannot possibly fail!

The urban ghille suit!


Seriously tho; blending in with any crowd requires a certain amount of understanding about who you're trying to blend in with. Sliding past a group of criminals on the corner sellin dope to 8 year olds versus speeding in plain sight of a cop knowing that if you look suspicious he will bust you but if you look like meh whatever another day at the office they won't bust you are both two different mindsets. So more important imo is some recon on who you're trying to blend in with. Get some local intel and use that to develop your persona and cultivate it to make you a less likely target. There's also the issue of criminals who directly target people who look weak(er).

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles ... ked-mayhem

"Some of these guys concentrate on people who are easy to overcome," says Volkan Topalli, a psychologist and criminologist at Georgia State University. "They'll target females, they'll target older people, but they're also looking for cues of weakness or fear."

I know I grew up in a very VERY rough neighborhood. I've seen racism from the white guy in a sea of black kids side of the pond and believe me it's just as ugly as anything you've seen. Dealing with it requires a different approach for different groups. Some people you have to act crazy; others you have you just punch in the nose before they do anything, others you have to baffle with logic and try to look nerdy and harmless. There's no one catchall approach. Know your foe, know what you're walking into, and have an appropriate plan for it. With that in mind, in my own preps, I have several different clothing sets/gear for bugging out/in and almost always try to project confidence. In my experience of growing up small, white and nerdy - you get in less fights that way. However, when you do need to get into a fight, you better make sure you hit a LOT harder and that they remember it - because word will spread and people will not want to screw with you. Just don't go out looking for trouble

The victim in the riot effectively painted a bullseye on his chest by first getting beat up, then showing weakness, then not responding in a way that said "continue to screw with me at your own peril".

[Prepared American]

I just

If i am bugging out in a SHTF, complete breakdown of society, I will probably not fit into this crowd on zs. I will not be mall ninja nor will I be The North Face yuppie hiker.

Or, alternatively.



Try not to injure yourself by being so much cooler than everybody else on this website...

It's not just because I am cooler
I will just use what has worked before. Try not to get all but hurt DM just because some of us base our comments on real world experience. I have a lot of experience behind me, but I learn things here all the time. Some things I read I know from experience will not work as planned, however a lot of what I read has merrit. I am not saying that anyone should follow my lead, or 226's lead, if the SHTF ever comes to fruition, you dress how you want and carry what you want, and act how you want, I don't care, but be careful who you try to intimidate, becausenot everyone running around with out a chest rig and the latest gucciflage will be unprepared push overs.

[raptor]

becausenot everyone running around with out a chest rig and the latest gucciflage will be unprepared push overs.

By the same token not everyone dressed like a bum in a wife beater, shorts and carrying a camo shot gun is a bum. This is a LEO. You may not know it but his buddies nearby know it.



I posted this to show the ambiguity of possible situations. That ambiguity may or may not work to your benefit.

[DannusMaximus]

Try not to get all but hurt DM just because some of us base our comments on real world experience.

Well you are correct that 'some of us' do base our comments on real world experience. You might remember that when you're implying that the average member on these forums is a mall ninja or yuppie (which, you may recall, you did). As eleet as you might feel, there are lots of prior service military and emergency services professionals on these boards, and, as a card carrying member of both those subgroups, I've been continually pretty impressed with how FEW mall ninjas or North Face yuppies seem to be involved with ZS. YMMV.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[Prepared American]

DM if i have offended you I appoligize. I did not mean to infer that everyone here is mall ninja nor yuppie. But it seems that their are a lot of threads of people showing off their tactical body armor, chest rigs, multi can whatever's and such. Some times I get a little ahead of myself as i become dissapointed in the fact that their are some good folks with real life experience that people don't like to listen too or will come back and argue with them base their argument on fantasy or in this movie..

So again my sincerist apologies to those I offend.

[DannusMaximus]

DM if i have offended you I appoligize. I did not mean to infer that everyone here is mall ninja nor yuppie. But it seems that their are a lot of threads of people showing off their tactical body armor, chest rigs, multi can whatever's and such. Some times I get a little ahead of myself as i become dissapointed in the fact that their are some good folks with real life experience that people don't like to listen too or will come back and argue with them base their argument on fantasy or in this movie..

So again my sincerist apologies to those I offend.

PM received and replied to. Thanks.

[Dak Kovar]

I agree with the OP in that desperate people WILL do desperate things. Have no need to be desperate with the others and stay the hell away from them when they are. Let them have their fun on their own. If you are not in the AO or not seen if you are then there is no way you will stand out no matter how you are dressed. If you are stumbled upon then have a plan and the means to deal with it if it is a danger (refer now to the 'Accountability' thread). But I guess you could call me a centerist on this one.

Also, I have been following this issue for awhile and have thought about this whole 'grey' issue in terms of the things I read about being behind the lines during WWII. I think there are many good lessons to be learned there, such as how the French Resistance would have to pass nazi checkpoints to get around. They would try to blend in to get by or get around during daylight...unarmed. Then at other times the same people would darken their faces to light fires for OSS LZs at night doing open carry. Not much different than what is being discussed here, IMO. My point is, things can be learned from things that have already been done.

M2C,
DK

.

[Glennbo]

The grey man is not a myth.

It's human nature to pick on anyone who looks different.

[ei8htx]

After reading 3 pages it seriously sounds like everyone here is arguing for the exact same thing.

That said this thread (IMO) is better than the other one.

[Super Kill Guy]

What about the Green Man? Would something so shockingly different deter attack?

[flsgear]

The scary thing is I think the safest way of blending in is absolute repulsion. Dress like Crypto has in some of his pictures and I guaran-damn-tee you'll get less than 5 people (it's a creepy world) who would even consider looking at you, let alone talking.

*edit* the reason for this post was because of the green man post and someone trying to smuggle a few who knows what out in their spandex - on the right

CANNOT BE UNSEEN

[Super Kill Guy]

A little lesson on "Urban Camouflage" courtesy of Woody Thompson.

http://www.youtube.com/user/thesurvival ... SReQau7VwA

[raptor]

A little lesson on "Urban Camouflage" courtesy of Woody Thompson.

http://www.youtube.com/user/thesurvival ... SReQau7VwA

Trash Ghillie suits not withstanding , A review of the tactics used by the French resistance (as mentioned by Dak Kovar) to both hide things and go unnoticed do offer some possible additional hlp in the area.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/th ... 03112.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=OBw4nT ... &q&f=false

[ODA 226]

We recognized Ms.Cornioley over at Professionalsoldiers.com back in 2008. There is a lot to be learned from her experiences and that of the French and Jugoslav Resistance during WWII. When I was a youngster in the 10th Special Forces Group, it was required reading and we read case study after case study on these topics.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/for ... +Cornioley

[Woods Walker]

ODA 226.

This thread is totally unexpected given your past unrelenting support of the entire “Gray Man” concept.

I had two LEO encounters in the last few weeks. The first officer stated I ran a stop sign but in reality he was checking for late night/early morning drunks. He seen my pistol permit and next thing I am out of the truck getting frisked. It almost seemed like a training exercise for his partner but in any case was sent on my way. The next was at a DUI checkpoint and the officer seeing my OD backpack on the seat asked if I was hiking. He guessed right and after hearing that I was told to move along.

Did having a pistol permit or OD backpack draw any extra attention? Hard to say but it was driving late during a holiday weekend that got me pulled over in the first place. Anyone ever experience the fake broken wing trick some birds will play to draw away a nest robber? It’s so irresistible to my hunter’s instincts that even knowing the gig I feel compelled to follow. I believe how someone acts will cause more potentially negative attention than the color of their pack. There is a reason why many people never want to ask for directions when lost.

[ODA 226]

WW:
Running a stop sign doesn't warrant a "Stop and Frisk" aka a "Terry Stop". I would immediately file a complaint with the PD concerned through my attorney. If his excuse was that he was searching for weapons, you showed him your CHP and were therefore carrying legally and if that was the reason for the frisk, you have a 1983 lawsuit. Pursue this and DO NOT let it go!

Two years ago on New Years Eve, I was stopped for the same BS reason. The cop told me I ran a red light. I told him, "The hell I did. You're "fishing" Bubba. Oh, and BTW, I used to wear the "tin" too."

He took my licence and my CHP back to the other two units that arrived for "backup". I heard them laugh and the cop came back smiling and said, "Happy New Year Sir!". Maybe it was WHAT I said, or maybe the WAY I said it, but the cop lost interest in messing with me.

The color of your ruck meant nothing. They were "fishing" to see what your response would be. If you hesitated at all, the next thing he would have asked would be, "Mind if I look in your bag?" and you know well what would have happened if you refused...