New ZS Direction?

[Arch]

I use to be a fairly prolific contributor to ZS. My posts where informative and thorough. However, I've been very unmotivated for the past few months due to a changing atmosphere.

I've noted the following changes (which will be followed up by a question):

1) We had Arbeiters introduced.
2) It seems as if more Moderators were added.
3) There has been more action taken toward members by people with Red and Purple names.
4) The "house rules" seem to get brought in constantly - as if we're all children need to be told (ad naseum) that xyz is a "no-no".
5) There seems to be a movement toward political liberalism in spite of a stated "no politics rule". E.g. liberal or some what politically correct comments go unaddressed but more conservative remarks are swiftly dealt with.
6) There seems to be more allowance of counter-religious beliefs (even when a member makes statements that are stated in terms that just reflect a moral standard) in spite of the "no religion rule".

Very quickly someone will come along and ask me to cite examples. I've been a member here for a couple of years, and have nearly 2700 posts. Just look around, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Now the question...

It would appear that ZS is trying to establish itself as a "matured" and "all inclusive" organization open to everyone. This is great. However, does anyone else notice that this is at the expense of being able to carefully and respectfully discuss issues from a view point that may run slightly counter to an egalitarian mission statement?

Stated another way...

Hypocrisy is defined as "a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially: the false appearance of virtue or religion"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy

Am I wrong for feeling it is hypocritical to declare, for example, religion "off limits" but then to allow people to curse prodigiously and make all manor of immoral comments. Is that not a form of religion?

What about ZS creating a comic book that has a caricature of Jesus Christ?

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=19895



That is offensive to certain religious groups, but apparently that doesn't matter - because - its in the name of "being all inclusive". However, it is not inclusive. Its offensive to some people. Therefore, does this not prove that a situation exists on ZS where the rules feign one belief system but actually do something else?

Regardless of my religious affiliation (or lack thereof) I've noticed a particular dislike for "conservative" or "christian" values on ZS. The above comic reflects this foundational issue. It would have been VERY EASY to pick Mohammed The Profit or Buddha, but Jesus Christ was selected. Is there not a chance that more Americans are Christian than Buddist or Muslim? Of course! So would it not been better (in an effort to be an all inclusive organization) to select a less popular (in the U.S.) deity? Again, I'm using this as an illustration of the hypocrisy here.

[the_alias]

That comic has been around for a long time and I really doubt the intention was to be nasty towards a certain group - the artist creating probably didn't think in as detailed terms as you have just said. If anything it could be suggested he used JC as it was what he was culturally most aware of and is a recognisable figure.

Sorry I just don't buy there is malicious intent at work there.

[Grey Mann]

My only comment is that I don't see in any way how "immoral comments" and profanity can constitute a religion. Morality is perfectly relative and can be defined quite easily without religion in any respect. In the same vein, profanity is a common part of speech. For better or worse, it's not violating any of the across-the-board, categorical and easy-to-follow rules of ZS.

[Arch]

Cited examples....

This was the response to a post in which I used the term "people". Several members pointed out it wasn't an "approved ZS term" because it turned people off and/or dehumanized them. To this I replied that I did not care for their use of the word "fuck" for the same reasons.

Here is what the ZS Staff had to say....

ZS is a charitable organization that is dedicated to education people about the need for personal preparedness. Dehumanizing people by referring to them as animals has been a tactic used by many totalitarian states prior to liquidating them. Therefore we do not allow terms such as people on this forum.

There is not elitism involved in the matter, only a request for good manners from our quests. If you have a problem with this please feel free to PM me to discuss this further. In the meantime I ask that you refrain from using this terminology when posting on this forum.

raptor

NOTE: raptor did not even address my conservative grievance.

This thread is a shining example of why we can't have nice things.

We had nearly four full pages of good, valid, topical discussion on a rather touchy and controversial subject. All it took was one "word" to derail it.

Some people may look down on others for their uses of profanity. Others may look down on people who compare unprepared or uneducated people to livestock. That's not what we do here. Our goal is to educate the public about the importance of self reliance, not to insult them by comparing them to a commodity that's meant to be packed into a truck and taken to slaughter; nor are we here to make ourselves feel better by thinking we're some kind of magical shepherds or sheepdogs that watch over the poor, unprepared masses. There are plenty of other forums and organizations for that kind of thinking.

If you have anything to say on the subject of the original post, feel free to post. If you don't have anything to say on the subject of the original post, don't post! If you want to complain about the alleged hypocrisy of ZS, take it to PM or start a thread in Ask ZS. Just remember, not everyone shares *your* values. We do, however, have a core set of values that we ask our community to follow. If you can't abide by that, maybe you should look elsewhere.

Now, get back on topic. Please.

NOTE: whisk.e.rebellion's response quickly dismisses my conservative grievance, but expounds upon the liberal grievance.

This is just one TINY example of a general attitude here. I only cited this one because it happened today.

[crypto]

to allow people to curse prodigiously and make all manor of immoral comments. Is that not a form of religion?

What the fuck?

No, its not.


Maybe people arent addressing your problems in particular because you keep stirring up butt-hurt threads like this one.

[Arch]

My only comment is that I don't see in any way how "immoral comments" and profanity can constitute a religion. Morality is perfectly relative and can be defined quite easily without religion in any respect. In the same vein, profanity is a common part of speech. For better or worse, it's not violating any of the across-the-board, categorical and easy-to-follow rules of ZS.

I respectfully disagree. Religion is defined as "a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

As such, "a personal set of beliefs and practices" such as being profane or talking about sex, etc is indeed a form of religion. Its not the institutionalized religion we all think of (as in a Catholic Church, Hindu Temple, whatever), but it is still within the context defined as a "religion".

[Arch]

Maybe people arent addressing your problems in particular because you keep stirring up butt-hurt threads like this one.

I don't follow?

[Jamie]

That comic was actually posted more than a year before you joined...

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:58 pm

I think there are probably plenty of things wrong with ZS, but a policy (also around longer than you) for avoiding the word/concept "people", allowing the use of the word fuck, and this kookie new cartoon are not among them...

Jamie - nfa

[crypto]

You are being butthurt for no good reason. And cussing does not a religion make.

Get over your bad self.

[SwampRat]

I have to agree with arch on most of those points. I really enjoy the ZS forum. I am particularly fond of the format it self, very user friendly. But I feel I have noticed a lot of what he is saying and have shared PMs with at least 5 other members about the same kind of thing. The religion comic does not offend me, I find the idea of Jesus being a Zombie to be quite humorous. However I do suppose it is against the rules and offensive to Christians . I wouldn't cry hypocrisy so much as gross oversight though. I will still be around, though I have not decided weather or not I will be renewing my dues this year. Voting with my wallet in a way. Hopefully this thread will come to something and these concerns will be resolved.

[Grey Mann]

My only comment is that I don't see in any way how "immoral comments" and profanity can constitute a religion. Morality is perfectly relative and can be defined quite easily without religion in any respect. In the same vein, profanity is a common part of speech. For better or worse, it's not violating any of the across-the-board, categorical and easy-to-follow rules of ZS.

I respectfully disagree. Religion is defined as "a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

As such, "a personal set of beliefs and practices" such as being profane or talking about sex, etc is indeed a form of religion. Its not the institutionalized religion we all think of (as in a Catholic Church, Hindu Temple, whatever), but it is still within the context defined as a "religion".

I've had this exact discussion on another forum when debating whether atheism was a religion or not.

However you cut it, a choice of vocabulary is not a religion. Refraining from profanity for spiritual reasons would be part of religion or a religious belief--the same as embracing profanity could be--but without a spiritual context, one's vocabulary is completely secular.

[kyle]

Huh. I seem to have missed that there was a cartoon version of the ZS forum rules. How long has that been there?

Anyway, I can respect someone who would have a concern with this caricature of a religious figure. Thank you for letting us know about it. It will be brought up to the forum moderators for discussion.

On to your other more vauge concerns.

The forum rules have not changed. The forum management (Moderators, Arbiters and Administrator) do not have a political agenda. Our volunteers are made up of a diverse group of differing political ideologies.

In fact, we just just as many gripes about how this place it far to conservative. Since we get an equal amount of complaints from both political ends of the spectrum who are highly sensitive about being told that we like to keep ZS political neutral, I feel our volunteers are doing a bang up job.

We appreciate your input however, I don't know how we can improve unless you have any specific examples where you feel that the volunteers have overstepped (or understepped?).

Also, please keep in mind that our volunteers are in no means omniscient. You can help by reporting posts you feel are too Political or Religious for the forum. A bulk of the moderation we do in here is thanks to the forum members themselves who point out problem threads.

[SwampRat]

My only comment is that I don't see in any way how "immoral comments" and profanity can constitute a religion. Morality is perfectly relative and can be defined quite easily without religion in any respect. In the same vein, profanity is a common part of speech. For better or worse, it's not violating any of the across-the-board, categorical and easy-to-follow rules of ZS.

I do also have to agree with this though. I do tend to use some profanity.

[whisk.e.rebellion]

I've noted the following changes (which will be followed up by a question):

1) We had Arbeiters introduced.

Typo? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OST-Arbeiter

NOTE: whisk.e.rebellion's response quickly dismisses my conservative grievance, but expounds upon the liberal grievance.

I didn't see any kind of political bias in my response. If you see one, please, let me know.

[CLEAR CUT]

I swore to myself that I would never post on here again but I totally agree with what you have to say.

I spoke up and was shot down time and time again. Told I was being negative. All done behind the scenes mind you, away from the view of the general poster, and pretty much called a cancer(oh, now I remember the term-Rogue Cop. Ha-fucking Ha!) that needed to be removed. No sweat off my sac really and I could give a flying fuck about what people think about me. Although, truth be told, I'd like to know who had a problem with me and was too much of a pussy to contact me directly to give voice to their concerns. That's really the only thing that still gets to me about the whole thing. People who I thought were my friends on "The Team", who had my personal email address as well as phone number could have picked up that phone and gave me a jingle to ask WTF? BUT didn't. So much for friendship I suppose. I gave my all to this place for more time than I'd care to admit and my reward was being told my "services" were no longer needed.

You're right in the fact that this place has changed and in my opinion, for anyone who cares, not for the better. In my observation it's become elitist in an extreme. Bashing of all kinds has been allowed to take place with seemingly no action taking place. Phony-ness and double-standards abound.

Like I've said before, I've been around here long enough to know the more things "change" around here the more they won't. So much so that I suspect I as well as you will get a PM about this topic and it will all be swept under the rug while things remain unchanged. Maybe if I feel like it I'll read those PM's. But again my suspicions lead me to believe it will be more of the same smoke being blown up my ass telling me I was the one who had it all wrong.

[crypto]

Better?

[Regular Guy]

No religion, to me, means no religion. Mockery of it is likewise unwelcome.
I don't want to see Budda, Jesus or Mohammad. I likewise do not want to see them mocked or denegrated. I've made complaints and I feel that they were addressed in a fair manner even though I prolly annoyed the hell out of whiske and dogbane.
Does ZS in general lean to the left, a little. But it's not the site, it's some members. This is just some of their expressions. If you have beef with what someone says, call them on it. I do. Does it bother me, not really. Is it an agenda or malice, I don't see it.

All in all this site is light years ahead AR15.com and I wholeheartedly thank the mods for this.

[dogbane]

"people" has been a discouraged term here for as long as I can remember. That this is news to anyone who has been around almost as long as I have been is news to me. If a long-time forum user and ZS member uses the term, I can only assume it is being used to troll the thread.

[grennels]

I find the idea of Jesus being a Zombie to be quite humorous.

Can a being who can not die even BE a zombie?

[Grey Mann]

No religion, to me, means no religion. Mockery of it is likewise unwelcome.
I don't want to see Budda, Jesus or Mohammad. I likewise do not want to see them mocked or denegrated. I've made complaints and I feel that they were addressed in a fair manner even though I prolly annoyed the hell out of whiske and dogbane.
Does ZS in general lean to the left, a little. But it's not the site, it's some members. This is just some of their expressions. If you have beef with what someone says, call them on it. I do. Does it bother me, not really. Is it an agenda or malice, I don't see it.

All in all this site is light years ahead AR15.com and I wholeheartedly thank the mods for this.

"Leaning to the left" in the US is, in most of Europe, a moderate to conservative stance by those standards. You have to remember that ZS is very international these days.

[phil_in_cs]

As a religious person, I've learned that many non religious people know so little about religion that the are unaware they are being offensive. Sometimes they care if you point it out to them, but often they do not. There are also anti religious people who delight to offend via snark and subtle jabs.

There's nothing about that it is unique to ZS. If want to let that bother you that's up to you.

[Murph]

Yes, let's all take political correctness to the extreme... Or not... I'm feeling lazy today.

[Regular Guy]

As a religious person, I've learned that many non religious people know so little about religion that the are unaware they are being offensive. Sometimes they care if you point it out to them, but often they do not. There are also anti religious people who delight to offend via snark and subtle jabs.

There's nothing about that it is unique to ZS. If want to let that bother you that's up to you.

Believe it or not, I too am a very religious guy and do find this world in general to be offensive. In comparison to the world, ZS is very tolerable even with the minor slights.

[SwampRat]

I find the idea of Jesus being a Zombie to be quite humorous.

Can a being who can not die even BE a zombie?

I'm gonna let this go, so as not to get talley whacked by the 20 or 30 mods looking at this topic, lol.