EMP, Why bother?

[SeerSavant]

I'm thinking that even if the EMP effects are minimal on vehicles and whatnot, what about the electrical grid, all those power lines.

Repairing a power loss when most of the parts are imported depends on how widespread the damage is, how many transformers etc.

I suggest prepping for a extended loss of power. If you can live off the grid you'll be fine, but if the city powers your home, best be ready for some uncomfortable days. Hospitals and emergency generators don't actually last too long, I would think a few days to a week.

I dunno, tired and getting ready for wondrous sleepytime... But it strikes me that murphy's law is in effect here. and whatever is the hardest parts (Transformers, gasoline depots, etc.) to replace will be the ones that fail...

Night...

[KnightoftheRoc]

OK, the Bonfire of the Vanities seems to have died down some, so I'm going to toss another log on the fire- y'all can thank me later

Having debated the vehicle/EMP issue to death, it seems that the things we'll need to worry about most are going to be plugged into the wall outlets of our homes. This, because of the many miles of unshielded conductors taking the power TO our homes. OK, rather than debate this further, let's just assume that's correct.

Now, I install a generator in my home, and a switch box to cut my system off from the grid, so my generator doesn't back-feed into it. In normal circumstances, I'm all set, right? At least till the fuel runs out. But, with an EMP event, say a billion jigawatts fired directly at my flux capacitor, or whatever they use to measure this stuff- I'm so lost on that end of it now, I can't even find my compass- I can expect a humungous power surge from the city grid. The voltage will shoot up in almost no time at all, faster than any circuit breaker I can afford to install will be able to react to. So, let's say I pull the cut off switch in my basement- a good, old fashioned knife switch assembly, and remove my home from the power grid.

Now that it's isolated, my home's wiring is supposedly not long enough to create the same kind of problems, and since I over-sized my wiring when I built, I'm not worried about the wires overheating. Am I right, so far?

If so, then let me pose this question- how much of an air gap will be needed at a disconnect in order to prevent a capacitance-induced spark jumping to my otherwise disconnected home? I know it can happen, I'm just wondering what kind of a voltage would be pushing a charge- let's assume a medium level "worst case" scenario- I'm not DIRECTLY at ground zero, but still within a pretty heavy area of effect.

Industrial disconnects use bakelite seperators to prevent an arc between phase conductors, and usually an air gap to prevent arcing along switch contacts (the ones that would touch when 'ON'). Even at 440V/3ph, these aren't that big, and don't need to be- but they also aren't made to withstand enough juice to light up Vegas coming in all at once on EACH wire, either. So, since some of you guys have done some serious book time on this subject, what do we do to protect our homes from an EMP on the grid causing problems? Just for my example, let's say we have advance warning on the actual EMP taking place, just not an exact idea of how much juice to expect at any given point.

If I used a couple of knife switch boxes in series, would that do it? Remove a length of the wires- how long? Is the stuff coming down the wall off the pole going to be OK, or a fire hazard?

Flux capacitor references aside, this is a serious question I'm asking.

[CryHavoc]

Just for my example, let's say we have advance warning on the actual EMP taking place, just not an exact idea of how much juice to expect at any given point.

If I used a couple of knife switch boxes in series, would that do it? Remove a length of the wires- how long? Is the stuff coming down the wall off the pole going to be OK, or a fire hazard?

Flux capacitor references aside, this is a serious question I'm asking.

If you have advanced warning, you can flip all of your breakers ahead of time. And that'll pull you off the grid. But that still might not help. You can still get a current buildup in your wiring in the walls. Depends on how long they are and how big the EMP is. It's an induction current that builds up.

Besides, that will only save your house. If it's a big EMP that blows out transformers and junction boxes that the electric company has to come out and fix, that could take a long time. If it's nation-wide, banks will be down, gas stations will be down, grocery stores will be down, the stock market will be down, etc... Luckily most phone lines are fiberoptic, but then the phone company won't have power.

A lot of houses have wiring in metal pipes at least up to the breaker box. That should shield some if the wiring catches fire.

[KnightoftheRoc]

I'm posing the question with the assumption that A; I'm not building a Faraday Cage around the house, and B; whatever happens, my wiring either will or will not handle it- I'm not building a Faraday Cage around every wire, either. And EMT or Romex would require re-wiring the entire house. Let's just assume there's a buttload of voltage coming down the line, and I want to keep it out.

[Browning 35]

I'm posing the question with the assumption that A; I'm not building a Faraday Cage around the house, and B; whatever happens, my wiring either will or will not handle it- I'm not building a Faraday Cage around every wire, either. And EMT or Romex would require re-wiring the entire house. Let's just assume there's a buttload of voltage coming down the line, and I want to keep it out.

Yeah, but if you're THAT worried about it why not just build a Faraday Cage?

It's not like they're hard to build yourself or like the materials would cost all that much.

Building a Faraday Cage (*Click*)





I see what you're saying.....you're just playing Devils Advocate and asking 'What if...', but building a Faraday Cage out of materials that you could get at Home Depot or your local hardware store seems like it would be the best answer to the problem and then you wouldn't have to wonder about it.

Just saying....:shrug

[mzmadmike]

A faraday cage like that works fine for nearby lightning strikes, and possibly a high altitude nuke not too close by.

For a dedicated EMP weapon or a massive CME, you need solid copper and solid grounding.

Sort of like the home fire extinguisher vs an OshKosh pumper.

[KnightoftheRoc]

Browning-
I'm not building a Faraday Cage large enough to put a house in. If I was going to go THAT far, I'd just build a steel house, and call it done. My interest is in preventing the wiring of a home from becoming the source of ignition, and burning it down.
For the few items I might want to shield, well, I'm a plumber by trade- I can just slap them into some steel or copper pipe with end caps, and I'm done for the day. Probably as cheap, if not cheaper, than the boxes of screening, and a LOT less of my time involved. Or, if you want it to be a bit more transportable than a length of 6" steel well casing, make the container out of PVC piping, and coat it with aluminum foil or flashing, and duct tape the living crap out of it.

[spacecase0]

My interest is in preventing the wiring of a home from becoming the source of ignition, and burning it down.

most things have fuses and circuit breakers, most things should not cause a fire.
if from a nuke, the pulse is quick, it should not burn any thing down.
if you are worried about the sun, then unplug everything and turn off the breakers outside (maybe cut the wires) and it should not make to much current inside your house to melt just the disconnected wires,
and with a solar event, you should get some warning.

[Browning 35]

Browning-
I'm not building a Faraday Cage large enough to put a house in. If I was going to go THAT far, I'd just build a steel house, and call it done.

I realize that.....I'm just saying that if there's an EMP blast I just don't think that much could be done about the wiring in your house.

As far as I know unless you were completely offline, using your own electricity (large generator) and in a concrete bunker or something that has some shielding then you're pretty much screwed as far as my understanding of it goes. I'm no expert or anything and I only have a very basic understanding of how this all works, but it seems like if such an event does happen you're going to just have to accept some loss as to your standard of living just because the thing's gone off.

You're just basically doing the best you can to protect the smaller electrical items that could make your life a little easier.

My interest is in preventing the wiring of a home from becoming the source of ignition, and burning it down.

In the few things I've read about it fires weren't really ever much of an issue with EMP, most everything electrical in nature just quit working. Like Spacecase above me said as far as houses go that's what fuses and breaker boxes are for if there was some sort of electrical surge that could potentially cause a fire.

For the few items I might want to shield, well, I'm a plumber by trade- I can just slap them into some steel or copper pipe with end caps, and I'm done for the day. Probably as cheap, if not cheaper, than the boxes of screening, and a LOT less of my time involved. Or, if you want it to be a bit more transportable than a length of 6" steel well casing, make the container out of PVC piping, and coat it with aluminum foil or flashing, and duct tape the living crap out of it.

If those would work then more power to you.

Most of this is hypothetical and there's a very good chance that none of this crap will happen anyway.

[Rhep]

What if a nation put a nuke on a satellite and sent it into orbit? If they blow it and it duds they can try to claim the sat failed and work with that, but if it does send a good sized pulse we could be in for some hurt.

Would a satellite even be a viable means of delivery?

[ZombieGranny]

I would think this isn't the place to discuss how to create an EMP.
Probably falls under the "No discussion of illegal activities", yes?

DH had his eye on a generator for the freezers; but his car is having problems, so not this payday.

[Rev]

I would think this isn't the place to discuss how to create an EMP.
Probably falls under the "No discussion of illegal activities", yes?

DH had his eye on a generator for the freezers; but his car is having problems, so not this payday.

I think it’s in the clear since it's obviously something a private individual would be unable to do and entirely in the realm of nation states and mega corporations. I still don't understand what the point is however since how an EMP happens is a lot less important than what it will do and how we'll deal with it.

[rpc]

What if a nation put a nuke on a satellite and sent it into orbit?

That's essentially the only way to cause an EMP over a very large area. The weapon basically needs to be detonated in space. It can't be delivered with an airplane--it requires a rocket.

Traditionally (that's not really the right word), one would use a missile with a trajectory high over the enemy territory. But there's no reason why you couldn't have it orbit the earth as many times as desired before detonating it.

[mzmadmike]

A conventional explosive EMP bomb could be built and delivered anywhere. The question is, where would it be taken?

NY, LA and DC are the most likely targets. It wouldn't make much tactical sense to blow one in Memphis, say.

Of course, if some group had a LOT of them...

[DarkAxel]

What if a nation put a nuke on a satellite and sent it into orbit? If they blow it and it duds they can try to claim the sat failed and work with that, but if it does send a good sized pulse we could be in for some hurt.

Would a satellite even be a viable means of delivery?

That's actually doable, if they can maintain secrecy before the blast.

The Soviet Union had a weapon they called FOBS (fractional Orbital Bombardment System). Basically, it was a missile (an SS-18 "SATAN" IIRC) that would put a warhead into orbit, and its flight path would mimic that of a satellite. The target couldn't be discerned from the missile's orbit, and it had no range limits. Combine that capability with the fact that the Soviets used the SS-18 to launch RORSATS (Radar Ocean Reconnaissance Satellites) that were powered by nuclear reactors and covered as Cosmos satellites, then you can see why American planners were extremely nervous during the Cold War.

It is entirely possible that a nation could launch a NUKESAT (nuclear satellite), cover it as a reactor-powered non-military satellite, detonate it, and could possibly avoid retaliation by claiming the non-existent reactor malfunctioned and exploded. Of course, this is a worst-case scenario.

All the above aside, the Rev is right. How the EMP came to be is not really important (unless it leads to nuclear war).

Also, after studying up on EMP (again), I have come full circle to my original EMP preps. Worst case says that EVERYTHING electronic might be fucked up after an EMP or CME, so it is best to prep for a world without the wonderful gadgets and gizmos that eat up my free time, make my life easier, and cost me serious cash. I can get along without juice. I've done so in the past, and the only real discomfort I experienced was mental.

Even if everything electronic was to stop working tomorrow, I would advise everyone to remember that electricity is only a little over 100 years old. I would also advise everyone to remember that an EMP/CME won't destroy the written word (digital storage tech is younger than electricity tech). Books will survive. Man will survive.

As far as preps go, here are my thoughts:

To survive we need food, clean water, shelter, and transportation. Search for ways of storing and preparing food that doesn't rely on electricity. Find ways of filtering water that doesn't rely on electricity. Find ways to shelter yourself (this includes heating) that don't rely on electricity. Find a means of transportation that doesn't rely on electricity (like bikes, horses, and such). Life without juice isn't unlivable. Our ancestors did it for most of human history. There's a lot of SHTF/PAW scenarios (NOT EMP/CME) that require you to go without juice, so preparing for a life without electronics is a good idea.

Hey, who's gonna run the power plants when all of the operators are shambling around moaning for brains?

[grennels]

Effective EMP weapon would be detonated at much higher altitude than a typical satellite orbit.
EMP weapon would be most effective at appx. 200 miles above target.

[spacecase0]

Effective EMP weapon would be detonated at much higher altitude than a typical satellite orbit.
EMP weapon would be most effective at appx. 200 miles above target.

yes, and iran has been testing them, not a good sign

[Rhep]

That's actually doable, if they can maintain secrecy before the blast.

That was what I meant, it looks a lot less dangerous than some missile flying toward New York. It also makes countries like Korea able to hit us, since orbit is well, global.

[marknvegas]

EMP may be coming as soon as late 2012 early 2013:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20100826/9 ... -in_1.html

Quote: "Astronomers are predicting that a massive solar storm, much bigger in potential than the one that caused spectacular light shows on Earth earlier this month, is to strike our planet in 2012 with a force of 100 million hydrogen bombs.

...NASA was warning the massive flare this month was just a precursor to a massive solar storm building that had the potential to wipe out the entire planet's power grid.

Similar storms back in 1859 and 1921 caused worldwide chaos, wiping out telegraph wires on a massive scale. The 2012 storm has the potential to be even more disruptive."

Like all theories and predictions, this one has debunkers and supporters among the scientific communities. I guess we will know for sure in a couple years....

[Bunsen]

I don't mean to be a dick, but that same story (a few different versions from different outlets, but the same sources and basic content) has been posted several times. It's based on misquoted sources, distortions, sensationalism, and some outright bullshit. The prevailing expectation among solar physicists is that Solar Cycle 24 will be weaker than average, and given our greatly increased awareness and early warning capability, its consequences down here on the ground are likely to be minimal. The only thing that's likely to be noticed more than in previous cycles is the disruption of satellite signals, since so many of us directly use them in GPSes and such.

This is also a good opportunity for me to give this dead horse another whack: CMEs and nuclear EMPs are not the same thing and their effects are fundamentally different*. CME impacts are only capable of affecting extremely long conductors, like long-haul power lines, and things that are outside the atmosphere, like satellites. Anything on the ground and small enough to fit in your house is totally invulnerable to a CME unless it has a DC connection (an AC transformer provides isolation from DC) to miles of wire. The only threats to your personal and household devices from a CME are satellite service interruptions and power outages.

*Yes, a nuclear EMP's E3 component behaves similarly to the geomagnetic heave induced by a CME. But what most people think of when they hear "EMP" is the E1 RF pulse that can damage small-scale objects. They then they confuse that with CMEs, and say flamingly retarded things like "Anything we rely on that is sensitive to magnetic fields, like computers and iPods, could be affected" [David Reneke, this article which was quoted by marknvegas' linked story and many others].

[Thorne]

since Phil locked the thread on the article I thought Id post my response here...

...force of 100 million hydrogen bombs.

Pfft. It sounds so big but it's FUD. There will be that much energy in a cloud that is greater in diameter then the earth, the atmosphere and magnetic field will grab charged particles and channel them to earth. How much energy does it take to ionize all of the n2 and o2 gas in a miles long aurora borealis/australis? I'd bet lots.

NASA was warning the massive [...]NASA's been watching

NASA's been justifying their budget

Similar storms back in 1859 and 1921 caused worldwide chaos, wiping out telegraph wires on a massive scale.

massive but unspecified. Do you think they saw it coming?

"The general consensus among general astronomers (and certainly solar astronomers)"[...]quoted astronomy lecturer and columnist Dave Reneke as saying.

I can't find the words to describe how broken the logic is here, but I'm glad that it came from someone who talks and writes for a living over someone who actually does the science.

No one really knows

QFT

Dr Richard Fisher, director of NASA's Heliophysics division, told Reneke the super storm would hit like "a bolt of lightning", causing catastrophic consequences for the world's health, emergency services and national security unless precautions are taken.

Hearsay! and please note the broken quote. Thanks for the lack of context from the only one mentioned in the article who actually has real science behind their statements.

The reason for the concern comes as the sun enters a phase known as Solar Cycle 24.

O..M..F..G!! it's the 24'th cycle of the sun since Samuel Heinrich Schwabe figured out that the sun cycles in 1843. I don't think I need any more proof, we're all going to die

Most experts agree, although those who put the date of Solar Max in 2012 are getting the most press.

And as an expert (which I am because I agree with the last quoted statement ) I'm going to tell you:

The sun could burp and wipe us out at any moment.

A tin foil hat won't save you.

http://spaceweather.com/

http://www.solarcycle24.com/

[spacecase0]

the way I see it,
it has nothing to do with the solar cycle,
try reading this,
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archi ... lowers.pdf
it is long (almost 100 pages), and the guy is a little nuts,
but the science that he refers to is real and is good.
basically he is saying that it is the magnetic filaments that will be conducting the energy from the particle cloud to the sun, and that will create more sunspots and mass ejections that will effect the earth...

[Bunsen]

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/boeingwhistleblowers.pdf
it is long (almost 100 pages), and the guy is a little nuts,
but the science that he refers to is real and is good.
basically he is saying that it is the magnetic filaments that will be conducting the energy from the particle cloud to the sun, and that will create more sunspots and mass ejections that will effect the earth...

I tried, but I ran out of tinfoil about 15 pages in. It quotes a lot of real science, but it's scattered over all kinds of marginally related fields and the suggested connections are the sort of nonsensical crap that could only be imagined by someone who has no idea what he's talking about. As best I could figure, the central suggestion is that some kind of interaction between the Local Interstellar Cloud and the sun will cause an increase in sunspot activity.

There's a whole hell of a lot wrong with that idea, but two things stick out above the rest: First, the sun has been traveling through that cloud for something on the order of 100,000 years, and will still be in it for another 10,000 or 20,000 years. Second, the magnetic fields in that cloud are orders of magnitude weaker than the solar fields in the inner solar system, and likewise for the gas density and other properties. There's a reason we didn't know much about that cloud until the Voyager spacecraft started getting outside the sun's area of magnetohydrodynamic influence: the cloud does fuck-all to things deep within the heliosphere. When you start talking about having an effect on the dynamics of the sun itself, the idea becomes even more preposterous.

There's no reason to believe that either of those facts will change within the next several millenia, other than the conspiracy theory bullshit that the guy started with. That places this idea in the company of rainbows in my drinking water and HAARP mind control in my estimation.

[G_Ruby]

Hey folks,

I was wondering if anyone knowledgeable about nuclear power plants and E.M.P.s could comment on the viability of this article's claim from Survival Blog?

http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/09/effects_of_an_emp_attack_or_se.html

SYNOPSIS: The author of the article claims that a weaponized E.M.P. or naturally occurring Solar C.M.E. could knock out all redundant safety systems within the nuclear power plants effected by an event, and as a result, would create a sort of ultra-lethal "nuclear smog", killing millions and rendering the Eastern Seaboard of the United States unlivable for 300+ years.

Without considering similar effects on other nuclear power plants worldwide, it is safe to say this would be sort of an End Game.