Helping a gas station owner sell gas in the PAW

[PistolPete]

We recently had a topic brought up that offered some value I thought, but as many topics do it seemed to break our rules. So I'm going to present the same topic under a different premise.

Society has collapsed along with the electrical grid. Perhaps it was zombies or a superflu or a global economic collapse. Whatever you choose is fine. But several months in you find yourself arriving at a small gas station. When you pull up, dreadfully low on fuel, the owner comes forth and asks if you want to trade for fuel. Of course you do!

The owner has secluded himself only emerging from his station to chase away looters and scavengers. However, his supply of twinkies has run out, and now he needs to trade his fuel supplies for food and other goods. This man is just the owner, and he's not very technical. He doesn't know a good way to get the fuel out of the underground tanks. I facilitate trade, he has been using a sand pail on some rope to dip into the tank and fill jerry cans. This isn't a very efficient method.

You get the feeling he wants to trade off his gas and move on, and you think you could get some fuel in trade for you helping engineer a solution to efficiently get the gas from the tanks. How would you propose to the owner he arrive at a solution to get the gas up for sale? What methods could one use in a world without electricity to move a large quantity of fluid forth several meters? Any thoughts, approaches or ideas are welcome.

[Regular Guy]

Garden hose and a hand pump, one of the squeeze kind. Maybe not the fastest but there is a very low risk of ignition.

[Tater Raider]

Interesting work-around.

The owner should know what tools to use (hand crank pump of the no spark variety - some examples) and if he don't have one on hand he should know where to get one. He should also know lowering a metal bucket into an enclosed container filed with fumes that the slightest spark will set off is A Very Bad Idea™. Since this person knows none of this it strikes me that he's a squatter and I am curious as to what he did with the actual owner.

Check his name-tag to see if it says Ed Gein.

I'd head on down the road until out of fuel (assuming I don't come across another gas station) and then switch to the bicycle so as to avoid being another victim while staying mobile.

I know it's not the answer you're looking for Pete, but given the scenario it's what came to mind.

[raptor]

Note if there is no electricity why do you need fuel since there is not battery power to start an engine and hence no need for fuel.


The small rotary pumps will not have the ability to draw fuel up beyond about 10 feet so if the tanks are underground they are typically 3 to 5 feet underground and anywhere for 5 to 30 feet in diameter. Thus a small rotary pump will not get much fuel.

If you have a generator, go to the main electrical panel and identify the circuit that powers the gas pumps. Turn off all other CB and wire the generator to that CB and crank up the generator. Viola you have fuel. Most gas pumps are 240 volt (though some are 480 volt) but 30 amps at 240 will likely be adequate for most pumps. If you have a very large inverter 3kw capable of producing 240 power you could also likely do this assuming you had a 120 amp or larger alternator on your engine.

If you have a working vehicle you should also have 12 volt power. If you have 12 volt power you can run a 12 volt fuel transfer pump. They make emergency systems like this. However this would not be difficult to assemble with many of the components at a gas station. If you assemble it be sure to use an explosion proof electrical motor safe for gasoline pumping operation.

For instance you could screw the various fuel dispenser hoses together to get a hose long enough to reach deep into the UST. The pump could be a diaphram trash pump typically found around car washes. You would have find reducers to fit the pump but again that should not be problem.

http://www.pumpsandmeters.com/Emergency ... stems.aspx






Finally the easiest thing to do is before you lose power pump the fuel in an above ground storage tank and gravity feed the dispenser.

[mystic_1]

If I was going to help out in a situation like this, the first thing I'd be looking at is creating a security plan.

Once we have the fuel flowing, there will potentially be lots of people who want it. If I were to help the owner get the gas flowing without considering what happens afterwards, all I'm doing is handing him the rope with which to hang himself.

The security plan will likely shape the rest of my approach as it will help define what resources are available and what liabilities exist.


Now, the original post says "without electricity" so one must assume that in addition to the grid being down, there's no backup power generation available.

That pretty much limits you to mechanical pumps. Unless a purpose-made mechanical fuel pump is available, you're left with cobbling together a field-expedient one out of whatever is on hand. I could see knocking together a few one-way valves and some sort of piston or bladder being used to create a large version of the squeeze-bulb-siphon-pump design, just better hope your materials are impervious to gasoline. OR, if there's a hand-pump style water well in the area, i'm sure that could be adapted, but given the all-metal construction of those it'd be use-at-your-own-risk!

Now if some sort of backup power generation IS available, you have many more options. Some abandoned or scrap vehicles will all have electric fuel pumps. As pointed out those don't have a lot of lift capacity, so chain them together. First pump lifts the fuel let's say two feet, deposits it into a bucket. Second pump draws from that bucket and lifts it another two feet, into another bucket. Repeat as necessary. It's a bit of a Rube Goldberg contraption, but hey, it's the end of the world!


mystic_1

[PistolPete]

So mostly I was trying to address the subject (how to get gas up from tanks) while keeping the topic legal. Too often people on the forum immediately default to "It's the PAW and I want to loot shit", I was trying to offer a topic that allows discussion of the technical aspects without discussion the looting or scavenging aspects.

The owner should know what tools to use (hand crank pump of the no spark variety - [url=http://www.thecarycompany.com/containers/drums/drum_pumps/rotary_pumps.html]

Well, lots of owners don't actually work at the businesses they own. For purposes of discussion this guy owns the station but wasn't directly involved in it's day to day operation. So he has goods to offer but needs help with the distribution and delivery of those goods.

Note if there is no electricity why do you need fuel since there is not battery power to start an engine and hence no need for fuel.

The failure of the electrical grid isn't going to affect batteries. My car will start just fine if the power is off at my house.

Turn off all other CB and wire the generator to that CB and crank up the generator.

This is a good idea and good info. I've found in the past that connecting a generator to an electric panel isn't necessarily straightforward. It's not like you can just plug it right in.

Thanks for the input so far.
[edit] Holy crap, that 12volt purpose built pump is $1,500. I may not be adding one to the stuff I keep in my trunk.

[raptor]

Pete check your PMs.

Edited to Add:
I have some digging around and it is difficult to find a manual pump of any kind that can lift a liquid more than 20 feet. There are even fewer manual pumps that will lift gasoline that height.

It looks like some means of supplying a powered solution is necessary to empty the tank. Although obviously you could pump some of it out with a hand pump.

[Tater Raider]

Pete check your PMs.

Edited to Add:
I have some digging around and it is difficult to find a manual pump of any kind that can lift a liquid more than 20 feet. There are even fewer manual pumps that will lift gasoline that height.

It looks like some means of supplying a powered solution is necessary to empty the tank. Although obviously you could pump some of it out with a hand pump.

It will be slow but it will be a lot safer than dipping a pail.

[raptor]

Pete check your PMs.

Edited to Add:
I have some digging around and it is difficult to find a manual pump of any kind that can lift a liquid more than 20 feet. There are even fewer manual pumps that will lift gasoline that height.

It looks like some means of supplying a powered solution is necessary to empty the tank. Although obviously you could pump some of it out with a hand pump.

It will be slow but it will be a lot safer than dipping a pail.

That and the access point would be the fuel fill which is normally a 3 inch to 5 inch hole so the pail has to be slender and small.

[Blasphemous]

Wire up several external fuel pumps together and run them off of an idling vehicle. Run the fuel lines from the pumps into the tank and then from the pumps to the vehicle.

Do the same thing with internal fuel pumps, only lower them into tank and run the power and fuel lines up so that vehicles that make it there can power the pumps and fuel themselves up.

It could be done with junkyard fuel pumps, EFI vehicles would be best to get the pumps from. Otherwise, some sort of rotary cranked pump rigged up to a bicycle to pump it more quickly.

That's the best I can come up with in the PAW.

[Hoppy]

could you seal then pressurize the tank ( with an inert gas) and use a siphon tube dipped blow the fuel level to lift the fuel.

smaller tube would mean less fuel lifted, which means less weight to lift, which means less effort to lift it.. correct?

[AgentBlack]

Well bucket? Torpedo away...pvc pipe, cap, foot valve, and a rope (no metal parts= no sparky).
http://www.alpharubicon.com/primitive/wellbucketspitfire.htm
this one has a homemade valve with metal parts, but you could use a pvc foot valve (if you had one). Or just use stainless steel hardware, less likely to spark.
Make the pipe long enough and you could fill a jerry can in two dunks.

[Tperkins]

Well bucket? Torpedo away...pvc pipe, cap, foot valve, and a rope (no metal parts= no sparky).
http://www.alpharubicon.com/primitive/wellbucketspitfire.htm
this one has a homemade valve with metal parts, but you could use a pvc foot valve (if you had one). Or just use stainless steel hardware, less likely to spark.
Make the pipe long enough and you could fill a jerry can in two dunks.

I would definetley be partial to an idea like this. Or a PVC "Bucket" composed of a 4"-5" Diameter end cap, a 6"-12" long tube same diameter, with a way to haul it up. I dont exactly know what the inside of a fuel storage tank looks like, but a well bucket might be too small, whereas something like a PVC "bucket" might work better if it will fit in the access hole.

[aa1pr]

I once knew a shady character who had an electric fuel pump mounted in his car with about 25 feet of gas line, he would park over the gas tank covers, drop his line the other end fed into his down tube and got his gas that way

maybe something like that would work

[crypto]

One option I havent seen discussed is the following:

a pump will force fluid up farther than it will suck it up.


A submersible sump pump might be your best bet, and easily enough found in basements all over. I'd plug it into a long extension cord, leave it unplugged, lower it into the tank with a rope, route my outflow hose to whatever large fuel container I have, then move as far away as possible, and plug in the sump pump to the 110v inverter in my car.

[Sealegs]

If you work around an open fuel tank, pumping for instance, keep in mind that any equipment you use, from flashlights to radios need some thought. In this case you would be closer to the safety regulations on a tanker than you would the refuel area on camp.

The reason why submersible fuel pumps and other purpose built equipment costs money is because it's guaranteed not to kill you. [Barring "SU", Stupid Usage.]

I you can get a pump running off of 12V you should fill barrels and dispense via hand pump from there. Everyone might not catch your "NO SMOKING" sign and accidentally blow you to kingdom come if you stand around pumping from a large and open tank close to their vehicle.

Too little coffee to delve into the pump system improvisation discussion right now so I'll hold off on that. I do remember this post from another forum way back though. Where a fuel pump was jury rigged, don't know if you can get to the pump cover directly on your site though.

Roughly middle of post.
http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/for ... ostcount=1

[Kommander]

If one happened to have the materials an Archimedes screw might be workable.

[Graybeard]

how abought hacking power grid to pumps rigging small genrator to power the pumps?

[DarkAxel]

Well bucket? Torpedo away...pvc pipe, cap, foot valve, and a rope (no metal parts= no sparky).
http://www.alpharubicon.com/primitive/wellbucketspitfire.htm
this one has a homemade valve with metal parts, but you could use a pvc foot valve (if you had one). Or just use stainless steel hardware, less likely to spark.
Make the pipe long enough and you could fill a jerry can in two dunks.

Gasoline has an undesirable effect on a lot of plastics. I'm not sure about PVC, but I know what happens when you put gas in a Dixie cup or Gladware (it gets brittle and cracks of its own accord).

Here's a little something I discovered from a shade-tree mechanic:

When he welds or cuts on gas tanks (the auto kind), he fires up a car, puts a hose over the tailpipe, and puts the other end down in the tank. The CO displaces the oxygen inside the tank. No oxygen, no fire.

[jamoni]

I think this thread should be locked down for discussion of how to make a bomb.
Anything that builds up static electricity will eventually spark. Anything that uses electricity can spark.
In other words, unless something is designed to work in the fuel environment, it will probably spark and that would be bad. This includes manual pumps.
Best plan is to restore power to the pumps already in the tanks.
Chances are most stations have a plan to do this.

[MacAttack]

For the truly desperate. And I mean really desperate.

You could float the fuel out.
Fuel floats on water.
Drop a simple garden hose down in the tank all the way to the bottom.
Slowly, by gravity feed at best fill the tank with water. As the water fills the tank the fuel will rise to the top. Hopefully to a level that an 'in tank' 12 volt fuel pump out of a modern car could be dropped in and used to pump fuel out.

Just remember that the water going into the tank will mix slightly with the fuel at first. You will have to wait a day or so after adding the water to let the two settle down and separate.
Even then I would use a glass container to visually inspect each gallon as I added it to my vehicle or above ground tank.



For the truly industrious you could even uncover the tank, cut the straps holding it down to its cement footer pad and fill the hole its in with water. The whole tank will float up. Once its floating you can add gravel to the hole under the tank as it floats up. Eventually you will have a full tank of fuel up at ground level ready to be lifted or rolled onto a flat bed.

But heck that's just fantasy land crazy.

[KJ4VOV]

I can't believe that no one here ever worked at or managed a gas station besides me...

Back in the 90's when I managed a station and 3 bay shop in NYC we had a hand pump for pumping water out of the bottom of the tanks. Very simple setup using a lever action hand pump attached to 12 feet of 3/4" copper tubing. Slip it down the tank fill and pump away.

(Note: just about all underground storage tanks will develop water in the bottom from condensation, and that water has to be pumped out when it reaches a certain depth)

[crypto]

I can't believe that no one here ever worked at or managed a gas station besides me...

Back in the 90's when I managed a station and 3 bay shop in NYC we had a hand pump for pumping water out of the bottom of the tanks. Very simple setup using a lever action hand pump attached to 12 feet of 3/4" copper tubing. Slip it down the tank fill and pump away.

(Note: just about all underground storage tanks will develop water in the bottom from condensation, and that water has to be pumped out when it reaches a certain depth)

Are all tanks less than 12 feet deep?

Whats at issue is the inability of a vacuum pump to lift liquids beyond 20 feet or so.

[KJ4VOV]

For the truly industrious you could even uncover the tank, cut the straps holding it down to its cement footer pad and fill the hole its in with water. The whole tank will float up. Once its floating you can add gravel to the hole under the tank as it floats up. Eventually you will have a full tank of fuel up at ground level ready to be lifted or rolled onto a flat bed.

But heck that's just fantasy land crazy.

Crazy is right... The smallest tank I've ever seen in a gas station is 6,000 gallons and weighed around 12,000lbs. Empty. Oh, and it was covered by a minimum of 6" of steel reinforced concrete.

Your typical current commercial tank is going to be 10,000 gallons or more, will be encased in its own concrete vault, the top of the vault itself will be at least 3 feet below the concrete pavement and the concrete will be anywhere from 8" to 10" thick.

Good luck with that flotation plan.