NNY2011WCT! February 4-7

[Festus Hagen]

didn't know I needed to add a set to a webbing set up.

You definitely don't. My reference to tree straps and toggles was specifically about whoopie slings. You don't have those. I used nothing but the webbing that was included with my DD hammock for about a year, nothing wrong with it really.

[Festus Hagen]

I wanted to make one thing reasonably clear about this trip... my first year out happened to be "the night of -17", and I was unprepared for the overnight temperatures (I was layering an old 45 bag inside an older 30 bag, it was just not enough). I chose to stick it out.... "death before dishonor" and all that, and vowed it would never happen again. That said, the wise thing to do would have been to pack up and get a motel room. At the last trip we had someone do just that when he had a water-bottle malfunction in the middle of the night and got properly soaked... he came back and completed the trip but wisely avoided freezing to death in soaked clothes on the one night.

With talk of bringing multiple people... just bear in mind that they are your responsibility. Don't get me wrong, if someone is freezing out there, multiple people will be there to lend a hand as far as offering spare layers, pouring hot cocoa down their throat or the like... but ultimately if it's just not working out it's on the driver who brought them to get them to safety and comfort... if that means giving up on the trip for themselves that's the way it goes.

The informational website NFA went to the trouble of putting together lists as a minimum standard a zero-rated sleeping bag. To me, a zero-rated bag could be a start but odds are you will need a lot more than that... like a zero bag INSIDE a 20 bag. I went with a -30 bag layered with a thick polarfleece bag inside. This trip is no joke, lows of zero or a little colder are common but -25F or colder is not out of the question!

[Bster13]

I agree with everything Festus said, and to add... there are very few sleeping manufacturers who tell the truth about their bag's temperature rating.

A bag from Walmart (Ozark Trail, Coleman, etc.) rated to -20F is generally not going to do you much good south of 0F as was said before.

And even with the expensive manufacturers (Marmot, Western Mountaineering, North Face etc.) I would not fully trust their ratings. I'd spot the bag at least 10F.

On top of all this... I did not know I "sleep cold" until the first winter camping trip. Even if the average Joe would be fine in a 0F bag from a reputable company, I am not. I need a -10F.

For the winter camping trip I have a -25F Western Mountaineering bag:
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/in ... ntentId=43

I hope to see as many people there as possible....we'll own the place! (because no one else bothers haha)

[Festus Hagen]

I agree with everything Festus said, and to add... there are very few sleeping manufacturers who tell the truth about their bag's temperature rating.

A bag from Walmart (Ozark Trail, Coleman, etc.) rated to -20F is generally not going to do you much good south of 0F as was said before.

I say, old chap. Bla bla bla.... yep this is very true.

[Jamie]

I sleep very warm, and I will be layering the black MSS bag with a a big cheap rectangular bag (and spooning/snuggling with Kevin)...

If in doubt, bring an extra bag or the warmer bag or both...it can get really cold here...I've seen a morning temperature of -38F at my house, and it could happen again...

Jamie - nfa

[Festus Hagen]

I've seen a morning temperature of -38F at my house, and it could happen again...
Jamie - nfa

Dare to dream, my brother.... dare to dream.

[Jamie]

I started a thread for discussion of the proposed potluck dinner during the WCT: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=74702

[Bster13]

If it hits -38, I think I might sh_t myself..... then again it'd probably free quickly, so not a big mess to deal with. *shrugs*

[laditek]

I agree with Festus and Bster. My first trip I had my zero Wiggy's bag layered with a cheap 20 degree bag and still needed my layers and a space blanket to keep warm. Keep in mind that with a tent its as important whats under you as what your bag is rated to. My first year I used 2 closed cell foam pads and a few wool blankets and am pretty sure thats part of where the cold seaped in. Now I use a Zero Wiggy's nested with my overbag for a negative 20 as well as a fleece liner to fill up all the air space in my sleeping bag. Plus the downmat for ground insualtion is amazing.

In purchasing new boots for this year I went straight for negative 40 just to be on the safe side...I don't know what kind of tests they put these things through but they certainly aren't standard.

[Horatio_Tyllis]

This trip seems like a ton of fun. I would like to attend, but will be slightly short on gear. I have cookwear, clothes and can get a good sleeping bag. What I'd need is crash space I can share, (I don't have a good tent, especially for cold weather) and perhaps someone in the area who wouldn't mind me showing up thursday night at like 11pm and lend me a couch til morning. (I want to sleep somewhere warm after a 7 hour drive before heading out.) Anyone think this is possible? If so, then you may well have one of your Canuck ZS bretheren on your hands.

My house is a shithole filled with: junk and mess, cats and dogs from our local shelter, an occasionally grumpy wife, and an early-rising 8 boy...if that sounds OK, then we've got a ratty couch down by the woodstove that you can have for the night, and I'll even bring you coffee in bed Friday morning before heading to camp...I'm not trying to dissuade you, just laying out the horror that is my house in advance so as to avoid recriminations and lawsuits later...

Jamie - nfa

That would do nicely. I will go this weekend and look into gear. If the numbers add up I will see you in february. I want a good bag and a pair of non steel toed boots.

[Bster13]

I'm a gear whore, as are others on this thread. Feel free to give us $ amounts you want to spend on pieces of gear and maybe we can find a good deal. GL!

[CrackMunk]

I totally agree. I always knock off 20 off the rating on a bag maybe a little much but I like to be sure. I will be sporting a 0 rubber bottomed bag with a 20 bag inside, thick fleece liner. padding top down: blue pad(maybe 2)wrapped in a space blanket wrapped in fleece wrapped in double layer of quilted fiber filled material with a poly canvas mat under that, on the floor of tent I will have a tarp blanket, then a ground cover under tent. Also thinking about some fux fur I have laying around for floor( I have a fabric store worth of material). Trying to do it with out getting to much more gear as I had to get a new tent. Do you think this is adequate. What would you add? What is everyones options on "air pads/ mattress" for winter camping? I thought it would make you colder as its harder to warm up the air in them. I will also have a heater, but thats not going to help the cold from seeping up from the ground and I'm a cold sleeper.

I do understand that I am responsible for my friends safety and comfort and if need be take them home , If I don't think their gear is adequate I will give them gear, make them get gear, or not let them come. I will not risk anyones life for the sake of fun and they know if I'm out they are out. I am already making a list for them to make sure they have the right clothing + spares. And again I will take all tips on getting ready and will not take offense to if some say, or everyone says no to my bringing them.

edit: with your permission Rick I would like to print out your post and stick it on the frig so everyone can read it.
edit again: pad set up is about 3" thick will compress some.
this is the pad set up. And if the SHTF might have to make do with whats on hand what a better way to test it.

[CrackMunk]

In purchasing new boots for this year I went straight for negative 40 just to be on the safe side...I don't know what kind of tests they put these things through but they certainly aren't standard.

yes on the -40 boots. Made the mistake of thinking reg hiking boots for the Frontier Town trip would be good. NOT, good thing I brought my -40 boots, over kill, but had to get them at night.

[Festus Hagen]

edit: with your permission Rick I would like to print out your post and stick it on the frig so everyone can read it.

It would be an honor to finally be published someplace

Regarding ground pads... true "inflatable" pads aren't much use IMO, air currents inside them freeze you almost as well as a hammock with no UQ. Back in my ground-dwelling days I had some success using a closed-cell foam (blue wal-mart pad) under a self-inflating pad... the self-inflaters use open-cell foam inside which has "R-value". The Downmats seem to be the shizzle but they are $$$

[CrackMunk]

Regarding ground pads... true "inflatable" pads aren't much use IMO, air currents inside them freeze you almost as well as a hammock with no UQ. Back in my ground-dwelling days I had some success using a closed-cell foam (blue wal-mart pad) under a self-inflating pad... the self-inflaters use open-cell foam inside which has "R-value". The Downmats seem to be the shizzle but they are $$$

just what I thought. Tom reminded me we have 2 self-inflating pads witch are buried at the bottom of the camping closet. didn't know they have "R-value". is it really measurable or just cus your off the ground. I have a ton of open-cell foam! enough to make 2 good full-sized pads maybe 3 med. Does anyone know if it needs to be sealed like the self-inflating or, would it work by its self? Maybe a nylon covering?
Downmats was priced only if we win the lottery! this is the one thing some of my Friends are lacking and asked about. witch I told them 1-2 pads,space blanket & some ins. I also told them they should to do some research.
going to get Tom some poly-pro wicking layers this weekend. Dicks has them on sale for $12 +. Might get some more for myself since I wear them all the time at work.
the pic was of the impromptu UQ for the hammock,went down to 30 and still toasty but went with the 20 bag for UQ the last trip didn't like the way the pad felt under the hammock.

@Bster13: Love the bag, Want one! But not anytime soon.

[Jamie]

Another thing to consider, above and beyond conserving your own heat, which can be difficult, is to make use of outside heat sources...

Kevin survived last year's trip only through a Faustian snuggle-fest with me (I'm like a woodstove once I go to sleep)...

In the past I've used one of those candle-lanterns suspended inside the tent to take the edge off of the cold (although you need to be sure to suspend it low enough that you don't die in a nylon blaze of temporary warmth)...

I have one of those tiny heater buddies, which use the 1lb propane tanks to heat a tent like nobody's business (I generally save it for emergencies )...

Drinking nalgene of hot beverage right before bed can warm you from the inside, and a hunk of cheese or mouthful of peanut butter or pepp-stick can give your body fuel to burn a bit warmer through the night (stuffed cabbage and boiled eggs don't work as well )...


Jamie - nfa

[Bster13]

hand warmers....

[laditek]

Regarding ground pads... true "inflatable" pads aren't much use IMO, air currents inside them freeze you almost as well as a hammock with no UQ. Back in my ground-dwelling days I had some success using a closed-cell foam (blue wal-mart pad) under a self-inflating pad... the self-inflaters use open-cell foam inside which has "R-value". The Downmats seem to be the shizzle but they are $$$

just what I thought. Tom reminded me we have 2 self-inflating pads witch are buried at the bottom of the camping closet. didn't know they have "R-value". is it really measurable or just cus your off the ground. I have a ton of open-cell foam! enough to make 2 good full-sized pads maybe 3 med. Does anyone know if it needs to be sealed like the self-inflating or, would it work by its self? Maybe a nylon covering?
Downmats was priced only if we win the lottery! this is the one thing some of my Friends are lacking and asked about. witch I told them 1-2 pads,space blanket & some ins. I also told them they should to do some research.
going to get Tom some poly-pro wicking layers this weekend. Dicks has them on sale for $12 +. Might get some more for myself since I wear them all the time at work.
the pic was of the impromptu UQ for the hammock,went down to 30 and still toasty but went with the 20 bag for UQ the last trip didn't like the way the pad felt under the hammock.

@Bster13: Love the bag, Want one! But not anytime soon.

Inflatables in general are a great way to go since they do have a higher R-value then just foam alone. In my family's "boy scout camping" period the only thing we had was the self-insulating ones that were used all the time, including down to zero. The down mats are amazing because of the down layer inside the air gap which makes it that much higher of an R-value. They are expensive, but if you save for awhile they are incredibly versitile. I fill mine part way in the summer with the hammock and they also make great impromptu guest beds. The whole idea is to use a small gap of air to insulate you from the ground without creating say a breeze like under the hammock. Its a common construction technique to leave a bit of an air gap as part of the building's insulation too.

theLight has a small propane heater too. Generally it only gets use in extream conditions or if we want to raise the temperature for getting changed.

[laditek]

hand warmers....

plus 1

is anyone buying bulk before the trip? I'm giving my reusables a go but its always a good idea to have these

P.S. Apperantly everytime I try to put "plus 1" it gets converted to british...wth?

[Bster13]

I still have an entire box from Sam's club on a pre-WCT trip we did near Carmel, NY. haha.

R-values of various types of mats....I guess you have to look at the R-value vs. the thickness since you could layer a few of the thinner pads for the same thickness as a big inflatable:

http://sectionhiker.com/sleeping-pad-r-values/

[Rush2112]

NFA, do you have any of those medical chests left? If you do, I'll put some money aside for one.

[Festus Hagen]

Tom reminded me we have 2 self-inflating pads witch are buried at the bottom of the camping closet. didn't know they have "R-value". is it really measurable or just cus your off the ground. I have a ton of open-cell foam! enough to make 2 good full-sized pads maybe 3 med. Does anyone know if it needs to be sealed like the self-inflating or, would it work by its self? Maybe a nylon covering?
(

Sure they do, manufacturers like Thermarest list R-value in their specifications. They work because of the air trapped by the open-cell foam, and because the foam does not compress too much in an inflated mattress. Open cell by itself would tend to compress and lose R-value from your bodyweight.

[laditek]

I still have an entire box from Sam's club on a pre-WCT trip we did near Carmel, NY. haha.

R-values of various types of mats....I guess you have to look at the R-value vs. the thickness since you could layer a few of the thinner pads for the same thickness as a big inflatable:

http://sectionhiker.com/sleeping-pad-r-values/

Thats a great link! That Ether Thermo 6 looks really nice with a 6.9 R value and cheaper then the Downmats. It says something when they are sold out of most stores.

[Festus Hagen]

hand warmers....

plus 1

is anyone buying bulk before the trip? I'm giving my reusables a go but its always a good idea to have these

P.S. Apperantly everytime I try to put "plus 1" it gets converted to british...wth?

ZS word filter...