Livestock Care AFTER

[kalos72]

So...

The wife and I are looking into the scenario of how you feed your livestock AFTER the SHTF, assuming total self sufficiency. What have you guys come up with in your own scenarios?

[CaptBrainFreeze]

Wheat is pretty simple to grow. However I raise a surplus of feed corn for the chickens for winter time. I worry more about keeping people away from them than feeding them lol.

[phalanx]

It'll vary widely depending on the animal. Which one's did you have in mind?

My ducks will get along great with corn, oats, and barley plus what the forage themselves. If you're planning for a PAW-type scenario, I would choose animals based on a few pieces of information:

1: What resources are available nearby that you can leverage (legally, morally, safely, blah blah blah).
2: What animals and feed your property can currently support and produce.
3: Which animals are the most efficient that fit item #2.

In this sense, "efficiency" refers to the feed:meat ratio. I'm not well versed in these ratios, but I think goats and pigs are very efficient. Anyways, I don't think there will be an answer that fits all the people that plan on raising livestock. There are several threads on raising rabbits, and I did one on ducks, but I haven't really addressed what I'm gonna do if the world collapses. I keep 3-4 months of feed on hand at any given time and that's about it at the moment.

[kalos72]

Thats just it, for those of you that depend on store bought feed, what will you do once your stock runs out assuming your neighbors won't be able to keep up those acres and acres of surplus feed for long.

Assume no store bought...no trading with the neighbor, how will you support your livestock?

[WhoShotJR]

Take this advice with a grain of salt, as I've just started to research it myself. It's a complicated question with a lot of variables (how much land, vegetation, climate, fencing, how well protected, etc) but so far I'm looking at animals that are foragers that can feed themselves for the most part on my land. Goats, chickens, maybe pigs, Dexter cows. Sorry I don't have more to offer, but I will be watching this thread with interest.

[wagdhead]

Good question. One thing to think about is it takes allot of feed for larger animals, so you need to think storage as well as what to grow. We use bunker silage. Our system is a large three sided "bay" built up with railroad ties and sod piled up on the sides with the front side open for access. We cover the silage with heavy plastic. The only real drawback to it besides some critters getting in,is after a few weeks of moisture and the sun cooking the corn, it begins to smell like corn liquor.
You can smell it from half a mile away or more. I keep waiting for Otis Cambell to show up (might be dating myself here).

This is a great article on storage options:
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/DecidingSilo.pdf

[kalos72]

Surely there has to be some farmer/homesteaders that have though this fact through some...lets hope.

[nyiangelo]

Simple.... I will feed my cattle until it's their turn to feed me...... it really depends what animals your talking about. Whether they can graze naturally or your raising rabbits in your backyard. For me as long as the grass is good, then they are getting fed.

[Ad'lan]

So...

The wife and I are looking into the scenario of how you feed your livestock AFTER the SHTF, assuming total self sufficiency. What have you guys come up with in your own scenarios?

If you are totally self sufficient, you won't be buying in feed for your livestock. This is the case for many large farms, and quite a few small ones, as the cost of buying in the feed is more than the production cost.

Our Cattle feeds Pasture, Rolled Grains, Fodder Beet Mash, Fodder Beet and Barley Straw, + a few supplements. That's reasonably typical. We also have made our own hay in the past, but it's more effort than it's worth, so now we just feed it to them after it's cut.

When we had sheep, they ate much the same. Poultry fed on grain and kitchen scraps.

Pasture is your grass land, where you keep your animals. Factory farms and the like will be unsustainable after TSHTF, they need too much infrastructure to support, and are too fragile. Look at traditional farming techniques, because in some places, this is all you need, take your sheep up the mountains in the summer, bring them to the lowlands in the winter is the usual way around, but can vary.

We're a small holding, so the pasture is limited. In Late Spring, all the way through to early Autumn, we have rich grass, so we don't need so many supplements or extra feed, but we still feed them a smaller amount. From October to March though, they will really need extra food to see them through to the spring. As we're a small holding though, we generally buy in all we need, as we only have a dozen head of cattle at most (we have 6 right now, going down to 4 this afternoon, then 6-7 again once our Calves arrive). This means that when TSHTF we should have enough to see them through untill the pasture supports them, and we can gather in more feed for them.

Of course, when the small holding was fully stocked, this Means a Barn stacked to the rafters with barley straw, a feed shed with dozens of different sacks and tubs, and a huge pile of fodder beet that I remember being sky high, but in actuality was only about 8' by 8' by 8'.

Supposing the Barn burns down and there's no more straw? the Feed room gets flooded, and the Fooder Beets go rotten, then, well, thats when you need help if you want to save your herd, small holders should always be part of a community. If there was no one to turn to, no one willing to turn winter wheat into beef futures, or sell me their sugar beet that they can no longer send to be processed, then there's few alternatives. Sheep will eat pine needles (and the bark) if they are hungry, they won't like it, but they'll live. Pigs you can turn loose in woodland to forage, or have them root over your arable fields and eat all the roots if there are any. Cattle, I can't think of any alternative feed I could get without breaking forum rules.

For a Long term SHTF, you'll have to start making your own over winter fodder. In the Old Days almost a 3rd of arable land was for this, due to the amount of horses. Whatever technique you use, you should start learning now. And start putting it into practice now.


Silage is probably the highest quality feed that's reasonably easy to make. You might have seen large piles of plastic bags in fields, or huge piles covered in plastic sheeting. That's silage. It's Fermented feed, preserved by starving it of oxygen. The Bags don't need to be Black, but they should be air tight. The Feed is partially dried, and then chopped up and pressed to remove the air.


Hay is the classic one, but hay making is a real art, and doing it by hand is a lot of work, both in cutting and turning, and you have to depend on the weather. We Mow our Orchard by Machine where we can, but by scythe were we can't.

Straw is surprisingly good fodder for bulk calories, but won't do on it's own, lacking protein and minerals. Oat Straw is the best, followed by Barley, followed by Wheat. Fortunately, the farm is in Norfolk, surrounded by arable farms.

Rolled Grains will almost certainly be reserved for People food, rather than animal feed, unless we have vast surplus.


Fodder Beet looks something like a Turnip, about the size of your head, and is also known as the Mangelwurzel (yes, that's where the Wurzel's get their name. Now you know). It's related to beetroot, is edible by humans if you must, and very, very good animal feed. It's potash hungry though, and can deplete the soil quickly. But, Plant the seeds in spring, keep the weeds down, get your fodder for the winter. Fodder beat Mash is made by pulping the fodder, extruding it into pellets, which can be fed direct to the animals (particularly pigs), or made up into a mash with hot water.

Supplements are going to be tricky though, and is another reason I'm a fan of 'rare breeds' (traditional breeds), as they are less reliant on getting exactly what they need when they need it.

Moving the Animals to new pasture, for my area this traditionally means salt marshes. Fortunately, we have native rare breeds that can survive these sort of conditions. Put a commercial breed in there, and they won't do well, assuming they can survive. Find out what the traditional breeds in your area are, and why they were used, what adaptations they have, and what other farmers have found successful. Traditional Breeds might have lower yeilds under ideal circumstances, but under non ideal ones, they tend to fare a lot better. And it's a good selling point to the market that tends to buy small holders produce. 'traditional native produce' is almost as good or better, than organic.

We currently use sea weed supplement, about the same price as artifical ones, but the money goes to shetlanders, instead of agrichem's (Say's the Industrial Chemist). As I live not far from the coast, it wouldn't be impractical to gather our own, however the quality would not be as good, or consistent. Also, Salt would not be utterly impractical to gather. For those far from the sea, I don't know what to advise. Salt Licks and mineral supplements are not of course, essential to seeing your animals through the winter, but they help keep them healthy and strong. See that they have as varied a feed as possible with lots of different edible greens if you can would be the way I'd do it.

So, You have feed, but not high quality. Focus the High quality stuff that you do have on Calves and Young Cows, spread it out so that it lasts, small amounts incrementally would be better than a really high quality diet then a sudden shift.

Of course, when you have almost no feed, you start thinning the herd. Leave only Your Prize Bull and as many young cows as you can support, slaughter the rest as soon as you know that you'll be unable to support the herd, to preserve feed for the rest, and ensure that you get the most weight off them. In a Long term SHTF this would be what I'd do with most of the poultry, if I had more than a score or so, let them forage more and keep them mostly on scraps.

Bare in mind this is all coming from someone who's grandfather ran a small holding, not a commercial farm, and I've never been more than a farm hand myself, so take it with a lick of salt, it's probably very area specific, and go find small holders/farmers in your area that'll know a hell of a lot more.




PS: Stuff that I know is fodder but I don't know about: Maize, Never used it, never grown it, never kept any livestock on it. Anyone got any knowledge to share?


PPS: what sort of livestock are you thinking of?


PPPS: I've tried to remove most non-standard norfolk dialect words in that post, if there's any that I've missed, let me know and I'll edit this post to make it clear what I mean.

[phalanx]

PS: Stuff that I know is fodder but I don't know about: Maize, Never used it, never grown it, never kept any livestock on it. Anyone got any knowledge to share?

Not yet, but I'm going to be planting some this season. We're talking about a breed of corn, right?

[Ad'lan]

Yeah, the one that looks just like sweet corn. Met a Dairy Farmer once, grew her own maize and she used to report seeing people stop by the side of the road when the maize was right, and nick a few ears.

She never did anything about it, said the picture of them biting into maize thinking it was sweet corn was worth it.

[ZombieGranny]

One point I haven't noticed about the silage...
My understanding is that there is a small amount of seepage from silage, and that it is extremely poisonous to fish.
Is that true?
-
I feed my ladies a small amount of grains, as it increases their egg production. SHTF we'd want to decide if that production is worth the grain.
If it were in short supply the most productive of them would probably receive it while laying eggs, and the rest kept out of that feed bin area and raising babies to increase the chicken flock.
Even though I have only hens, heaven knows one doesn't have to hunt for male chickens.

[Ad'lan]

One point I haven't noticed about the silage...
My understanding is that there is a small amount of seepage from silage, and that it is extremely poisonous to fish.
Is that true?

Chemical Knowledge and Agriculture COMBINE!.....

Yes and No, Yes, the seepage from silage can be really bad for the local aquaculture, no It's not poisonous. The Seepage from silage is really high in nitrates (and if certain fermentation occurs, nitric acid), and so if it gets into the water, it can cause an algal bloom, the algal bloom then kills off all the plants by blocking the light, and when the bloom dies off, their decomposition uses all the oxygen, causing the fish to die. It's the same reason you shouldn't let fertilizers run off into local water.

Even though I have only hens, heaven knows one doesn't have to hunt for male chickens.

I can't tell, was that a dick joke, are rooster's in surplus supply, or because no matter where you are, you can find some one who's a Cock?

[ZombieGranny]

Ah thanks, Ad'lan.
I had heard it was bad for fish, pleased to know why.
-
No matter how good a chick-sexer is, a male will slip through from time to time.
Also, now that many in the neighborhood know we are one of the places with chickens, every now and then a male will 'fly' over the fence into the yard after dark.

[Ad'lan]

No matter how good a chick-sexer is, a male will slip through from time to time.
Also, now that many in the neighborhood know we are one of the places with chickens, every now and then a male will 'fly' over the fence into the yard after dark.

Oh, how odd. Why don't they eat them? I can honestly never recall having an issue with sexing chicks, but then, the only ones we bred were Rhode Bar, and Rhode Bar crosses, and the males were always barred on their heads as chicks. Rhodebar crossed with creamlegbar gives an autosexing chicken which gives green shelled eggs.

[colinz]

One point I haven't noticed about the silage...
My understanding is that there is a small amount of seepage from silage, and that it is extremely poisonous to fish.
Is that true?

Yes and No, Yes, the seepage from silage can be really bad for the local aquaculture, no It's not poisonous. The Seepage from silage is really high in nitrates (and if certain fermentation occurs, nitric acid), and so if it gets into the water, it can cause an algal bloom, the algal bloom then kills off all the plants by blocking the light, and when the bloom dies off, their decomposition uses all the oxygen, causing the fish to die. It's the same reason you shouldn't let fertilizers run off into local water.

Cheers for the techo explanation Ad'lan, i've been wondering that myself.

Would you only have to worry about silage runoff from a silage pile, as opposed to the baled silage (or balage as it's known locally)? If it's the PAW though, looks like a sileage pile/heap is going to be the way it's done, unless you have the machinery to bale it. Hmm, there's a post-PAW job for me, sileage maker/baler!

FWIW baleage only seems to last about 18 months or so before it starts to go really bad in the bale. Nasty, juicy, funky stuff, although it can be dumped on a paddock/around the base of a tree without seeming to harm anything.

I can't tell, was that a dick joke, are rooster's in surplus supply, or because no matter where you are, you can find some one who's a Cock?

[kalos72]

So since I am a nub at this, I will 'play' dumb here...

I want Dexters, mated pair for calving perhaps, pigs, chickens perhaps sheep or goats not sure.

ASSUME I can pasture them all summer with no issues, which I still need to learn about managing pastures but for scenarios sake lets assume. :p

What would a farmer try to do to feed them over the winter assuming no stocked or store bought feed?

[colinz]

For a Long term SHTF, you'll have to start making your own over winter fodder. In the Old Days almost a 3rd of arable land was for this, due to the amount of horses. Whatever technique you use, you should start learning now. And start putting it into practice now.

Silage...

Hay...

Straw...

Rolled Grains ...

Fodder Beet...

Maize...

Thinking about the animal husbandry side of things... are you able to get 'straws' (literally a straw full of bull cum) for them in your area?
I'd be tempted to get two mature heifers and straw them the first year.
The second year I'd keep the offspring (heifers for breeding, bulls for meat), re-straw the original two, and see what they produce. Once the bulls reach full growth they'd either be meat or sold.
The third year I'd maybe cull (or sell) one of the older heifers and straw all of the other mature heifers (or put a bull across them).

It's hard to explain the process I have sorted out in my head. The idea is that the constant introduction of new genetic material (via the straws) reduces the chance of genetic abnormalities via inbreeding, and being able to use your bred bulls and heifers as breeding stock with little worry of the same (for a few generations anyway). Also the cattle stock is kept 'fresh' as the older ones are being continually culled off for meat, or being sold off for favours/cash.

[Ad'lan]

So since I am a nub at this, I will 'play' dumb here...

I want Dexters, mated pair for calving perhaps, pigs, chickens perhaps sheep or goats not sure.

Never been too fond of Dexters, have you kept livestock before? Keeping a whole Bull for just one Cow seems a waste, though the Cow will be more docile with a bull in with her, and you might need that with Dexters.

ASSUME I can pasture them all summer with no issues, which I still need to learn about managing pastures but for scenarios sake lets assume. :p

What would a farmer try to do to feed them over the winter assuming no stocked or store bought feed?

Move them to winter pastures?

Go out and find whatever feed you can. Maybe a Forgotten Field somewhere has turned into standing hay, See what Local Plants the stock have eaten from their pasture and find and Feed them that. It'll all depend on the animal, the climate, and the area. Look at what people did historically, before the rise of modern agriculture. Though even then, a lot of it relies on stocking fodder and buying it in if the harvest fails. Farming is a risky business, it's not quite the rural idyl it can seem from the city. One Bad year, and you could be eating your seed corn.

Would you only have to worry about silage runoff from a silage pile, as opposed to the baled silage (or balage as it's known locally)? If it's the PAW though, looks like a sileage pile/heap is going to be the way it's done, unless you have the machinery to bale it.

I'm honestly not sure, but I think the liquid is still produced, and must be disposed of, it's just easier to do as it's in the bale. I've never worked or made silage, so I don't know.

Hmm, there's a post-PAW job for me, sileage maker/baler!

Any chance of a guide?

FWIW baleage only seems to last about 18 months or so before it starts to go really bad in the bale. Nasty, juicy, funky stuff, although it can be dumped on a paddock/around the base of a tree without seeming to harm anything.

Actually, provided it's not too concentrated, I reckon it'd be a good fertilizer. The reason run off causes an algal bloom is because all living things need nitrates, and nitrates are usually a major limiting factor in growth, like planting legumes or muck spreading, this returns some of the goodness back into the soil.

Has anyone tried collecting and using silage run off as fertilizer?

Thinking about the animal husbandry side of things... are you able to get 'straws' (literally a straw full of bull cum) for them in your area?

You can order that stuff online now Dude

I'd be tempted to get two mature heifers and straw them the first year.
The second year I'd keep the offspring (heifers for breeding, bulls for meat), re-straw the original two, and see what they produce. Once the bulls reach full growth they'd either be meat or sold.
The third year I'd maybe cull (or sell) one of the older heifers and straw all of the other mature heifers (or put a bull across them).

It's hard to explain the process I have sorted out in my head. The idea is that the constant introduction of new genetic material (via the straws) reduces the chance of genetic abnormalities via inbreeding, and being able to use your bred bulls and heifers as breeding stock with little worry of the same (for a few generations anyway). Also the cattle stock is kept 'fresh' as the older ones are being continually culled off for meat, or being sold off for favours/cash.

Makes reasonable sense, although inbreeding isn't that much of worry (yes, I know, let the Norfolk Jokes abound), for the first generation at least. What I'd be using the straws for is selecting the traits I'd want in my herd. Docility, Good Mothers and Easy Birthing. A good milking line does you no good if you need the vet every spring, and when TSHTF, well, wheres the Vet gonna be then?

In Fact, what you describe is pretty much exactly what my grandfather is currently doing, we have Two Red Pole Cows, we've just sent their two steers off for slaughter, and they have yearlings, and will soon give birth to two calves (hopefully).

[doer]

all the livestock will be EATEN within 30 days of shtf. So this entire post is moot. Man, so many people are going to come out of the cities, starving, as well as the towns as well as your neighbors, no way will you be able to stand them off. They can just shoot your cattle, pigs, horses, from 1/4 mile away or more, nothing you can do about it. They can also slip up at night and use a quiet .22 rifle, or a bow, or a crossbow, or snare them, etc, and there's really nothing you can do about that, either.

[Czechnology]

all the livestock will be EATEN within 30 days of shtf. So this entire post is moot. Man, so many people are going to come out of the cities, starving, as well as the towns as well as your neighbors, no way will you be able to stand them off. They can just shoot your cattle, pigs, horses, from 1/4 mile away or more, nothing you can do about it. They can also slip up at night and use a quiet .22 rifle, or a bow, or a crossbow, or snare them, etc, and there's really nothing you can do about that, either.

You realize that extended power outages or economic troubles are orders of magnitude more likely than a EOTWAWKI scenario, right? Most of us prepare for the most likely disasters in our AO first.

This makes me wish sandfly was still around.

[crypto]

all the livestock will be EATEN within 30 days of shtf. So this entire post is moot. Man, so many people are going to come out of the cities, starving, as well as the towns as well as your neighbors, no way will you be able to stand them off. They can just shoot your cattle, pigs, horses, from 1/4 mile away or more, nothing you can do about it. They can also slip up at night and use a quiet .22 rifle, or a bow, or a crossbow, or snare them, etc, and there's really nothing you can do about that, either.

Doer, you sound like you've put a lot of thought into many SHTF scenarios, what would you recommend?

[KentsOkay]

all the livestock will be EATEN within 30 days of shtf. So this entire post is moot. Man, so many people are going to come out of the cities, starving, as well as the towns as well as your neighbors, no way will you be able to stand them off. They can just shoot your cattle, pigs, horses, from 1/4 mile away or more, nothing you can do about it. They can also slip up at night and use a quiet .22 rifle, or a bow, or a crossbow, or snare them, etc, and there's really nothing you can do about that, either.

Doer, you sound like you've put a lot of thought into many SHTF scenarios, what would you recommend?

Agreed with Crypto.

Currently we have just chickens, ducks, and horses. Provided there was no contaminant, I would let the birds free range and pasture the horses. I'd swap for goats, and maybe a pig. Biggest animals though really would be goats. Meat, milk, alls good to go. I would however hold onto the horses. To darn useful. Anyone coming for 'em will be shot.

If a nuclear winter / fallout / supervolcano conditions happen, you right fooked mate.

[colinz]

All the livestock will be EATEN within 30 days of shtf. So this entire post is moot. Man, so many people are going to come out of the cities, starving, as well as the towns as well as your neighbors, no way will you be able to stand them off. They can just shoot your cattle, pigs, horses, from 1/4 mile away or more, nothing you can do about it. They can also slip up at night and use a quiet .22 rifle, or a bow, or a crossbow, or snare them, etc, and there's really nothing you can do about that, either.

Depends where you are. They do have to find the property to be able to slaughter the animals on it.

Besides, this is self-sufficient living, so who said anything about this forum being solely dedicated to TSHTF/EOTWAWKI/PAW?