My personal experience with Krav Maga

[Brandt]

Wasn't sure if this should be put in Personal experience of survival or here... Please feel free to move it if I put it in the wrong subforum.

Before I get into the actual story, I would like to take a minute to explain my mentality and philosophy on fight or flight scenarios. I believe that the art of flight, the ability to quickly and effeciently disengage/escape a dangerous situation, is just as important as the art of fighting. Because of this mind set, I am have been training in the arts of Krav Maga and Parkour. I want to add onto these Eskrima.

Krav Maga: The Isreal Special Forces martial arts.
General principles include:
-Counter attacking as soon as possible (or attacking preemptively).
-Targeting attacks to the body's most vulnerable points such as the eyes, jaw, throat, groin, knee etc.
-Neutralizing the opponent as quickly as possible by responding with an unbroken stream of counter attacks and if necessary a take down/joint break.
-Maintaining awareness of surroundings while dealing with the threat in order to look for escape routes, further attackers, objects that could be used to defend or help attack and so on.

Taken from Wikipedia, but they hit it on the head. I initially started Krav Maga to protect myself and my gear because of my job. I am a DJ and find myself in some pretty janky parts of town and out until the wee hours of the morning. Krav Maga is the easiest and the most effective hand to hand combat system I have ever seen. It covers everything from hand to hand combat, blunt and edged weapon disarms and gun disarms. Krav Maga has changed my life and saved it.

Eskrima: The Philipino martial art of baton and knife fighting. This martial art has been around for hundreds of years and is taught to the Philipino military. The focus is put on the use of batons and long knives/machetes as extensions of the body. I want to learn Eskrima so I can incorporate this into my Krav Maga. If I disarm an opponent of their knife or baseball bat or crobar, I want to know how to use it in the best way possible.

Parkour: This is the art of flight: The quickest and most efficient way to get over an obstacle to easliy run away from or chase after someone. To me, this is as imporant as Krav Maga or Eskrima. 90% of the time a situation can and should be talked down. In the rare event it can't b talked down or a fight could mean death while flight could mean life, Parkour is very helpful.

This is why I am currently training in two arts and trying to learn the other. In today's society it's a good idea to know how to defend yourself and runaway if needed. Since I've sarted preparing for a natural disaster/PAW, I've realized it is eve more important; Especailly being able to escape.

With that said, here's a story of mine from a few months ago. It made me feel good and realize my training has been working:

Awhile ago I went out with a friend to help him bring home a new flat screen TV he bought from Best Buy. While we were in there, I noticed a guy we graduated with who had stolen my PSP and radio faceplate from my car. He was caught on camera and I got my stuff back, but we still don't get along to this day and I try to ignore the kid. Even though I was ignoring him, he didn't have the same idea when he saw me.

HIm and his buddy started to walk behind us a few steps and snickering "fags" and what not. We ignored them and that pissed em off. Eventually, the guy who stole from me walked right by and shoved his shoulder into my back... I was getting angry but I calmly told him to leave us alone or we were going to get them kicked out of the store for harressment.

As I was walking away to get an employee he got back in front of me, called me a pussy and shoved me hard. I stumbled back a few steps and warned him if he touched me again, he was going to be looking up at me from his back. He said, " You aren't gonna do shit" and tried to shove me again, from here it was just habit.

Right when his hands made contact with my chest, i shot my arms up between them, shoved them away and stepped in for a move similar to The Reap from MCMAP (youtube it if you don't know.) He was instantly on the ground and it was not a graceful decent. He was pissed and I told him while he was getting up if he came at me again I was going to knock his ass out. He came at me with a right hook and I used what KM fighters call "bursting". That's when an oppenent attacks, you jump forward while blocking the attack with your left forearm and striking the face or throat at the same time. You forward momentum is the power behind your strike.

Once I was past his guard and had punched him in the face, I grabbed his right arm to lock him close and just started wailing on his face with my right elbow. I hit him 5 or 6 times and then he went down. whole thing happened in under 10 seconds.

I didn't knock him out, but he was damn close to it and was bleeding profusely from his nose. Earlier when he had shoved me, an employee saw it and started to run over and got there after it was done. And of course, when the fucker saw the employee come over, he started screaming that I attacked him first. But, my friend backed me up and the employee saw it from the start anyway so the kid was given some paper towels and him and his friend were escorted from the building. The manager told them if they didn't leave as soon as they were outside he was calling the police. The manager walked them to his car and watched them drive off.

I know this was a long post, especially for an event that lasted around 10 seconds, but I just had to tell you guys about it. Krav Maga WORKS. After it was all said and done, I felt great. I was calm when the fight was escalating and I tried to avoid it, but the instant I felt threatened and he attacked me, I was able to stay collected and end the fight in under 10 seconds. That's an ego boost for sure.

I'm telling you guys, find a KM center near you and take it. Just a few classes will make all the difference and it really does help your confidence and keep you more level headed when a conflict pops up. My friend who was with me now wants to take Krav Maga so I have a practice partner now.

[CipherNameRaVeN]

Great story and well written.

I have taken couple of classes of Krav Maga. I wish I could take more. Definitely one of the most effective martial arts there are. Probably the type people should be learning if they want to be able to protect themselves. Other types of Martial Arts, though also effective, are more for tournaments and such.

I am also a big fan of Parkour. I just think it is a cool sport. This was the first Parkour video I ever saw, and I still think it is the best one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxv8SS1XU_8
You may also like Damien Walters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MeiwLLZjDo

[Stab74]

Hey cool story. Been thinking about taking KM classes myself.

[true]

+1 for Krav Maga. I haven't used the KM fighting techniques myself in a real situation yet - but the awareness, muscle/flexibility, psyche, and the confidence you radiate also helps in defusing and avoiding situations. And the psyche and confidence part still works, 25 lbs after the fitness dissipated...

Others get the same from other arts, I am sure. But unless you do part of your training in true free form and under severe stress (like most good Krav dojos do), please please do yourself a favor and go to a Krav seminar once just to feel the difference.

+100 on de-escalation as first tactic.
+1000 on escaping as second tactic (where possible, yada yada).

Well done. Too bad it had to come to blows, but congrats on getting training that worked for you. Keep an eye open - and I suggest you talk to the police about this incident. Before he talks to them, or comes back for more.

As for secondary martial art, offensive knife is clearly lethal force, and the legal clean-up therefore seems much worse to me. I've felt more inclined to go towards grappling (BJJ, etc) where Krav is relatively basic, or even more full contact sparring, such as Thai boxing- but to each his own. I never thought much about Parkour as self defense before, maybe I'll have to look up a class.

[the_alias]

Hi there,
I started a thread on this where people can share such stories, maybe ya'll would like to cross post this into it, more info for everyone the merrier
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=63785

/shameless self promotion

[Brandt]

As for secondary martial art, offensive knife is clearly lethal force, and the legal clean-up therefore seems much worse to me. I've felt more inclined to go towards grappling (BJJ, etc) where Krav is relatively basic, or even more full contact sparring, such as Thai boxing- but to each his own. I never thought much about Parkour as self defense before, maybe I'll have to look up a class.

Krav Maga is a mixture of a lot of martial arts. Kick boxing, Muy Thai, BJJ and Karate are a few that I remember. Half of my Krav lessons are "ground defense and grappling" classes. This is straight BJJ. KM takes a little of each martial arts, uses the best moves from each and boils it down to it's key components. Think of it as a lot of the martial arts you know without all of the fancy moves. Quick, easy, and effective without having to train your body to do hard moves/techniques that can take years to learn. That is the ideaology behind KM.

One of the great things about the KM class I took was the indepth look we had on self-defense laws in our area. Depending on what the person comes at you with, we are taught to respond in certain ways. No matter what, never start a fight though.

1)If a person comes at you bare handed, knock him down. If he comes at you again, warn him that you will knock his ass out if he continues and do so if he does not stop.
2) If they come at you with a blunt weapon (bat, poolstick, etc.) disarm them of the weapon and knock them out with it.
3) If they come at you with a a knife or gun, disarm them of it and back away. Don't ever drop the weapon. Tell them you will use it if they continue their attack. If they attack, kill them. As fucked up as it may seem, you can get in more trouble maiming or crippling someone then killing them. For whatever reason, a lot of people who shot a gy in the leg or stabbed them in the hand after disarming their attacker WHO STARTED IT get sued and lose. The "Make My Day" and other similar laws allow and specify LETHAL force. Maiming and crippling are not lethal. Death is leathal and legal. Always warn, and always go for the kill shot in these situations.

In Oklahoma and Texas (where I live and go to school), If someone pulls a gun on me, I can legally disarm them and shoot them with their own gun. Doesn't matter if I don't have a permit or am not of age to own a gun. There can and will be no civil or federal recourse against me. It's even more dry cut if they attack me at my house or while I'm in or around my car. Look up the "Make My Day" law and housing self-defense laws In Oklahoma and Texas.

This is why I want to know how to use a knife and baton (blunt weapon) properly. I don't want to go at a dude with a knife, with the intentions of killing him in self defense and him surviving and sueing me for fucking up his vocal cords and causing him mental issues. Or, having a broken pool stick and accidently breaking the dudes neck or shoulder when all I wanted to do was knock him out. Now I'm getting sued because I crippled the guy trying to defend myself. As shitty as it is, I would probably lose that case. This is why I want to know how to properly use a weapon.

[Abel]

While I completely understand your point of view on legality and lethal force Brandt, cracking someone in the noggin with a crowbar or pool cue can be considered use of lethal force, regardless of intent to simply render the person unconscious.

On-Topic: Good story, and bonus for attempting to de-escalate the situation.

[true]

As for secondary martial art, offensive knife is clearly lethal force, and the legal clean-up therefore seems much worse to me. I've felt more inclined to go towards grappling (BJJ, etc) where Krav is relatively basic, or even more full contact sparring, such as Thai boxing- but to each his own. I never thought much about Parkour as self defense before, maybe I'll have to look up a class.

Krav Maga is a mixture of a lot of martial arts. Kick boxing, Muy Thai, BJJ and Karate are a few that I remember. Half of my Krav lessons are "ground defense and grappling" classes. This is straight BJJ. KM takes a little of each martial arts, uses the best moves from each and boils it down to it's key components. Think of it as a lot of the martial arts you know without all of the fancy moves. Quick, easy, and effective without having to train your body to do hard moves/techniques that can take years to learn. That is the ideaology behind KM.

Yep, I know the background and philosophy of KM. I should have been more explicit that I've trained it, too, for a couple of years. It sounds like you go to a good KM place; where do you train? In the three organisations I trained, ground work was basic at best. Every time a BJJ or shootfighting guy showed up, I learned A LOT...

One of the great things about the KM class I took was the indepth look we had on self-defense laws in our area. Depending on what the person comes at you with, we are taught to respond in certain ways. No matter what, never start a fight though.

Very true. We did some of that, too. But again, we had a slightly different focus and emphasis, it seems:

3) If they come at you with a a knife or gun, disarm them of it and back away. Don't ever drop the weapon. Tell them you will use it if they continue their attack. If they attack, kill them. As fucked up as it may seem, you can get in more trouble maiming or crippling someone then killing them. For whatever reason, a lot of people who shot a gy in the leg or stabbed them in the hand after disarming their attacker WHO STARTED IT get sued and lose. The "Make My Day" and other similar laws allow and specify LETHAL force. Maiming and crippling are not lethal. Death is leathal and legal. Always warn, and always go for the kill shot in these situations.

This is why I want to know how to use a knife and baton (blunt weapon) properly. I don't want to go at a dude with a knife, with the intentions of killing him in self defense and him surviving and sueing me for fucking up his vocal cords and causing him mental issues. Or, having a broken pool stick and accidently breaking the dudes neck or shoulder when all I wanted to do was knock him out. Now I'm getting sued because I crippled the guy trying to defend myself. As shitty as it is, I would probably lose that case. This is why I want to know how to properly use a weapon.

I am not sure a lawyer would agree with your schools interpretation and most likely not their teachings. I was advised to keep my 4D flashlight for emergency lights, not for self defense, and to carry potentially improvised weaponry only if there was a very good and valid non-defense reason for it. One's intent and plans/preparations are huge in determining the outcome of any legal proceedings. But I am no lawyer, and laws differ.

Either way, and despite Castle Doctrine, I don't think I personally would feel good about ending a life if I could have safely found another way out. (big if, I know). I agree it sucks that there is potential liability in justified self-defense, but I am not sure the opposite would be a better way. I think there are people on the board with personal experiences here, so I'll defer to them. I'm just an internet ninja...

But, remember I agree with 99% of what you said in your first post and congratulate you on your training and your good results in protecting yourself. Krav Maga rules, and You Rock!

[Dingo McPhee]

2) If they come at you with a blunt weapon (bat, poolstick, etc.) disarm them of the weapon and knock them out with it.
3) If they come at you with a a knife or gun, disarm them of it and back away. Don't ever drop the weapon. Tell them you will use it if they continue their attack. If they attack, kill them.

Self-defense requires a proportional response. Once you've disarmed your attacker, I'm not sure a court would consider using their weapon on them (or any weapon for that matter) as self-defense unless their bare-handed attack could be seen as deadly force (like if they outweigh you by 100 pounds and they're a former Navy SEAL).

Your jurisdiction may be different - you mentioned Texas/Oklahome and I think the laws down there are pretty much "shoot everybody." Also I'm not a lawyer, so no one should take this as legal advice.

[T-Boon]

I think that falls into the "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six" category?

Though down here if i bring a weapon to a fight (even in self defence) i`m pretty much screwed.

[Brandt]

Either way, and despite Castle Doctrine, I don't think I personally would feel good about ending a life if I could have safely found another way out. (big if, I know). I agree it sucks that there is potential liability in justified self-defense, but I am not sure the opposite would be a better way. I think there are people on the board with personal experiences here, so I'll defer to them. I'm just an internet ninja...

But, remember I agree with 99% of what you said in your first post and congratulate you on your training and your good results in protecting yourself. Krav Maga rules, and You Rock!

Thanks man, that means a lot to me

Trust me when I say I don't look forward to ending a life. If that was the case, I would have hurt the guy in Best Buy a lot more then I did. One of the biggest things we are taught is proportionate response. If he comes at you with bare hands and could at most bloody your nose, that's all you can do back to them. If they come at you with a blunt weapon which COULD kill but would more then likely break bone or knock you out, knock them out. With a knife or gun... That can and will kill you even if they don't intend to do it, they just have it to look tough. At this point, in Oklahoma and Texas, you are within your legal boundaries to kill them if they come at you. But, we are always taught to disarm and then disengage. Then, warn them that if they continue the attack you will use lethal force to protect yourself. Reason for this is that, if they were crazy enough to pull a gun or knife on you, they will attack you to try and get the weapon away from you and try to use it again. That, or they will try to kill you with their bare hands. Either way, the proportionate response, after warning them you will use lethal force when you disengaged, is to use lethal force.

I guess one thing I need to clear up is I DO NOT advocate this advice to be used everywhere. Learn the self-defense laws in your area of residency before you go out and do what works in Oklahoma and Texas.

Your jurisdiction may be different - you mentioned Texas/Oklahome and I think the laws down there are pretty much "shoot everybody." Also I'm not a lawyer, so no one should take this as legal advice.

Exactly and spot on We read and went over many cases where people have been in these situations and nothing happened to them because their response was directly proportional to the threat put against them. Again, this is in Oklahoma and Texas. The "Gool Ol South" looks at self-defense laws a lot more radically then most places.

[T-Boon]

This thread inspired me to look up Krav Maga near me. (there has never been one near me)

Lo and behold I found a new one just opened up.

http://www.tacticalkravmaga.org.nz/

I`m going for a look next week

[donjulio]

Anytime I hear the word parkour, this is now the first thing that I think of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_mpNUl3swk

[Brandt]

^^^ I somehow knew it was going to be The Office before I clicked it. Makes me laugh everytime.

And True, where you located if you don't mind me asking?

[DeadCanadian]

You picked a great set of arts there!

I train in Jujutsu and FMA together and we fight like Krav Maga but don't practice as hard to be honest. We don't want just fit 18 year olds as students and we aren't spring chickens ourselves.

I agree that Krav Maga is not so much a style but a collection of styles as is a lot of modern combatives. People who still train in bare feet, uniforms, and too much kata are doing a diservice to their students if they advertise "self-defense" in their ads.

A caution about BJJ though, the focus in the majority of schools is weaponless ground fighting and you can spend a lot of time training in elaboret techniques you don't need on the street. Better to train at a school that teaches ground fighting as part of self-defence, you aren't trying to tap anyone out on the street you are trying to get back up and away.

[Brandt]

A caution about BJJ though, the focus in the majority of schools is weaponless ground fighting and you can spend a lot of time training in elaboret techniques you don't need on the street. Better to train at a school that teaches ground fighting as part of self-defence, you aren't trying to tap anyone out on the street you are trying to get back up and away.

+1 for you martial arts that you take. Good stuff man.

Yeah the place I train at has "Ground Defense" classes which teach you how to get out from underneath someone who has taken you to the ground. They don't teach a lot of joint locks or chokes. They do some of the basic ones, but they stress the only time it is smart to use those is if it's 1 on 1 and the attacker starts choking you out or pulls out a weapon when they get you to the ground. If it's more then one person or they just tackle you to the ground, we are taught ways to get on top so we can strike the face/hit them in the balls to be able to get back up and into a defensive standing position.

[aus.templar]

I dont know and can't find any KM places near me otherwise I'd do it

EDIT: I googled 6months ago and found nothing. I google now and there is like 6 websites for melbourne...

[Cpt. MelonBuster]

Damien Walters gives me hope for an Assassins Creed movie. That's all I have for input.

[T-Boon]

I dont know and can't find any KM places near me otherwise I'd do it

EDIT: I googled 6months ago and found nothing. I google now and there is like 6 websites for melbourne...

Ha, i had the exact same thing, still havnt managed to get to my one, but plan on it soon.

[OkieZombies]

A caution about BJJ though, the focus in the majority of schools is weaponless ground fighting and you can spend a lot of time training in elaboret techniques you don't need on the street. Better to train at a school that teaches ground fighting as part of self-defence, you aren't trying to tap anyone out on the street you are trying to get back up and away.

+1 for you martial arts that you take. Good stuff man.

Yeah the place I train at has "Ground Defense" classes which teach you how to get out from underneath someone who has taken you to the ground. They don't teach a lot of joint locks or chokes. They do some of the basic ones, but they stress the only time it is smart to use those is if it's 1 on 1 and the attacker starts choking you out or pulls out a weapon when they get you to the ground. If it's more then one person or they just tackle you to the ground, we are taught ways to get on top so we can strike the face/hit them in the balls to be able to get back up and into a defensive standing position.

The one good thing about training BJJ though is that if you can learn to get out of all the elaborate submissions, getting out of basic chokes and armbars is incredibly easy. Competition is a safe way to improve skills - you just can't let it be a mental barrier if you ever need those skills. And trying to not be taken down by a person who wants to do nothing but take you down is a great way to improve take-down defense.... most people in life aren't going to be trained wrestlers trying to take you down, but if you can stop a trained wrestler - it's a lot easier to stop a clumsy drunk. It doesn't work the other way though.

[michaelspants]

I was a vale tudo (BJJ, muay thai, sambo hybrid from brazil) student for 11 years. I can say through personal experience that V.T. is terrific for a ring, but practical survival application in a life/death situation is limited in that the fight training itself is designed for a ring, a ring with rules. Sure, V.T. is deadly, but we're not allowed to gauge eyes, hit people in the throat, target knees, sternum, vital areas of the body which would inevitably lead to major injury, death, or incapacitation. So in a practical sense, KM has a few major ups on a fight style dedicated to knockout or submission in that KM isn't designed for a knockout, it's designed to end it completely in one form or another (for lack of better terminology). I can't wait to take my current training and apply some KM into it. I've met a guy who had been an instructor for a few years, sparred with him, I was impressed to say the least.

[Devilnuts]

I loved KM for the year I studied it in NJ. Unfortunately there are no accredited instructors on Okinawa.

the coolest thing about Krav is how easy it is to learn. It's no so much a "martial art" as it is a fighting system, like MMA. But instead of focusing on competitive habits, it emphasis is all on pure ass-kickery. For rape-prevention, Women's self defense, law enforcement, etc there is nothing better because you can become proficient in a matter of weeks. You do not need to meditate or study under some old bearded guy for fifty years to be able to hurt people with this system.

A word of caution for those thinking about studying Krav Maga: there are quite a few schools out there who claim to teach "krav maga" without actually being affiliated with any KM organizations. At best, this can mean that their instruction is either unofficial or out of date; at worst they could be capitalizing on the popularity of Krav Maga and teaching you garbage!

IKMF, IKMA, KMAA or KMWW are the endorsements to look for. A school that is an affiliate of those organizations is required to stay current with official Krav Maga curricula as it is developed in Israel. Anything else may not be the real deal.

This was my instructor in Jersey:
http://www.amazon.com/Krav-Maga-Essenti ... 0312331770


And here is a demo video from the school I attended:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRFR7HB5Kho

It's interesting you mention KM in conjunction with MCMAP, because the two systems are fundamentally very similar, which is the reason I chose it over MMA. The IKMA is/was actually working with MCMAP in Quantico to get some KM integrated into the Marine Corps syllabus, but I don't know where they are with that.

One thing I like Krav for over MCMAP is the retzev training, the continuous attack and defense utilizing both arms and legs. They are not combatives so much as training your mind to naturally and instinctively seek out and exploit your opponent's weaknesses and overwhelm him with a flurry of shit from every direction. It's pure aggression, and that's the kind of stuff that wins fights.

[Rebelac7]

After putting his hands on you, talking should of been over. Overt actions like that cause the only communications to be as im yelling to submit while causing defensive pain. Talking is just a primitive form of sizing people up, if there is no talking that d bag would of known you'r all business. Great job on defending yourself physicaly, there are a lot of sheep out there that can't. at them.

[dangerkrue]

Thanks for posting this. I've been taking krav for a little over a year myself and fortunately, have not had to use it other than practice. The self confidence and knowledge gained are worth 100X what I pay for lessons.